Risk...acceptable Or Unacceptable?

[robert72]

1989 was a bad year I remember a death and a number of very serious injuries to top riders and other riders ,that's just one year looking back,I think several riders died in the 80's and a several paralysed too.

[Humphrey Appleby]

True. I don't know if it is still the case but the ACU handbook used to state that if you take up motorcycle racing you will get hurt, possibly seriously. That is a plain fact that the competitors accept and the spectators ought to.

There are risks involved in motor sport, but I don't accept they can't be reduced. F1 used to be incredibly dangerous and everyone said it was the decision of the drivers to participate, but the drivers eventually made a stand and it was demonstrated that the sport actually could be made substantially safer.

 

Obviously bikes are inherently more dangerous than cars as it's difficult to surround them with external protection, but I'm sure it's not beyond the bounds of possibility to look at better protective equipment, consider engine power, consider crush zones on the straights, even look at track surfaces.

[E I Addio]

There are risks involved in motor sport, but I don't accept they can't be reduced. F1 used to be incredibly dangerous and everyone said it was the decision of the drivers to participate, but the drivers eventually made a stand and it was demonstrated that the sport actually could be made substantially safer.

 

Obviously bikes are inherently more dangerous than cars as it's difficult to surround them with external protection, but I'm sure it's not beyond the bounds of possibility to look at better protective equipment, consider engine power, consider crush zones on the straights, even look at track surfaces.

 

 

 

Yes , but that's not the point of issue at the moment. The point under discussion is whether there are more serious injuries today than in the past and if so whether its due to more powerful bikes.

 

F1 has been made safer principally by two things. The first is more run off areas and crash absorbent materials materials to absorb the impact, and the second, and perhaps more important is that technological developments have allowed cars to beak up on impact while the drivers compartment remains solid. This again is aimed at absorbing impact. Plus of course things like fire resistant overalls, but done of this applies to speedway.

 

Motorcycle racing including speedway has had advances in things like body armour, and especially crash helmets, which are infinitely better than the "pudding basin" styles of the past but there are mixed opinions of the riders on these things. Tony Rickardson for example , didn't wear body armour because he felt it was too restrictive and he had more chance of avoiding a crash with out it . Same with neck braces. many riders don't wear them and I don't think Darcy was in his accident although it is debateable whether it would have made any difference..

 

I am not dismissing the points you make but sometimes these things have to wait for technology to catch up but

 

I might be wrong about this but I don't think there are many EL tracks that have seen many career threatening injuries over the last few years

[robert72]

British Indy car driver has died

[Humphrey Appleby]

The point under discussion is whether there are more serious injuries today than in the past and if so whether its due to more powerful bikes.

Whether there are or not, it doesn't mean that the power of the bikes shouldn't be looked at.

 

I suspect there are less injuries and deaths than in the earlier days of the sport, but could as much be down to better safety equipment and improved medical care. However, there seem to be more serious injuries these days than I remember in the 80s, although I have no empirical facts to go on.

 

Motorcycle racing including speedway has had advances in things like body armour, and especially crash helmets, which are infinitely better than the "pudding basin" styles of the past but there are mixed opinions of the riders on these things. Tony Rickardson for example , didn't wear body armour because he felt it was too restrictive and he had more chance of avoiding a crash with out it . Same with neck braces. many riders don't wear them and I don't think Darcy was in his accident although it is debateable whether it would have made any difference..

The same argument used to be advanced about seat belts, full face crash helmets, tub cockpits and no doubt Hanss devices as well. All these things are undoubtedly more restrictive more for the competitor, just as when I wear a neck brace and rib protector when I go karting. However, the point is the equipment provides protection against potential injury, and that for me must be the trade-off. No-one would suggest they're any guarantee against injury, but I think it's difficult to rationally argue that competitors are better protected without it.

 

And there's also the factor that if bikes are simply too powerful for the circuits and/or difficult to ride, that's definitely something that should be seriously looked at. Of course, speedway is somewhat unique in that less power can actually be less 'safe' than more, but it can't be beyond the bounds of possibility to come up with acceptable power/performance parameters.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby

[Trees]

Some riders do not wear the safety wear that is out there ....... it's their perogative.

 

For sure the riders need to stick together to get things changed if they are not happy, they are the ones out there racing, not the bods at the firm etc

[customhouseregular]

British Indy car driver has died

I just saw that on BBC News. What more can one say?.

[Vince]

There are limited things you can change to make Speedway safer and most will have a for and against argument anyway.

 

The biggest improvement would be a large run off area but you can't have that if you want Speedway in stadiums.

 

Silencers might cause issues but would certainly cause less problems on the older style long stroke engines yet that doesn't appear to be an option on any riders list. Yet again if you want Speedway in stadiums you need to learn to live with noise reduction as the limit will be lower in years to come. The only thing I would say on that score is that it would seem to me to be much simpler to have a noise limit and let competitors fit any silencer that complies.

