Risk...acceptable Or Unacceptable?

[The White Knight]

I am not surprised you are blue in the face because once again you make a knee jerk reaction and say the first thing that comes into your head without any evidence to back up what you say.

 

For one thing I don't think there are any tracks that date from 1928. The oldest I can think of off-hand date from around 1948 ish and even they have had alterations to there shape over the years.

 

As for tracks being too small and tight for modern machinery the tightest track in the EL is Lakeside and I can't remember the last time we had a serious injury there. Adam Shields had a bad knee injury around 2010/11 and Kauko Neminen broke his shoulder back in 2008 but that's about it as far as I can recall about from relatively minor injuries.

 

Whatever the reason for accidents, powerful bikes on tight t racks obviously isn't it,and arguing till you are blue in the face on a non point that hasn't been thought through does you no credit. Personally I don't think the serious injury rate has increased at all over the years, although air fences and body armour mean a lot of riders at e walking away from very spectacular crashes these days.

How can it be a knee jerk reaction? As I said I ave been saying this for years - hardly knee jerk.

 

Many Tracks are old, I'm not sure of the age of all of them but I do know that a good number are pre war.

 

I believe my Post to have at least some merit and actually is thought through - obviously you don't - but can't you disagree without your increasing unpleasantness.

 

I think a lot of your Post is not based on fact - I refuse to be unpleasant about it though...........................................

[customhouseregular]

Unless I have my dates wrong West Ham operated for 17 years in the period 1946-1972. Being a big wide track it had it's unwelcome share of serious crashes, and I was present for the Dave Wills and Tadeusz Teodorowicz accidents.

 

But track and rider safety was so much poorer then with the wire fence, iron pit gate, light stanchions and the lack of decent protective helmets. If i am wrong then I shall recant but I firmly believe the current situation is worse, which should not be the case given rider and track safety considerations.

 

My 65 second estimate was arrived at by comparing West Ham with Sheffield, and comparing Sheffield c. 1970 with today.

 

Perhaps my memory has dimmed but 5 extremely serious accidents in 3 years was unheard of in the 1960's. Again, if I am wrong I will be pleased to reconsider my Argument.

[stratton]

I am not surprised you are blue in the face because once again you make a knee jerk reaction and say the first thing that comes into your head without any evidence to back up what you say.

For one thing I don't think there are any tracks that date from 1928. The oldest I can think of off-hand date from around 1948 ish and even they have had alterations to there shape over the years.

As for tracks being too small and tight for modern machinery the tightest track in the EL is Lakeside and I can't remember the last time we had a serious injury there. Adam Shields had a bad knee injury around 2010/11 and Kauko Neminen broke his shoulder back in 2008 but that's about it as far as I can recall about from relatively minor injuries.

Whatever the reason for accidents, powerful bikes on tight t racks obviously isn't it,and arguing till you are blue in the face on a non point that hasn't been thought through does you no credit. Personally I don't think the serious injury rate has increased at all over the years, although air fences and body armour mean a lot of riders at e walking away from very spectacular crashes these days.

Please Addio make your point but don't come across as SUPERIOR because you are far from it .Have a read of your post have a opinion but that's all it is your opinion. Edited August 24, 2015 by sidney

[bruno]

Bikes are to powerful I don't think anyone can deny that,in days gone by the rider decided what the bike did but now it's almost as if the rider has to react after the bike makes it's own move.the injuries today would be even worse without the air fences so that alone proves the bikes are to powerful.just imagine the injuries without the air fences

[daveallan81]

I've ran a set of track record figures for tracks operating in 1978 and stacked them against the tracks of today. The first notable thing is that all but 4 of the track records standing at the end of 1978 were set within the preceeding two years. I make it 13 modern records set before 2011. One could deduce from that that the speed was still increasing in 1978, but seems to have peaked 5+ years ago. However I am willing to concede that with less 'top' stars around the chances of records getting lowered is perhaps slimmer. But at a base level the figures come out like this:

 

1978

Average track length: 335.31m

Average track record: 64.60

Average TR MPH: 46.34

Highest MPH: 52.57 (Exeter)

Lowest MPH: 37.86 (Crayford)

 

2015

Average track length: 296.56m

Average track record: 56.86

Average TR MPH: 46.52

Highest MPH: 54.66 (Sheffield)

