mikebv Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) The squad system much as people say they dislike it is the way forward............its proven to work in Sweden and Poland............ and the irony is that in lots of cases the guests that come in can earn much more than the rider they are replacing, yet squads are too expensive? supply and demand rules dictate that the 'track specialist' (aka a ringer) brought in as a guest can often earn his best pay night of the year.... crackers.... Edited August 9, 2015 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) Simply not the money in the sport now to pay for what they have, hence distress flares going up around the country... You only have to see the 'great crowds' that turn up when teams do £5/£10 admission to see that the current admission costs are too high... Paying more 'Top Riders' and increasing team strengths will mean circa £30 - £40 admission fees... Crowds will dwindle to nothing if they try that... Bottom line is you cannot pay around 9k a night for three GP riders (and then spend around a further 3k on the other four riders) on crowds that would give most non league football team owners sleepless nights (and the part time ones pay their whole squad of 18 players collectively around 3k a week tops)... Speedway needs to very quickly cut its cloth accordingly, reduce its costs dramatically and set an admission fee that the punters feels delivers value for money and meets their stretched disposable income... If not then it simply wont move forwards, and any entity which doesnt evolve simply becomes extinct... Can't agree on most of that ..as I said clubs with no gp starts and low budget teams are in big trouble . if you get a big enough crowd you can pay top riders and make it work. You don't to have to have 3 gp riders in fact seeing there is only 8 teams and only 15 gp riders then it can't happen anyhow . Poole have one of the highest wage bills but are one of the only clubs who see a profit and I know Terry Russell have been very happy with the figures at Swindon even thou they now have two gp riders and the extra fans Ward is bringing in he is almost paying for himself as well as bringing in fans when he rides away . So just to write it off as we can't pay top riders is untrue . Year in year out we bring in the same rules that make teams weaker and we lose more fans and then people come up with a great idea . lets cut costs and lower the standard again , in all the mad idea's I see on here running pl and el matches not on the same night is one of the better one's and might help bringing back some better riders and well as stopping riders in each league missing so many matches . Edited August 9, 2015 by orion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Panda Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 and the irony is that in lots of cases the guests that come in can earn much more than the rider they are replacing, yet squads are too expensive? supply and demand rules dictate that the 'track specialist' (aka a ringer) brought in as a guest can often earn his best pay night of the year.... crackers.... And of course the squad system would do away with the need for guests and rider replacement.................. RP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy robin Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 The squad system much as people say they dislike it is the way forward............its proven to work in Sweden and Poland............ The other thing that is needed and I have said this before is that promoters need to get out there and promote..............instead of sitting on their backsides expecting the world to come to them.............find ways of raising awareness at schools (I know Poole did and I think still do this) getting organisations to support them.............go out and advertise more instead of relying on the local press for publicity.............go to shows (example would be something like the events they have in Poole Park or the New Forest Show) Find other sponsors to compliment the main team sponsor..............and get individual rider sponsors more involved........... Just a few thoughts............... RP Yet in the last few weeks in Sweded teams have gone with R/R so why do that if they have squads?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 And of course the squad system would do away with the need for guests and rider replacement.................. RP Would it ? Sweden have rr all the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 The squad system much as people say they dislike it is the way forward............its proven to work in Sweden and Poland............ RP Might work in Poland and Sweden, be will not work here. You take into consideration of the cost involved. The majority of clubs couldn't and wouldn't stand it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*JJ Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 I agree with that but would add that in addition to bringing better riders back we also need to produce more of our own. Part of the problem is not enough British riders coming into the sport. When George Barclay was running his training school at Lakeside a few years ago he had people coming from as far away as Cornwall. Obviously there won't be many who can keep that up and need facilities nearer to home. A lot of good riders like Scott Nicholls got into the sport through junior grass track but grass track in general has shrunk the same.way speedway has in recent years. We have had some decent ex -moto crossers come into the sport, like Craig Cook, The Worralls and Richard Lawson and more should be done to attract them, and giving them better breaks. What amazes me when talking to NL riders is that quite few have absolutely no idea when it comes to set ups. It. Would nt take much to give those guys some basic help and set them on the right road more quickly. There are actually any number of riders coming into the sport: see Richard Hollingsworth's 100-heat amateur racing! Where you are right is the almost total lack of help, advice and encouragement from nearly all promoters. Which leads to your second paragraph ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj350z Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 Anyone know how much it costs to get in to a meeting in Sweden? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruiser McHuge Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 i still maintain a squad system would be too expensive for most clubs....it would be mainly to cover for the top riders i assume so you sign a top rider and the expensive contract that comes with him and then sign another top rider as a back up in the squad.....that back up rider is going to want a contract for being tied to that club for a season...they will want to be properly prepared for when they are needed, which will probably be at short notice a lot of the time....they will want their own competitive equipment at hand to ride, not fly in and ride a borrowed bike........ teams cannot afford one top rider so to pay another or others to be part of the squad is going to be expensive...i cannot see a top rider signing a squad contract without a decent retainer....even more so if the team then operate a horses for courses policy.....it would be expensive .......and you'd still need double up riders and guests for lower order riders.......i can't see it working at all myself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonHWeiner Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) 3 comments: We went to the £5 match at Lakeside a fortnight ago and then to Brandon on the Friday, with full price admission. The crowd was bigger at Brandon and almost reminded me of the old days (when they did wear black leathers - or blue in the case of Booey!). I can't remember the Golden Helmet, but the Bronze Helmet in the National League seems popular (eg last month the Coventry Storm lost away to the Kent Kings. Then Dan Greenwood beat Ben Morley in heat 15a to win the bronze helmet. Most fans stayed to watch it enthusiastically.) I have really enjoyed watching the fast track reserves (though being a Bees fan, I may be biased). The reserves have produced some great races, often beating the top heat leaders when used as tactical substitutes. In the reserve races, we have seen some great battles between eg Jason Garrity and Kyle Newman or Jason Garrity and Lewis Kerr (glad he's on the mend). The big question is what happens to the likes of Garrity next season? Edited August 10, 2015 by Bees of 69 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex2000 Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 Surely if more teams drop out of EL eg Lakeside as it is highly unlikely they will move to Kent and have EL from there it will be unviable to run as even now half the teams will make the playoffs. I think EL is the most pointless out of them all really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pints Or Points ? Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 Anyone know how much it costs to get in to a meeting in Sweden? Went to a meeting last season - and if memory serves it was 160 Swedish K's - which equated to approx. £13 at the time .......Or what some National League Teams are charging in this country at present !! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruiser McHuge Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 The old style Golden Helmet was great when it was a monthly home and away best of 3 challenge with the holder defending against a nominated monthly challenger....it was a great spectacle.......but totally unworkable today.......to get a top rider to travel to a track for 2 or 3 match races would be impossible ...to get 2 top riders to travel to a neutral track for a decider would be even more impossible.....those days have long gone.....and when they changed it to the holder defending it every meeting against the opposing top scorer just didn't take off and they'd be no point bringing that back.. And the new starting rules have been one of the better introductions speedway brought in...the starts are much fairer now than before...to go back would be ridiculous.... 2 valve engines ?......they haven't been around since the mid 70's.....no Motorsport goes that much retro ! There was a lot to admire about 70's speedway and yes the sport was in a far better state but the whole sporting climate has changed since then and certainly the whole speedway climate has and the world has changed with far more attractions to stop people attending......i.just re introducing all the 70's stuff that worked then wouldn't make a blind bit of difference in today's world.... The Elite League needs more teams and it needs more top riders , not less....it needs riders people see on TV all riding locally here somewhere...the question is , how can that be afforded ?.....it's a vicious circle......I think more clubs and more top riders are needed for more fans to be attracted but how do you get more clubs and more top riders in the first place ?.... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 The Elite League needs more teams and it needs more top riders , not less....it needs riders people see on TV all riding locally here somewhere...the question is , how can that be afforded ?.....it's a vicious circle......I think more clubs and more top riders are needed for more fans to be attracted but how do you get more clubs and more top riders in the first place ?.... The way things are you don't. You might just have a chance if you compress the season from April to September with no cup comps. But still the majority of clubs would never beable to afford the big boys demands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadrianDog Posted August 11, 2015 Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Look, for a start, I have only perused this thread and may have missed a prior allusion to this idea, but here goes. What about a system where the currant top ranked reserves, your Garritty, Newman, Kerr etc. are pooled and picked by the EL clubs for a main body place. We continue to have one 'protected' Brit qualified rider at reserve, but open up the remaining birth to any existing rider, regardless of nationality. To balance the change a second main body rider should also be eligible for GB call up only. The promoters still get a cost reduction to team building costs, but the very good crop of PL riders are given back their chance to shine at EL level. I know that as an PL fan my grasp of EL politics is limited, but truly, the EL is missing some damn good riders purely because they are deemed too good for FTS yet not good enough or born in the right place to be considered. Are there enough riders around these days to stifle any of them. I am all in favour of a system to progress Brit riders but saying two or three of the seven must qualify as GB should be enough ala. Sweden or Poland. Where they ride should be less important than allowing them to shine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 valve Posted August 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2015 The way things are you don't. You might just have a chance if you compress the season from April to September with no cup comps. But still the majority of clubs would never beable to afford the big boys demands. Can anybody provide an insight into what the cost differentials are in terms of "Top riders" "very good riders" and FTR as featured in the Elite League? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert72 Posted August 12, 2015 Report Share Posted August 12, 2015 Change the Elite league name would be good as it's far from Elite 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 13, 2015 Report Share Posted August 13, 2015 Two major things are required for the EL... 1. Integrity...... no matter how you try and justify it, (and by no means an isolated example) Coventry's Chris Harris scoring 11 points for Swindon in a 14 point win at Wolverhampton on Monday thus improving Swindon's chances of qualifying for the play offs so they can then possibly knock Chris Harris' team out of the competition is simply ludicrous and unacceptable in a sport desperate for credibility and acceptance in a wider sporting context... and when a good many 'loyal' supporters simply don't care who wins the league due to the final by preceded by a series of non stop 'select meetings' it cannot make selling the sport as 'professional' easy can it? 2. Costs reductions which allow admission fees that deliver value for money in the eyes of the fans.. as we see when the lower admission 'specials' are done, the track ends up with their 'best gate of the season', not a co-incidence surely? therefore it proves without any doubt that at the 'right price' there still is (sometimes significant) demand for the sport. now the sport just needs to deliver costs that allow that 'right price' every week... Neither points easy to deliver given the current (often self inflicted) malaise, but I would suggest crucial to the EL's survival never mind growth. Some tough decisions need to be taken for the good of the sport in the close season, is there enough will to do it though?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmc82 Posted August 13, 2015 Report Share Posted August 13, 2015 To continue from your point above, Harris also guested and helped Poole get points when they are the team that could finish above his own. It's crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB252 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 You can solve some problems by going back to the 1997 EL format of 6 man teams. That's one less guest that teams need to find on any given night! If an EL is to be retained then a couple of midweek nights is a must. Problem with that is that established weekend tracks like Coventry would go out of business in a matter of weeks as people won't watch midweek speedway. Two regional PL standard divisions could be the only viable option. Again, 6 man teams to be considered to alleviate rider availability issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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