 

The amount of power the bike makes after you get past about 60hp is pretty irrelevant to safety in my opinion, the way it is produced being far more important. I would bet that many more crashes are caused by bikes that are too soft than too powerful on Speedway. As the earlier post proves the actual speeds aren't so much higher as to have much, if any impact on injuries. If speed needs to be reduced I would look towards tyres or possibly wheelbase to make the bikes drive less but the riders and tuners would soon find a way around that.

 

Neck protectors (the expensive ones at least) appear to be a no brainer safety wise these days. There is no evidence that they cause the other injuries that people were concerned about and plenty that they protect a significant part of the spine. Apparently most severe spinal chord damage is in the middle back area which the neck protector doesn't help. I know that yet I don't wear one because I just find them too difficult and uncomfortable to wear. Could be argued that I haven't tried every make and model but it would cost thousands of pounds to do so. I'm fully aware of the risk but big enough and certainly old enough to make that choice and that's the way it should be. I was 10 when I got my first motorbike and my dad told me at the time that if I race bikes I will get hurt sometimes and there's no point whinging. My kids were told the same, it is part of life if you race bikes at any level and it wouldn't be as much fun if it wasn't.

 

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Speedway has less life threatening injuries now than in the past. However I do think that there are probably more broken bones and crashes than there were although I have no evidence to back that up. However I think you will find that in most motorcycle sport as kids come along who accept broken bones as part of skateboarding and BMX before they even get to motorbikes, todays kids just seem to push harder and take more chances.

 

You see that especially in Motocross, in a local club in the 80's it would be a bad year if you had a half dozen broken bones throughout the season. Now that would just be a bit of a bad meeting and that is down to the type of track the kids want to ride with lots of difficult jumps and the way they go about it. There are those who point out that if they were all riding BSA's on natural terrain tracks like in the 50s the injuries would be massively reduced and they are right. Not least because the sport would have died as nobody would want to race, however the number of competitors has grown by a large amount (and the number of spectators dwindled, like the majority of live sport).

[van wolfswinkel]

Unless I have my dates wrong West Ham operated for 17 years in the period 1946-1972. Being a big wide track it had it's unwelcome share of serious crashes, and I was present for the Dave Wills and Tadeusz Teodorowicz accidents.

 

But track and rider safety was so much poorer then with the wire fence, iron pit gate, light stanchions and the lack of decent protective helmets. If i am wrong then I shall recant but I firmly believe the current situation is worse, which should not be the case given rider and track safety considerations.

 

My 65 second estimate was arrived at by comparing West Ham with Sheffield, and comparing Sheffield c. 1970 with today.

 

Perhaps my memory has dimmed but 5 extremely serious accidents in 3 years was unheard of in the 1960's. Again, if I am wrong I will be pleased to reconsider my Argument.

Just about remember the Teo crash, his grave and headstone is the first one you come to in Swindon's cemetery, always red and white flowers there. Was in a coma for 20 weeks before he died, a harmless looking fall.

 

Watched a pre-war crash on youtube from Austria, the rider died after riding into a bloody metal staircase on the track.

 

And if Chris Holder states the bikes are too powerful for some of the small tracks now that's good enough for me.He should know!

Edited August 25, 2015 by haydon hat

[Fromafar]

Whether there are or not, it doesn't mean that the power of the bikes shouldn't be looked at.I suspect there are less injuries and deaths than in the earlier days of the sport, but could as much be down to better safety equipment and improved medical care. However, there seem to be more serious injuries these days than I remember in the 80s, although I have no empirical facts to go on. The same argument used to be advanced about seat belts, full face crash helmets, tub cockpits and no doubt Hanss devices as well. All these things are undoubtedly more restrictive more for the competitor, just as when I wear a neck brace and rib protector when I go karting. However, the point is the equipment provides protection against potential injury, and that for me must be the trade-off. No-one would suggest they're any guarantee against injury, but I think it's difficult to rationally argue that competitors are better protected without it.And there's also the factor that if bikes are simply too powerful for the circuits and/or difficult to ride, that's definitely something that should be seriously looked at. Of course, speedway is somewhat unique in that less power can actually be less 'safe' than more, but it can't be beyond the bounds of possibility to come up with acceptable power/performance parameters.

I agree with you ,car sport and bike sport have introduced mechanical measures to try and reduce speeds on circuits(of course tuners then work to get round these changes) and it has made the bikes safer to ride at high speeds,speedway has done nothing except introduce silencers with judging by riders comments make the bikes very unpredictable to ride.Something has to be done IMO .

[New Science]

What is really sad that we cant see any attempt trying to make it safer, unlike the formula 1. Last season 90% of the riders said that the muffler was dangerous and yet they rode the whole season with them, which is crazy...

