OveFundinFan Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Nicely put post #20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 My picks: Emil to win, Plechanov second, Split third. Jessup missing out due to engine problems, Carter leading at the interval only for disaster to hit in his fourth ride. That sounds about right. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveFundinFan Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Plechanov 2nd AGAIN !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Plechanov 2nd AGAIN !!!!Joe this is a great thread but i would have Although the OP hasn’t made it explicit, it seems the criteria for inclusion are non wolrd champions who either a) having finished on the podium or came close to winning the title without finishing on the poidium (e.g. Carter). That criteria rules out a number of riders who appear on conventional “best ever not to win the title" lists, excluding the likes of Farndon, Duggan etc from no-worlrd championship eras and also the likes of Chris Morton, who was world class without ever producing the good son world final nights. I’ll make three changes to the OPs list of 16 – bringing in Jack Parker, Denis Sigalos and Malcom Simmons for Scott Autrey, Sjosten and Bernt Persson. To run through the field: Leigh Adams: The sort of rider that had he not won a world title under the old format we would have said “would have been a world champ for sure under a GP series.” Truly quality rider, perhaps doubt as to whether he was hard enough to win a one –off title Jessup: His world final record of one silver doesn’t do him justice, famously missing out on possibly a world title (certainly a rostrum spoot) due tio engine failure in 78, and again a podium spot in 81m due to engine failures. Bad luck – possibly not, more evidence that mechanical preparation is needed to become world champ. Under a GP system he would have been a near certainty for the title in 1980, ao while often derided as a “gating tart” I think he’s one of the leading contenders in this field Plechanov: the only rider to be runner up two consecutive years without lifting the title. Well before my time, but clearly one of the class riders of the field Plech: If this meeting were to be held in Poland he would be one of the hot favourites, otherwise I could see only a lower table finish despite his quality. Emil: Unsure why the OP labels him a controversial inclusion. GP medalist as a teenager. Locked in a dramatic two way battle for the title a couple of seasons later, only to be denied at least silver by injury. The most talented rider in the field Nilsen: Managed a silver in the GP system. As well as being just off the podium in both eworld final and GP formats. You don’t achieve that without being very very good, but not a rider I consider to be quite world champion quality. Split Waterman: Like Plechanov before my time, but one of two double silver medalists in the field, has to be a favourite Kenny Carter: Three world finals, at the half way mark was never lower than second. Of course what followed was an engine failure at wembley, THAT incident in 82, and a disappointing tail off in 83. Would have been a hot favourite in the 85 world final but for a broken leg in the final qualifying meeting. Probably second best rider in the world in 81-82, would have been a certyainty for minimum silver medal under a gP system in 82. Only rider in the field not to win a medal, but certainly one of the best riders in the field if he can avoid imploding after the interval. Hampel: Like Jessup often unfairly derided as a gating tart. Like Adams, a rider who you would have thought ideally suited to GPs given his domestic record. Has an excellent GP record over the last few years, and would have been better if not for injury. If this was to be run over a GP format I’d tip him as a medalist, but in a world final basis I have my doubts. Shaun Moran: One of my favourite riders of all time, quite capable of winning the thing or finishing last. Hiw world final record realy doesn’t do justice to his talent, his record in the inter-conitninental final – along with the BLRC arguably the two meetings with the strongest line ups in that era-is testament to that. Malcolm Simmons: A top top rider, as his record in the world pairs indicates. That said, never THAT close to being a world champ, and under a GP format I’m not sure he would have even managed a silver. Well worthy of a place in this field though. Billy sanders: Had an excellent record in world finals, really raising himself on the big night (with the exception of 84). But never got genuinely close to being world champ, one of the weaker riders in the field IMHO. Tommy Knudsen: Scintillating third on debut as 1 year old testament to his talent, involved in one of the most famous Wembley races of all time with Penhall. though admittedly he would likely have missed out on a podium spot but for engine difficulties suffered by Carter/Gundersen/ Jessup. Then of course was dnied a possible world title after THAT clash with Hans in 86. Career was sadly hampered by injuries. One