Lowest MPH: 37.52 (Plymouth)

 

The one big stand out there is the drop in track size. 8 of 39 clubs in 1978 raced on tracks under 300m. Today 15 of 27 run on tracks under 300m. Let's compare them:

 

1978 Under 300m: ave. TR 60.20, 40.96mph

2015 Under 300m: ave. TR 54.53, 43.96mph

 

1978 Over 300m: ave. TR 65.74, 47.73mph

2015 Over 300m: ave. TR 59.76, 49.72mph

 

So while we have reasonable parity in the overall analysis, there is a distinct decrease in times and an increase in speed when you run them split on track size.

 

Sheffield is the only track that remains the same, at least in size. Track records 65.2 v 59.1 and speed 49.54mph v 54.66mph.

 

Feel free to draw your own conclusions, but is the increased speed differential significant enough to be cited as the direct cause of 'bigger' accidents, more often? Or has that extra 10% since the seventies just pushed rider safety across the tipping point? If so, where do you wind it back to - would 1980's speeds be well within tolerance levels what with advances in track safety, helmet design, and so on?

[customhouseregular]

Phew!

[Triple.H.]

I don't wish to waste bandwidth so I'm not quoting Daveallan81's post but the stark reality of it is that Plymouth is the slowest track MPH wise and YET HalifaxTiger who I don't think Ive ever met and who probably attends more meetings at various tracks in a month than i do in a season posts on this forum absolutely raves about the racing there which proves you don't need speed for top entertainment

Edited August 24, 2015 by Triple.H.

[Blackadder]

For one thing I don't think there are any tracks that date from 1928. The oldest I can think of off-hand date from around 1948 ish and even they have had alterations to there shape over the years./quote]

 

Sheffield opened in 1929 I think, and the size and shape hasn't changed all that much since.

As others have said, the bikes are not suitable any more. I know nothing about the technical aspects of machinery, but something has gone badly wrong during recent years.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Blackadder

[BWitcher]

How can it be a knee jerk reaction? As I said I ave been saying this for years - hardly knee jerk.

 

Many Tracks are old, I'm not sure of the age of all of them but I do know that a good number are pre war.

 

I believe my Post to have at least some merit and actually is thought through - obviously you don't - but can't you disagree without your increasing unpleasantness.

 

I think a lot of your Post is not based on fact - I refuse to be unpleasant about it though...........................................

 

How can it be a knee jerk reaction? As I said I ave been saying this for years - hardly knee jerk.

 

Many Tracks are old, I'm not sure of the age of all of them but I do know that a good number are pre war.

 

I believe my Post to have at least some merit and actually is thought through - obviously you don't - but can't you disagree without your increasing unpleasantness.

 

I think a lot of your Post is not based on fact - I refuse to be unpleasant about it though...........................................

 

If you've thought it through you'll have a list to hand of the serious injuries suffered on the 'tight tracks'.

 

Let's hear them.

[fatface]

Sorry EIA but Richardson, Ashworth, Schlein, Kerr and Ward in a 3 year period tells me the serious injury rate has certainly increased,

I think we need a wider view than 'top of my head' thinking. From when I first started watching in 1981, I recall Zdenek Kudrna, Denny Pyeatt, Leif Wahlmann, Craig Featherby, Brett Alderton were all killed within a two-three year time frame. Was the sport more dangerous then than now? I don't know.

 

Truth is that it is a very, very dangerous sport. It always has been and always will be no matter how skilled the rider. Even some of the sport's very greatest - Tom Farndon, Peter Craven, Erik Gundersen, Per Jonsson have had life-ending or career-ending crashes.

 

A solution is not easy to come by. It is impossible to make the sport 100% safe. I think the air fences have been a great addition to the sport. We'll never really know how many serious injuries they alone have prevented. Yet, I can well understand with the rawness of the terrible news regarding Darcy Ward, people are questioning even the existence of the sport.

 

But as long as young men have the desire to race motorbikes round a dirt track and people are willing to pay to see them, there will always be speedway. And if there is speedway, there will always be danger.

Edited August 24, 2015 by falcace

[BWitcher]

The misguided perception that the sport is more dangerous now is twofold:

 

1: The immediacy of information. We hear about every crash in every single meeting around the world within hours (or less) of it happening.