One thing I have noticed is the increase in riders lifting,as was the case in Darcy's crash and the one involving Chris Harris at Kings Lynn.Anybody with any technical knowledge know what might cause this and why we see it more often

[Bream]

Engines arent producing enough torque. Earlier very restrictive silencers caused tuners to find power from high rpm range with light flywheels. This leads to engines that have power/torque on very very narrow range at the top of the rpms. If you try to chop throttle, you kill the engine and it bites. If you hit a rut, your bike dies and grabs a ton of grip. Lots of crashes are happening when rider cant change line, cant slow down or they try and bike grabs a ton of grip and you actually accelerate for a moment and crash to the guy next to you or just lift up towards the fence. Speedway engines are tricky. Too much torque they spin too much and wont go forward. With too little they jump around. With light flywheels and high rpm engines, this right area has become very narrow.

[E I Addio]

One thing I have noticed is the increase in riders lifting,as was the case in Darcy's crash and the one involving Chris Harris at Kings Lynn.Anybody with any technical knowledge know what might cause this and why we see it more often

That

Whether there are or not, it doesn't mean that the power of the bikes shouldn't be looked at.s.

That is a cogent enough point but in practice who does the looking and what are the limits of their brief ? Looking at the power of the bikes would involve technical experts (where would they come from ? Certainly not the tuners) and in addition to engines would involve exhaust systems nod how the power is transmitted to the track I.e tyres , chassis design and track surface. It would necessarily involve representatives from various countries and has all the hallmarks of a comitee that sit for years and gets nowhere.

 

However, a practical part- solution for this country at least could be an educational programme on getting e right set ups. I find it amazing the numbers of NL standard riders that buy or have bought for them a bike with a friend or relative as a machanic and between them have very little knowledge of basic mechanics and even less understanding of the black art of set ups. These are often still somewhat vague areas even for some PL riders, and on reflection it does seem to me that the majority of accidents in this country, especially the more serious ones are in the lower leagues, so it might well be the case that its not the power of the bikes per se that is a problem but the way they are set up and the way power is delivered from the back wheel to the track is beyond the skill of the less experienced rider.

[The White Knight]

 

 

If you've thought it through you'll have a list to hand of the serious injuries suffered on the 'tight tracks'.

 

Let's hear them.

NO!!

 

If you want to do further research - I would recommend that you read Post 68 (Vince) and 69 (Haydon Hat) two excellent Posts which express mt thoughts and feelings very well.

 

It would be a waste of time me replying to your Post properly - you wouldn't believe me anyway.

 

I will read all of your Posts - but don't bother asking me any questions - I will not answer them. You know why.

[Midland Red]

The one thing that worries me is the apparent power of the bikes today

Watching Bomber "take off" at Kings Lynn showed clearly that the machines have become monsters to handle

We've seen Tai, one of the smoothest riders in the world, find his machine leap up underneath him

I seem to recall reading recently that riders couldn't ride other riders' bikes the way they are now set up and the way they handle

And now we have Darcy's crash, caused, by the look of the video, by his bike lifting and carrying him into the back of Laguta

In the "good old days" - yes, I know there have always been bad injuries and fatalities - I remember riders regularly swapping bikes and racing their hardest in the "final of the night " in second halves at Brandon

You wouldn't be able to have that these days

So, something has to be done to "de-power" the bikes so that they are more manageable and safer to ride

[ford]

The one thing that worries me is the apparent power of the bikes today

Watching Bomber "take off" at Kings Lynn showed clearly that the machines have become monsters to handle

We've seen Tai, one of the smoothest riders in the world, find his machine leap up underneath him

I seem to recall reading recently that riders couldn't ride other riders' bikes the way they are now set up and the way they handle

And now we have Darcy's crash, caused, by the look of the video, by his bike lifting and carrying him into the back of Laguta

In the "good old days" - yes, I know there have always been bad injuries and fatalities - I remember riders regularly swapping bikes and racing their hardest in the "final of the night " in second halves at Brandon

You wouldn't be able to have that these days

So, something has to be done to "de-power" the bikes so that they are more manageable and safer to ride

 

The tyres supplied this year are a softer rubber compound, hence more grip.

[Glenn]

The tyres supplied this year are a softer rubber compound, hence more grip.

Are they the same tyres supplied in all countries now?

[ford]

Are they the same tyres supplied in all countries now?

 

If they are the same make as ours with a red stripe then they are the softer type.

[bellevueace]

The bikes have got more and more powerful but the tracks are exactly the same sizes as they were 50+ years ago so even with air fences there are going to be more crashes, do we really need so much speed that the bikes of today produce to enjoy exciting speedway? I dont think so, maybe less speed and more old fashioned track craft would see less serious injuries and the air fences would perhaps be more effective?

[ford]

The bikes have got more and more powerful but the tracks are exactly the same sizes as they were 50+ years ago so even with air fences there are going to be more crashes, do we really need so much speed that the bikes of today produce to enjoy exciting speedway? I dont think so, maybe less speed and more old fashioned track craft would see less serious injuries and the air fences would perhaps be more effective?

 

The 70's 2 valve Jawa handbook claims 48 bhp @ 8000 rpm, current GM's are making around 80 bhp.......