Risk...acceptable Or Unacceptable?

[BWitcher]

Not saying it isn't the case but does anyone actually have any lists of injuries over the years to prove that there are more injuries per meeting now?

 

This is a good point as its trotted out time and again there are 'more injuries than ever before'. I've heard that said for the last 20 years!

 

I would suggest we simply forget most of the injuries from the past!

 

1993 for example, Wolverhampton lost 4 riders in the space of a week.

Edited September 3, 2015 by BWitcher

[The White Knight]

But is that because there are now more riders riding in more meetings than ever before?

Not British ones - that's for sure. :sad:

[pawel115]

I think too it is much safer now that back in the days medical care improved too and air fences are great in my opinion. Andrzej Zarzecki,Artur Pawlak and Rif Saitgariejev crashes were filmed you can see them on Youtube i think all of them would have been alive today if the air fence was installed(especially Artur Pawlak)

Edited September 3, 2015 by pawel115

[sparkafag]

Yes, but I think the point needs to be made that Bianchi was the first driver killed in F1 for 20 years, whereas 1 or 2 drivers used to be killed every season before there were substantial safety improvements in the 1980s. Moreover, Bianchi was effectively killed in a freak rather than preventable accident (e.g. drivers burning to death because there's no extinguishers available).

 

You'll never eliminate risk completely, just as you can't prevent road deaths entirely. However, you can look at ways of reducing the risk, and speedway is well behind the curve in that respect compared to other motor sports.

 

I'd guess any rev limiter would need to be reactive according to wheel spin conditions, rather than merely cutting revs at a given rpm. The idea being that power is available under wheel spin conditions, but reduced if there's too much grip.

 

 

F1 also has the advantage of millions of pounds that can be used to invest in technology, safety and research, something Speedway doesn’t have so it is natural it would be further advanced than a sport like Speedway.

 

The case and example of F1 as a comparison is absurdly unfair, it is the absolute elite of motor sport, a small group of drivers, smaller numbers at the absolute pinacle of their profession, it is naturally going to decrease the likely number of deaths and injuries.

 

If for example, the Grand Prix was used as a case example for Speedway, it would show the sport in an incredible light when it comes to rider safety.

 

“Speedway” and injuries and deaths are classed across 1,000s, of competitors at varying levels and skill sets racing on a variance of conditions. I appreciate the case could be argued that safety should be the same for every competitor (and in an ideal world it should) but when you are allowing people to develop their craft, it is natural, almost expected there will be bumps along the way, I would assume the same happens with F1 drivers before they make it the top level, or in the vast majority of cases, don’t.

[Humphrey Appleby]

“Speedway” and injuries and deaths are classed across 1,000s, of competitors at varying levels and skill sets racing on a variance of conditions. I appreciate the case could be argued that safety should be the same for every competitor (and in an ideal world it should) but when you are allowing people to develop their craft, it is natural, almost expected there will be bumps along the way, I would assume the same happens with F1 drivers before they make it the top level, or in the vast majority of cases, don’t.

 

I doubt there's even a thousand speedway riders in the whole world, and probably fewer than 300 professionals. On this basis, I'd have said the level of injuries is extraordinarily high compared a number of other motor sports.

 

I accept that two-wheeled sport will always be inherently more dangerous than four-wheeled sport, and of course speedway has nothing like the money of F1 to spend on research. However, many people on here essentially identify that modern engines are too powerful and/or unrideable for the tracks they compete on, yet virtually nothing seems to have been done to actually look into that. Other motor sports reduced the power of the engines, changed tyre specifications, or introduced other measures to limit or negate the advances in technology, so I simply don't believe nothing can be done.

 

Similarly, there must be things that can be done to improve track fences on the parts when air fence isn't practical (e.g. along the straights), or possibly improve rider protective wear.

[f-s-p]

Not saying it isn't the case but does anyone actually have any lists of injuries over the years to prove that there are more injuries per meeting now?

We tried (not as fsp but as FMN rep) to get injury/case stats from the insurance company a few years ago, but they were not interested in helping us.