 

2: Riders racing in different leagues. In yesteryear, not many riders who rode in the UK would be racing in the Polish Leagues for example.. so any injuries suffered in the Polish league wouldn't even get a mention in the UK.

 

Essentially folk are comparing injuries in the British Leagues in the 'old days' to injuries in every single speedway meeting around the world now.

[customhouseregular]

The misguided perception that the sport is more dangerous now is twofold:

 

1: The immediacy of information. We hear about every crash in every single meeting around the world within hours (or less) of it happening.

 

2: Riders racing in different leagues. In yesteryear, not many riders who rode in the UK would be racing in the Polish Leagues for example.. so any injuries suffered in the Polish league wouldn't even get a mention in the UK.

 

Essentially folk are comparing injuries in the British Leagues in the 'old days' to injuries in every single speedway meeting around the world now.

A fair point and one which I accept.

[E I Addio]

Unless I have my dates wrong West Ham operated for 17 years in the period 1946-1972. Being a big wide track it had it's unwelcome share of serious crashes, and I was present for the Dave Wills and Tadeusz Teodorowicz accidents.

 

But track and rider safety was so much poorer then with the wire fence, iron pit gate, light stanchions and the lack of decent protective helmets. If i am wrong then I shall recant but I firmly believe the current situation is worse, which should not be the case given rider and track safety considerations.

 

My 65 second estimate was arrived at by comparing West Ham with Sheffield, and comparing Sheffield c. 1970 with today.

 

Perhaps my memory has dimmed but 5 extremely serious accidents in 3 years was unheard of in the 1960's. Again, if I am wrong I will be pleased to reconsider my Argument.

The point I was making about fatalities is that West Ham was one track but had four fatalities in approx.17 years of post war operation.add to that Hackney that had at least another couple in league matches plus I think at least one on a training day,and that is six or seven on two London tracks alone plus others elsewhere. Now compare that to the whole of the UK in the last 17 years and I think it's clear that West Ham and Hackney alone had more fatalities than the whole of the UK has had in modern times, and that's without the crippling injuries sustained at Hackney by Steve Weatherly and Graham Miles.

 

The 5 serious accidents you refer to include 3 thst occurred in Poland. The problem is in pre-Internet days we didn't know what was happening on the continent and in the 60's Poland was of course under communist rule so nothing got reported over here anyway, so it's not really comparing like with like.

 

What I will say is that it does APPEAR to me that there are more crashes these days, but appearances can be deceiving. We see speedway on TV from all over Europe, and action replays draw our attention to the crashes, and the Internet reports them, so we are more focussed on them. An avid follower on TV might see several big crashes a week but really , if you are only spectating at one track bad crashes are not usually commonplace.

 

By far the biggest danger in any form of motorcycle racing is falling off and hitting something. High speed crashes often result in nothing more than cuts and bruises as long as the rider doesn't hit anything. If he hits something or is hit even at fairly low speed it can cause serious injury. Alan Wilkinsons tragic accident at Belle Vue would probably have done no harm if an air fence had been used in those days, and clearly the air fence has prevented many serious injuries.

 

I don't think aI can add to that but it does seem, to me at least that that a probable increase in crashes is offset but air fences, body armour, and far better crash helmets etc. I don't see any evidence at all though that increased speed is a factor of itself.

Edited August 24, 2015 by E I Addio

[orion]

As someone has already said speedway has and always will be a dangerous sport ...In Darcy case there is nothing or no one to blame .sadly just one of those things .

[E I Addio]

I think we need a wider view than 'top of my head' thinking. From when I first started watching in 1981, I recall Zdenek Kudrna, Denny Pyeatt, Leif Wahlmann, Craig Featherby, Brett Alderton were all killed within a two-three year time frame. Was the sport more dangerous then than now? I don't know.

 

Truth is that it is a very, very dangerous sport. It always has been and always will be no matter how skilled the rider. Even some of the sport's very greatest - Tom Farndon, Peter Craven, Erik Gundersen, Per Jonsson have had life-ending or career-ending crashes.

 

A solution is not easy to come by. It is impossible to make the sport 100% safe. I think the air fences have been a great addition to the sport. We'll never really know how many serious injuries they alone have prevented. Yet, I can well understand with the rawness of the terrible news regarding Darcy Ward, people are questioning even the existence of the sport.

