E I Addio Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) Poole are putting on the riband as a fixture filler, wouldnt more turn up for a koc match?They might at Poole but if you think back to 2011 , just after the Winter of Discontent we had a 10 team EL but at that stage Kings Lynn and Eastbourne were saying they could only afford to run 14 or 15 meetings so we had that ridiculous league where you met some teams twice and others once, no Craven Shield , and that revamped KO cup without KL and Eastie that never appealed to anyone. One thought that has occurred to me as a result of t his discussion is tha the r ace format really needs changing. After you have seen, for example the two number 1's race each other 3 times in the A fixture and anothe r 3 times in the. B fixture do we really want to keep seeing them race each other again in any meeting. The more I. Think about it the mo re I wonder if the present EL format is partly to blame for falling crowds, with gate positions that favour one team in the first half of the meeting then favour the opposing team in the send half, in stead of being more evenly alternatived, protected heats with some reserves totally mis s matched, and. Heatleaders racing each other 3 times a night. Just a thought. L Edited August 8, 2015 by E I Addio 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 the Winter of Discontent L 1979, remember it well. Back to the thread.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregoryM Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 They might at Poole but if you think back to 2011 , just after the Winter of Discontent we had a 10 team EL but at that stage Kings Lynn and Eastbourne were saying they could only afford to run 14 or 15 meetings so we had that ridiculous league where you met some teams twice and others once, no Craven Shield , and that revamped KO cup without KL and Eastie that never appealed to anyone. One thought that has occurred to me as a result of t his discussion is tha the r ace format really needs changing. After you have seen, for example the two number 1's race each other 3 times in the A fixture and anothe r 3 times in the. B fixture do we really want to keep seeing them race each other again in any meeting. The more I. Think about it the mo re I wonder if the present EL format is partly to blame for falling crowds, with gate positions that favour one team in the first half of the meeting then favour the opposing team in the send half, in stead of being more evenly alternatived, protected heats with some reserves totally mis s matched, and. Heatleaders racing each other 3 times a night. Just a thought. L A very good point IMHO. Haven't thought about all the consequences - although the FTRs might be problematic - but what about this for something different? Have the 'A' fixture as now, but use the old 13 heat format and, like in the Polish Ekstraliga, have two nominated races in heats 14 & 15 in the 'B' fixture. Go the whole hog and replace the tac ride with the old tac sub rule and choice of gate positions between riders, or for a team to choose to 'swop' the gate positions whilst they 6 or more points in arrears. Yes, riders still could still end up meeting 3 times, but at least it would mix it up a bit and have the 1 & 2 and 5 & 4 partnerships reinroduced to ride together for possibly more chances of team riding. Just something to think about or to be pulled to pieces by other posters!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) A radical approach is what the EL needs... Team numbers? Seven man, six man, five man, four man, three man two man one man and his dog went to mow? etc etc etc... Bottom line is promoters need to reduce costs for themselves and the riders so admission can be reduced... Maybe a salary cap? Six man teams salaried with say 6k per team the limit? No1 and 2 getting 1.5k a match each? Riders 3+4 getting 1k each and fast track reserves picking up 500 quid a night ? That would mean 12k per home meeting to pay two home and away matches? £15 quid admission ex vat would need 1000 punters per match to pay the rider bills. (surely achievable)? .. Sponsorship/Sky money can be used to pay the rent and running costs as needed ... Ten teams in the EL would mean 36 meetings per season if home and away twice, meaning top two could earn 54k, (without personal sponsorship) not a fortune but 'not bad' for a little over six months work, and certainly a damn sight more than most other 'good' motor sport competitors earn in other sports... Maybe the GP riders wouldn't ride for this money but maybe other 'good' riders would? Six man teams with two Brits at reserve and at least one Brit minimum per team could be the answer...? And lets be honest does paying 3k a night to a GP rider really impact the gate that much in cash return from 'extra attendance'? (or would each track lose 3k if no GP riders are there)? I would say not.. Run the EL Monday/Wednesday when no PL meetings, letting all Brits 'double up/down' (like sweden does for its own riders)... Running six man teams should ensure 'middle order' riders are 'more plentiful' thus injuries can be covered by 'free agents' rather than 'guests' (good luck with that!)... We know we don't need world class talent to have a great speedway meeting, just four riders in every race with commensurate ability is what is required, a great race is just that regardless of what the riders earn and who they are.. Maybe a step backwards or two, to take several forward is the way to go? Edited August 8, 2015 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) We have been cutting costs and teams strengths for last 20 years ..it's not worked . PL teams are in massive trouble due to poor crowds and have no gp riders . in what other sport or anything would you be trying get rid of the people who are likely to bring the crowds in ? We need find a way to bring better riders back not turn them away so the standard go's up in all leagues Edited August 8, 2015 by orion 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) We have been cutting costs and teams strengths for last 20 years ..it's not worked . PL teams are in massive trouble due to poor crowds and have no gp riders . in what other sport or anything would you be trying get rid of the people who are likely to bring the crowds in ? We need find a way to bring better riders back not turn them away so the standard go's up in all leagues Simply not the money in the sport now to pay for what they have, hence distress flares going up around the country... You only have to see the 'great crowds' that turn up when teams do £5/£10 admission to see that the current admission costs are too high... Paying more 'Top Riders' and