Grand Central Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) What's more factual and truthful about it than anyone else's opinion? I notice Philippe didn't mention that James Easter has also been a shareholder.Saints preserve us! The conspiracy is outrageous. The revelations about Ted Heath will be wiped from the front pages. Edited August 7, 2015 by Grand Central 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 "You can water a product down but you are still going to have to pay certain riders what will be seen as “market value”…." of course that is correct but a rider asking unreasonable money should in theory be easier to replace if he is not a world star and yes certain non star riders will suddenly become quite attractive to teams there's always going to be haves and have nots - there is in any sport but we'll soon be at the stage when the EL will consist of 4/5 teams - there has to be a way of embracing Berwick, Redcar, etc in a competition and it has to be at their level not Poole's, however that is achieved Don't forget this may only be a temporary situation - the sport could begin to market itself better, make sure trackes are properly prepared and it may grow again in which case we can go back to Div 1 and 2 (and 3) Does anyone have a better realistic proposal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
customhouseregular Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 I've said it before and I shall say it again. If speedway was more popular in 1965 than it is now we need to learn the lessons from history. Give the public what was proven to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 SCB has offered an opinion - nothing more. My opinion differs but i haven't got the energy to slog it out with blinkered people - I'm just stating reality as i see it. We can't afford to go on as we are. There are answers - use juniors, smaller teames, etc but i can't be arsed arguing No he hasn't, SCB has given the facts. You're now moving the goalposts by suggesting the use of 'juniors'. You were complaining that we were suggesting that one big league wouldn't be of a higher quality with closer racing.. using juniors clearly isn't going to help that problem, in fact it will make it worse. I've said it before and I shall say it again. If speedway was more popular in 1965 than it is now we need to learn the lessons from history. Give the public what was proven to work. Speedways problem is that it is too much like it was in 1965. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 "You can water a product down but you are still going to have to pay certain riders what will be seen as “market value”…." of course that is correct but a rider asking unreasonable money should in theory be easier to replace if he is not a world star and yes certain non star riders will suddenly become quite attractive to teams there's always going to be haves and have nots - there is in any sport but we'll soon be at the stage when the EL will consist of 4/5 teams - there has to be a way of embracing Berwick, Redcar, etc in a competition and it has to be at their level not Poole's, however that is achieved Don't forget this may only be a temporary situation - the sport could begin to market itself better, make sure trackes are properly prepared and it may grow again in which case we can go back to Div 1 and 2 (and 3) Does anyone have a better realistic proposal Its not the fans that should have to come up with realistic solutions it's the Promotions IMO .(if they think anything needs done).Personaly I think if is difficult task to revive the sport without radical changes and fresh ideas,Mines would be regionalisation and possibly bringing back 4tt qualifiers to creat some extra fixtures and a shorter season.You might have to lower the standard to revive the sport.The original 2nd division in 1968 was not the high standard that it developed into when introduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPNY Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) I'm not a huge Cricket fan but few years ago I met Robert Key who was at the time Kent Captain. He told me they make more money in a single 20 20 game then they do in the rest of the county season. The traditionalists hate 20 20 but the fact is it's been brilliant for the sport.Speedway can no longer say it was popular way back when so let's go back to the way it was. We need to come up with ideas on how to move it forward.Now all we need to do is come up with those ideas... Edited August 7, 2015 by PNYC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 What's more factual and truthful about it than anyone else's opinion? I notice Philippe didn't mention that James Easter has also been a shareholder.Has speedway journalism really got anything to do with the state the sport is in.!!! The letters page was the forum before social media began, that was about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 No he hasn't, SCB has given the facts. You're now moving the goalposts by suggesting the use of 'juniors'. You were complaining that we were suggesting that one big league wouldn't be of a higher quality with closer racing.. using juniors clearly isn't going to help that problem, in fact it will make it worse. Speedways problem is that it is too much like it was in 1965. sorry i have no idea what you're talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 