[Vince]

To look at this from another angle I have been racing motorcycles of one form or another for 40 years on and off and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have enjoyed it half so much if it wasn't dangerous. It is an inherent part of motorcycle sport and one that the competitors are aware of and talk to most of them and they are actually quite proud of past injuries.

 

Having said that nobody wants to see people seriously hurt if it can be avoided so there are things that can and probably should be done but in my opinion if you get over obsessed with health and safety you could ruin what is an important part of the sport for the competitors. You only have to look at how society in general has become much more safety conscious while extreme sports have become more popular. Many young men in particular like danger and those are the lads that might come into Speedway. They are also the people who will come and watch a spectacular and dangerous sport if anyone ever tells them what it's like!

[New Science]

This is a good point as its trotted out time and again there are 'more injuries than ever before'. I've heard that said for the last 20 years!

 

I would suggest we simply forget most of the injuries from the past!

 

1993 for example, Wolverhampton lost 4 riders in the space of a week.

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An increase in injuries must be in my head then. Probably best to move on to the bigger issues that persist in the sport .

Edited September 4, 2015 by New Science

[Bream]

After watching last league match of the season in Finland today. My opinion is that FIM should go back to pre-2010 silencers. I dont care if some tracks are closed because of noise problems. Stadiums should be made in a way that noise would deflect upwards. Speedway is getting too dangerous when you cant ride next to anyone because your bike might jump like scared horse. I think we needed ambulance five or six times. Non of them were after some agressive move but bike jumping forwards or sideways from a tiny rut. Track was in great condition. With these bikes you could not even ride that same track what it was 5-10 years ago.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Bream

[iris123]

I don't think that is possible or sensible.............just this week in the news was a case of someone in Bavaria who was complaining about the cows having bells round their neck and that they sound like "jack hammers".The woman who has the cows offered to take all except one bell off the cows(so she could at least find them if they strayed away on the mountains),but it seems at the moment she has to remove the bells after 19:00......such is the world we now live in.Something that seems so idealic is now considered a nuisance and it might well be one if those cows are roaming around outside your window

[Bream]

Whiners whine.. those no-life bastards. It took 30 years to build a motocross track in my city because one of those whiners. I think city of Lahti lost speedway and motocross tracks because of one. Tracks were built next to motorway and they were not able to get any readings in their dB-meters from the track because of the noise. Sad how evil motivated mind can bring down motorsport center. I laughed like hell when I heard that city has planned a motorway to go over the area now. Can you feel the karma in this one.

[New Science]

After watching last league match of the season in Finland today. My opinion is that FIM should go back to pre-2010 silencers. I dont care if some tracks are closed because of noise problems. Stadiums should be made in a way that noise would deflect upwards. Speedway is getting too dangerous when you cant ride next to anyone because your bike might jump like scared horse. I think we needed ambulance five or six times. Non of them were after some agressive move but bike jumping forwards or sideways from a tiny rut. Track was in great condition. With these bikes you could not even ride that same track what it was 5-10 years ago.

Spot on

[iris123]

Whiners whine.. those no-life bastards. It took 30 years to build a motocross track in my city because one of those whiners. I think city of Lahti lost speedway and motocross tracks because of one. Tracks were built next to motorway and they were not able to get any readings in their dB-meters from the track because of the noise. Sad how evil motivated mind can bring down motorsport center. I laughed like hell when I heard that city has planned a motorway to go over the area now. Can you feel the karma in this one.

We are currently starting building a roof for the motorway through Hamburg that will take years to finish and cause major disruption to stop the noise.But of course when the plans were announced,some of those people were then appalled that near their house would be an outlet for all the fumes that come from the vehicles under the roof!!!!!

[f-s-p]

Track was in great condition. With these bikes you could not even ride that same track what it was 5-10 years ago.

Compared to the tracks that regularly stage speedway in Finland for the past 5 years (excluding Kauhajoki), the track at Varkaus was zhit. Juha Hautamäki doesn't just lose control of his bike in two corners during one lap and fall after the second "jump". And he's been around for 18 years now and been the top rider in Finland for 15 of them. The incidents had bugger all to do with silencers, it was all down to the track. This is my opinion.