increasing team strengths will mean circa £30 - £40 admission fees... Crowds will dwindle to nothing if they try that... Bottom line is you cannot pay around 9k a night for three GP riders (and then spend around a further 3k on the other four riders) on crowds that would give most non league football team owners sleepless nights (and the part time ones pay their whole squad of 18 players collectively around 3k a week tops)... Speedway needs to very quickly cut its cloth accordingly, reduce its costs dramatically and set an admission fee that the punters feels delivers value for money and meets their stretched disposable income... If not then it simply wont move forwards, and any entity which doesnt evolve simply becomes extinct... Edited August 9, 2015 by mikebv 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 i know of a few teams that would like to see the draft reduced to one brit u21, (surely a backwardstep) squads will again be wanted by one team in partic, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice Of Reason Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) If we continue to go down the line of 'speedway austerity' ( or even Speedway Austerity 'light' if Kendall, Burnham and Cooper were in charge of the BSPA/SCB) then basically, we are on a road to nowhere. What are the options? Cut costs, and make the sport an even more lightweight product that what we have now? The risk? This sport spiralling into oblivion, with minimal 'die hard' supporters still turning up every week; accompanied with their travel rugs and thermos flasks. Or do we find promoters, with significant enthusiasm, wedge, and business nouse, to ditch Sky Sports and find a new shop window - via the main channels, that's going to spread the message to many, many more potential new supporters? Do we find a new breed of owners that actually LISTEN to what fans are saying? Do we find guys that are successful enough in business to know the future of our sport lies solely upon providing a consistent, value for money product; and based upon an AFFORDABLE entry price? Just to add, and I'm genuinely sorry to say this, but the term 'promoter' is an utter misnomor as far as most teams are concerned in the EL (including my own team - Lakeside). I don't think that Stuart Douglas has been to a meeting more than once in the past two years? Yea, he is a busy man. Who isn't? He may bankroll us, but where's the passion? The bottom line is we either get new blood into this sport, that demonstrates enthusiasm and commitment to succeed; or else we tread this well worn road into utter obilvion. Let's remember that our promoters meet anually; seemingly to inflict upon us ill-advised/ill-informed changes, pipe-dreams and rhetoric. I truly believe that within the next few years, the current custodians of our clubs will indeed send this sport into utter oblivion. In order for Speedway to survive, this sport needs a raft of significant changes. However, I really doubt whether the key players within our sport even realise it. And, if they did, then SURELY we would not be in the downward-spiralling position that we are in now? Edited August 9, 2015 by The Voice Of Reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyderd Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) Bring in Micheal J Fox to chair the BSPA, then he can transport us back to the 70's / 80's when we had proper speedway. Sorted. Edited August 9, 2015 by hyderd 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shale Searcher Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 There are still the haves and have nots in British Speedway, Poole being at the top of the pile in terms of crowd levels and general running... Why is this, and why can't other clubs try and emulate them instead of criticising them....? I am not a Poole fan, or hater.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 Unfortunately, there' no quick fix to the problems that bestows our speedway now. It would impossible to recapture the same scenario we enjoyed back in the 70's and 80's. But we should be able to learn from all the positives we had then, when speedway was second only to football in terms of popularity. A big factor then was VFM. Earning then around £100 per week, it was easily affordable to take the wife and 2 kiddies out every Saturday night to watch the beloved Stars. Then there were at least 20 odd races and the evening lasted the whole night. Even when adding the costs of, Sweets, Burgers, Program and Drinks it wasn't a disastrous affair. The terraces were usually full and the atmosphere was exciting. We were never the best team and had to fight really hard to win matches, But that what the crowds appreciated. The riders effort was totally committed to the cause, something that is not always evident these days....... The biggest factor now, compared to back then, is the riders and their attitude. Whereas years gone by, it was the club that held the upper hand and the riders were pleased to have a team to ride for. Now the riders are king and can hold the sport and clubs to ransom. Most riding regularly in 3 or 4 countries each week, they can pick and choose where they ride and dictate the costs for their services. Rider loyalty is very different now. Where once, rider were professional people doing numerous jobs, now they are Professional Riders and their existence and costs, has changed the sport dramatically. This one issue of rider affordability is the over bearing reason why the costs have risen, causing the popularity to drop. A big problem highlighted here is, If the sport can't retain the support from the hard core fan base that has always existed, what chance has it got of bring new blood to the table???? I don't think there is a quick fix. It is a massive problem, one that needs a structured approach for the years ahead. Changing rules on a whim, and implementing half thought out ideas is not the way forward. Going back to the old 13 heat format plus 2 nominated heats, In my opinion, would be a step in the right direction..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 You only have to see the 'great crowds' that turn up when teams do £5/£10 admission to see that the current admission costs are too high... The problem is, even when clubs do these offers, they are very poorly promoted. Swindon have done both this season and yet I work for the largest employer in the town and there wasn't a single poster, flyer or whatever promoting these offers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 The problem is, even when clubs do these offers, they are very poorly promoted. Swindon have done both this season and yet I work for the largest employer in the town and there wasn't a single poster, flyer or whatever promoting these offers. and I may be wrong, however it doesn't appear that any marketing gets done on the night when the BIG crowd turns up... captive audiences should go away with at least their details in the database of the business visited for further marketing enticements.... free car stickers, flyers with the fixture list, money off coupons etc etc could also be handed out... the free/low admission meeting should be the start of a sustained plan to attract regulars to the sport not just a standalone 'one off' that leaves promoters amazingly wondering why the following week they didnt all come back! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 Spot on Mike. Swindon used to send out an weekly email newletter, but this died a death a few seasons ago. The funny thing is, when Swindon did £5 entry they had around double their usual attendance. This shows there is an underlying support for speedway in Swindon. The problem is, the next week entry fee is back up to £17 and attendance back down to usual levels. There must be a sweet spot, somewhere around £10-£12 would be my guess, which would maximise income. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 and I may be wrong, however it doesn't appear that any marketing gets done on the night when the BIG crowd turns up... captive audiences should go away with at least their details in the database of the business visited for further marketing enticements.... free car stickers, flyers with the fixture list, money off coupons etc etc could also be handed out... the free/low admission meeting should be the start of a sustained plan to attract regulars to the sport not just a standalone 'one off' that leaves promoters amazingly wondering why the following week they didnt all come back! if you offer free tickets in return for email addresses you can then do what you suggest other lines of business do it - its a basic marketing method Spot on Mike. Swindon used to send out an weekly email newletter, but this died a death a few seasons ago. The funny thing is, when Swindon did £5 entry they had around double their usual attendance. This shows there is an underlying support for speedway in Swindon. The problem is, the next week entry fee is back up to £17 and attendance back down to usual levels. There must be a sweet spot, somewhere around £10-£12 would be my guess, which would maximise income. when i started a thread about a year ago to say that 10/12 was about right i got slaughtered on here. You have to operate at the market level - you are competing for money with other attractions. Thereafter of course comes the hard part - getting the expenses down to afford that kind of entry fee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 That would mean 12k per home meeting to pay two home and away matches? £15 quid admission ex vat would need 1000 punters per match to pay the rider bills. P Add VAT to your £15 and the total admission is almost up to what is being charged now, and that is before you start averaging out concessions, under 16's etc , and you also have to factor in rain-offs, and smaller crowds on the nights people stay away because rain is forecast and the meeting hoes ahead. Whichever way you look at it the answer is not so much cutting costs as increasing revenue by better crowds. For a lot of clubs an extra 100 through the gate every meeting would make massive difference to survival. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 when i started a thread about a year ago to say that 10/12 was about right i got slaughtered on here. You have to operate at the market level - you are competing for money with other attractions. Thereafter of course comes the hard part - getting the expenses down to afford that kind of entry fee. Speedway, the only business where they address falling sales by increasing prices and reducing quality! 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) We have been cutting costs and teams strengths for last 20 years ..it's not worked . PL teams are in massive trouble due to poor crowds and have no gp riders . in what other sport or anything would you be trying get rid of the people who are likely to bring the crowds in ? We need find a way to bring better riders back not turn them away so the standard go's up in all leagues I agree with that but would add that in addition to bringing better riders back we also need to produce more of our own. Part of the problem is not enough British riders coming into the sport. When George Barclay was running his training school at Lakeside a few years ago he had people coming from as far away as Cornwall. Obviously there won't be many who can keep that up and need facilities nearer to home. A lot of good riders like Scott Nicholls got into the sport through junior grass track but grass track in general has shrunk the same.way speedway has in recent years. We have had some decent ex -moto crossers come into the sport, like Craig Cook, The Worralls and Richard Lawson and more should be done to attract them, and giving them better breaks. What amazes me when talking to NL riders is that quite few have absolutely no idea when it comes to set ups. It. Would nt take much to give those guys some basic help and set them on the right road more quickly. Edited August 9, 2015 by E I Addio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shale Searcher Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 always cutting costs, never improving the product and gate, that's why we are where we are amongst some other factors.. Except, it's been cut down to the bone, crowds are down to the bone, it can't go any further.. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Panda Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 The squad system much as people say they dislike it is the way forward............its proven to work in Sweden and Poland............ The other thing that is needed and I have said this before is that promoters need to get out there and promote..............instead of sitting on their backsides expecting the world to come to them.............find ways of raising awareness at schools (I know Poole did and I think still do this) getting organisations to support them.............go out and advertise more instead of relying on the local press for publicity.............go to shows (example would be something like the events they have in Poole Park or the New Forest Show) Find other sponsors to compliment the main team sponsor..............and get individual rider sponsors more involved........... Just a few thoughts............... RP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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