of the most naturally talented riders in the field. Dennis Sigalos: Included perhaps more on potential than actual achievements. Made only two finals, finishing third on debut in 82 would likely have finished off the podium but for the Penhall/KC clash) and disappointingly down the field in 83. However was one of the top three riders in the world in 82, 83 and at the time of his career ending injury in 84. Could well have been world champion but for that injury. Bengt Jansson: world class record, denied a world title only by a lost run off against Fundin. Soren Sjosten: very good world final record, without ever getting really close to being world champ: Jack Parker: Well before my time, but as an Aces fan he was always talked about as the greatest never to win it. Omissions (including those men tioned by others as possible): Persson – the only rider omitted who missed out on a title by run off, but there's certainly an argument he shouldn’t have been on the podium, rather should have been excluded earlier in the meet for knocking Briggs off. Soren Sjosten: very good world final record, without ever getting really close to being world champ: Autrey: Two world finals, one podium finish, a quality rider who may have pushed for a medal in GPs in the late 70s. Ward: His last two GPs seasons he has been set well placed for a medal before his seasons being prematurely ended. A huge natural talent, but not sure he has yet got close enough to a title to be considered a “nearly man” Les Collins: Produced three world class pefromances (80 BLRC, 82 IC and world final) in his career, but was otherwise an international class rather than world class performer. Tbh would rate him behind the likes of Louis x2, Wigg, Tatum etc. even if he did get closer (one poor ride and bad luck with the carter crash) to being world champ than any of them. Phil Crump: Could have been world champ in 75 under a GP system, albeit due to his superior machinery. A rider of his quality though ha da poor world final record. Brian Crutcher: Managed one rostrum spot on his home track, given that all his world finals were at wembley (his home track for all bar one of those seasons), not convinced he warrants a spot ahead of any of those included. My picks: Emil to win, Plechanov second, Split third. Jessup missing out due to engine problems, Carter leading at the interval only for disaster to hit in his fourth ride. surely Split Waterman to be the favourite in that one? I'll go a top three of Split, Jack Parker and Dave Jessup. Aces 1 Autrey has to be in it surely ?i think in 78/79 he was a big player i thought in 78 he had a massive chance i remember Ivan fending him off in one race for me he was a terrific rider no 1 in the averages was it 79?or 78. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miro Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Missing Gordon Kennett, second in 1978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Who would you leave out for Kennet though? Plenty of riders who finished on the podium not in the 16 listed here,Kennet would be towards the bottom of my list. Sid - fair call re autrey, but who do you leave out? Maybe ahead of nilsen, Sanders or Simmons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluPanther Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 1- Emil 9- Knudsen 2- Adams 10- Autrey 3- Louis J. 11- Simmons 4- Crump 12- Morton C. 5- Sigalos 13- Wiltshire 6- Carter 14- Hampel 7- Moran S. 15- Jansson 8- Sanders 16- Louis C. Can only judge the riders i have seen live.... 1. EMIL 2- ADAMS 3- SANDERS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Who would you leave out for Kennet though? Plenty of riders who finished on the podium not in the 16 listed here,Kennet would be towards the bottom of my list. Sid - fair call re autrey, but who do you leave out?Maybe ahead of nilsen, Sanders or Simmons? Nilsen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Yeah, I was leaning that way but he did finish 2nd in a gp series which I'm not sure Simmons Sanders or autrey would have managed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMac Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Malcolm Simmons: A top top rider, as his record in the world pairs indicates. That said, never THAT close to being a world champ, and under a GP format I’m not sure he would have even managed a silver. Well worthy of a place in this field though. Having led Peter Collins for most of Heat 7 at Katowice in 1976 and then finished runner-up to him (just one point behind), he couldn't have gone much closer without winning it! Simmo was actually riding even better in 1977, until a shoulder injury wrecked his title chances, and would have been in with a strong shout had he remained injury-free and the GP series formula applied that year. He finished fourth in his two other individual World Finals (1975 and '78), so not a terrible record. Edited August 25, 2015 by tmc 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Yeah, I was leaning that way but he did finish 2nd in a gp series which I'm not sure Simmons Sanders or autrey