 

But as long as young men have the desire to race motorbikes round a dirt track and people are willing to pay to see them, there will always be speedway. And if there is speedway, there will always be danger.

True. I don't know if it is still the case but the ACU handbook used to state that if you take up motorcycle racing you will get hurt, possibly seriously. That is a plain fact that the competitors accept and the spectators ought to. But it is hell of a lot of fun, and that's why they do it.

[bruno]

I don't think the problem is that the bikes are that much quicker speed wise but I think they react quicker if that makes sense giving the riders very little time to react themselves

[Wackie]

People probably ignore it, but there's always a disclaimer in programmes too about spectator safety with it being a dangerous sport, anyone attending a meeting accepts these without question.

 

If there was something that could be done to improve safety further I'm sure the riders would be 'on it' with the authorities immediately. Maybe we will see a change to the silencer rule now if they honestly think it wouldl make a difference. We've seen in the GP series this year that top riders are quite willing to make a stand and challenge authority, it's possible a life changing injury to a top rider as it seem we sadly have here may change things.

 

At the end of the day though, it's 4 blokes on 4 bikes going hell for leather round a track for 60 seconds or so, accidents are always going to happen.

[HenryW]

Perhaps my memory has dimmed but 5 extremely serious accidents in 3 years was unheard of in the 1960's. Again, if I am wrong I will be pleased to reconsider my Argument.

It's maybe worth taking a few moments to consider the following lists...All riders who sadly lost their lives according to the speedway "in memoriam" website.

 

1960-62: Derek Maynard, Witold Swiatkowski, Libor Dusanek, Erich Stieglmeier, Anton Thurner, Leszek Zienkiewicz, Bronislaw Idzikowski, Jack Unstead, Stanislaw Domaniecki, Des Simon and Arne Wettergren

 

1963-65: Antonin Vilde, Peter Craven, Boris Zakharov, Josef Slunecko, Peter Stirling, Tadeusz Teodorowicz, Dave Wills, Jerzy Oles, Barry Hopkin and Ray Sharp.

 

1966-68: Ivor Hughes, Andrzej Walicki, Poul Wissing, Harry Denton, Lionel Levy, Tadeusz Tkaczyk, Lubos Tomicek and Ken Mapp

 

1969-71: Roger Browne, Bernt Norrby, Marian Rose, Trevor Hobbs, Jimmy Gavros, Genadi Vyunov, Benedykt Blaskiewicz, Gordon Guasco, Jerzy Bildziukiewicz, Des Noble, Les Fielding and Valeri Klementiev

 

Speedway has always been an incredibly dangerous sport.

 

In the last 3 years we have tragically lost Darrin Winkler, Lee Richardson, Matej Duh and Grzegorz Knapp. Still far too many young lives being cut short, but far fewer than in the 60s.

[Dawkins20]

People probably ignore it, but there's always a disclaimer in programmes too about spectator safety with it being a dangerous sport, anyone attending a meeting accepts these without question.

 

If there was something that could be done to improve safety further I'm sure the riders would be 'on it' with the authorities immediately. Maybe we will see a change to the silencer rule now if they honestly think it wouldl make a difference. We've seen in the GP series this year that top riders are quite willing to make a stand and challenge authority, it's possible a life changing injury to a top rider as it seem we sadly have here may change things.

 

At the end of the day though, it's 4 blokes on 4 bikes going hell for leather round a track for 60 seconds or so, accidents are always going to happen.

 

I see the exact opposite, when they introduced the new silencers there were only a couple of polish riders who stood up and said they dont want it. And when it was clear that they are a lot worse than the ones before, still riders couldnt stick together and demand a change.

Same when SGP tried to forbid riders to race in the euros, most of them chickened out immediately instead of taking a stand.

 

Obvously in this tragic moments riders stick together but when it comes to money they all on their own.

[pawel115]

I think with the air fence the sport is much safer today than before i am from Poland and we had our share of serious accidents and fatalities(close to 40 riders dying in crashes in Poland since 50's).Sadly Zielona Gora track where Darcy's accident happened had it share of tragic accidents with 4 riders losing their lives there since 1980(Bogdan Splawski,Wieslaw Pawlak,Andrzej Zarzecki,Artur Pawlak).