 

Now the more lenient approach is, that why did the riders rode like it was as good as the rest of the tracks in Finland? Because 11 of the 15 riders present had a chance of winning the league title, thats why.

Edited September 7, 2015 by f-s-p

[f-s-p]

Whiners whine.. those no-life bastards. It took 30 years to build a motocross track in my city because one of those whiners. I think city of Lahti lost speedway and motocross tracks because of one. Tracks were built next to motorway and they were not able to get any readings in their dB-meters from the track because of the noise. Sad how evil motivated mind can bring down motorsport center. I laughed like hell when I heard that city has planned a motorway to go over the area now. Can you feel the karma in this one.

To my knowledge there really was just one arschloch that was complaining about Lahti speedway. The urban legend states that after he got Kärpänen closed earlier, this same sad individual moved to Pippo and continued with the new track. Dont know how much of the latter part is true. But I do know having read some of the complaints, that noise was not the only issue. And why the other issues were not taken care of, is a mystery to me.

 

But the biggest problem at Lahti was that the club (mother club, not just speedway) failed to update their "planning permission" and therefor it expired (or similar) leaving things hanging and open for the whiners to react. At one point everything at Pippo was closed, that included the mx track, enduro route and quite a good looking karting stadium. I think they are allowed to ride some disciplines, but speedway now seem's lost. The city of Lahti has made that area destined to become a place for logistics centers. Forgetting the fact that the Lahti area is already full of such buildings, just that they are empty because of the recession... The actual motorway would have/someday will go through the carpark between the speedway and karting. So with a little good will both could survive at Lahti.

 

Regarding your statement about not caring, thats a bit harsh. It's not as easy elsewhere as it is in Varkaus. With the rate that things are processing behind the scenes, we are not far off (well maybe 5-10 years) from the scenario that you and Mustonen bro's are the only speedway people in Finland.

[Bream]

Track was ok before meeting and we had Loppi jumping around and after that Siltaniemi crashing during practice. Comparing to about 5 years ago that track on saturday was in good condition. But now, it was bad. Only bikes have changed. Partanen almost crashed to Mustonen's rear wheel when came from turn 4. Bike just jumped forward. Good reaction from Partanen was only thing to prevent crash. There wasnt a rut or anything there. Im just meaning that bikes are so sensitive to change of grip. And lack of torque is causing problems. It is really sad to see how one by one tracks are closing. But what can you wait from society where everything is going to get banned. Reality check is needed. Cant even get a permission to make track during winter on a lake in the middle of nowhere without expensive enviroment permits. What speedway needs is people and problem is that cities are too much in love with bureucrasy so you cant get close to cities. Only a "dying" city like Varkaus takes speedway with open arms.

[f-s-p]

Spot on with your last sentence.

[Dave the Mic]

Jus got back from a holiday & trying to catch up. The original topic of this thread was about risk & just wanted to add my bit. The bottom line is riders have a choice. No-one forces any of them to ride/race.

 

Watch the excellent Life of Tai documentary & he will openly state that whilst riders know the risks are very serious indeed, they just accept it because it is what they do.

 

I have been criticised on here before for defending riders who race to entertain us & whilst that statement is a fact, I totally accept that they would race in my back garden (if it were big enough) in front of me & my neighbours cat for nothing, because they race for the same reasons that we watch - the buzz, adrenalin, whatever you want to call it.

 

To criticise the authorities is all very well, but how many riders wear a neck brace, or the inflatable that Bomber does? Less than a handful, so they have to accept some of the responsibility if anyone is claiming the risk is unacceptable.

[Humphrey Appleby]

To criticise the authorities is all very well, but how many riders wear a neck brace, or the inflatable that Bomber does? Less than a handful, so they have to accept some of the responsibility if anyone is claiming the risk is unacceptable.

 

All the more reason why riders need to be protected from themselves. Why make them wear helmets or any protective equipment at all if it's their responsibility?

[The White Knight]

Perhaps Neck Braces and Inflatable Jackets should be compulsory. The problem, of course, is Cost to Riders. Perhaps those particular Items could be provided by the Promoter?