would have managed. Simmons finished SECOND in 1976 I'm sure. :unsure: EDIT: Ooops - I should have read TMC's Post first. Edited August 25, 2015 by The White Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Twk - my point was I don't think simmo would ever have finished 2nd under a gp format. That would have meant finishing ahead of three of Olsen mauger Collins and michanek and can't think of a year he would have done that. Tmc argues for 77 but in my view that would be undoubtedly a pc/Olsen 1-2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Twk - my point was I don't think simmo would ever have finished 2nd under a gp format. That would have meant finishing ahead of three of Olsen mauger Collins and michanek and can't think of a year he would have done that. Tmc argues for 77 but in my view that would be undoubtedly a pc/Olsen 1-2 Ah. Right. I still think Simmo would have had a chance were it not for his injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) The thing is, there are far more than 16 worthy names. Graham Warren is another who probably should be in there... the best rider in the world in 1950, and third in the world with 12 points (4 wins and 1 fall). He probably would have won a Speedway GP series in '50. But for the fractured skull following that season, he would almost certainly been World Champion at some point. All the best Rob Edited August 25, 2015 by lucifer sam 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 That's the beauty of threads like this, they'd be pretty boring if there were only 16 names and we all agreed who was the best if them So perhaps Warren should be in the 16 ahead of nilsen/Sanders, have to admit I didn't know a lot about Warren 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Twk - my point was I don't think simmo would ever have finished 2nd under a gp format. That would have meant finishing ahead of three of Olsen mauger Collins and michanek and can't think of a year he would have done that. Tmc argues for 77 but in my view that would be undoubtedly a pc/Olsen 1-2i still think 76 slipped Simmo by, as i dont think PC would of got Simmo from the back very often for at least a three year period Simmons was a real contender was real class.In 76 people forget Jansson i believe he would of challenged PC very hypothetical i know but he was a real threat. That's the beauty of threads like this, they'd be pretty boring if there were only 16 names and we all agreed who was the best if themSo perhaps Warren should be in the 16 ahead of nilsen/Sanders, have to admit I didn't know a lot about WarrenI don't know much about the blond bombshell Warren apart from research and my uncle saying he underachieved but was a brilliant rider also Alan Hunt was some rider also. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Even if simmo had beaten pc, pc could still have claimed a run off by beating mauger, rather than being able to settle for second. And of course if mauger hadn't had an engine failure maybe he would have beaten them both to the title. Simmo came close sure, but that's why I emphasised not THAT close. I'd consider riders who missed out in a run off, jessup in 78 or Carter (and even l Collins) in 82 as being closer. Where would Simmons come in a meeting of "nearly Brits". I'd have split, Parker and jessup as the top 3, with simmo and Carter as the strongest other candidates. Add Louis x2, wigg, Tatum, Langton, crutcher, green,l Collins, Doncaster, kennett and Lawson to make up the field. Of course there are stronger Brits (boococks Morton) not in that list but who weren't really nearly men 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Talking of Brit "nearly men", what about Ken McKinlay and Arthur Forrest? Or Ron How? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Even if simmo had beaten pc, pc could still have claimed a run off by beating mauger, rather than being able to settle for second. And of course if mauger hadn't had an engine failure maybe he would have beaten them both to the title. Simmo came close sure, but that's why I emphasised not THAT close. I'd consider riders who missed out in a run off, jessup in 78 or Carter (and even l Collins) in 82 as being closer. Where would Simmons come in a meeting of "nearly Brits". I'd have split, Parker and jessup as the top 3, with simmo and Carter as the strongest other candidates. Add Louis x2, wigg, Tatum, Langton, crutcher, green,l Collins, Doncaster, kennett and Lawson to make up the field. Of course there are stronger Brits (boococks Morton) not in that list but who weren't really nearly men Doncaster and Kennett i would not have them in my list but they were both excellent riders a hard subject which is great as we all have different opinions.!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Tbh Sid they only made the 16 as that is how many "nearly" Brits there are. If it was a list of top 20 Brits not to win the title neither of them (nor some others such as les Collins) would be on it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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