sorry i have no idea what you're talking about We've gathered that throughout the course of the thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 All I'm suggesting is a bigger league with higher quality riders and more variety for the fans (ie not seeing the same team at the track 4+ times a year) may go some way to improving things. We don't need higher quality riders, you can get good racing in the National League. What we want is better presentation at the tracks not just 15 heats and the rest of the evening standing around in silence and the 7 riders named in the official team actually turning up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 We've gathered that throughout the course of the thread. very funny 'You're now moving the goalposts by suggesting the use of 'juniors'. what the hell are you on about - let me clarify what I am trying to convey all I'm saying is that sufficient riders can be found to man a combined league without GP and other top riders some of whom may be juniors currently, some of whom may be recently retired, whatever ideal solution? No - Weakened teams? Yes - Some riders considerably better than others? - Yes Less riders per team? - maybe I'm trying to make constructive suggestions and i would love to read others' constructive suggestions 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Philippe is in a more privileged and influential position that most of us. As the proprietor of the only industry magazine (at least in Britain), he's in the position to ask the difficult questions and his views would carry some weight within the industry. For example, with respect to the way speedway has sold itself both domestically and internationally, is the sport being well served by these arrangements, and how do they compare with equivalent sports? Writing stuff like 'the sport is at crossroads', 'where do we go from here', 'something must be done' is all very well, but we've all known that for at least 20 years and it doesn't solve any problems. What it needs is an in-depth expose of how the sport is run, what the costs and revenues really like (i.e. how much are tracks losing), who is taking what out of the sport (if anything), and then what can the sport afford to do? Polling random suggestions from riders and fans will not get you any distance towards the answers because most of them don't understand the organisational and financial realities. Other questions like is the sport selling itself as well as it could to television and sponsors and should it be making money out of its premier events (as with other sports) also need to be asked. For example, all county cricket clubs lose money on their operations, but they're subsidised from the revenue generated by test matches and ODIs which goes to the governing body rather than some private American corporation. Okay, speedway is not cricket, but Philippe has not once questioned the cosy arrangement, and can only parrot that the SGP is good for the sport, despite the fact the organisation is quite clearly comical in many respects. I do accept that in such an incestuous industry like speedway it's not possible to be as critical or investigative as in other sectors (not least because some members of the BSPA were shareholders of the Spar's publishing company, and of course now there's a business relationship with the SGP), but for many years it was a symbiotic relationship in that the tracks needed publicity as much as the Spar needed to cooperate with the tracks, so I don't think it should have been completely impossible to have been a bit more hard hitting at times. Of course, with the advent of Internet, the sport is much less reliant on traditional forms of media, so the Spar probably has less potential to be influential these days. I don't currently live in Britain, and my nearest speedway track is probably several hundred miles away. However, I've spent enough time and money following the sport over the past 35 or so years to have an opinion, and as a subscriber to the Spar I think that qualifies me to comment on articles in the magazine. However, it's actually the people who no longer go to meetings that you should be asking - not those diehards that still do. The organisation of the sport has always been something of a joke, but the ongoing comedy aspect was partly why I used to continue to go. That said, it was a cheap form of entertainment and you generally knew there would be a meeting each week between mostly full-strength sides. The sport started going wrong when hobbyist promoters started to predominate, costs were allowed to increase above inflation and the ability of the sport to sustain them, and riders were allowed to ride in multiple competitions with conflicting fixture lists. I personally got sick and tired of paying 15 quid or whatever, to stand around on a terrace with a dodgy PA and indeterminable delays between every heat, and then have the incumbent promoter publicly insult the intelligence of the mugs who did turn up. You took the words right out of my mouth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 I'm not a huge Cricket fan but few years ago I met Robert Key who was at the time Kent Captain. He told me they make more money in a single 20 20 game then they do in the rest of the county season. The traditionalists hate 20 20 but the fact is it's been brilliant for the sport. Speedway can no longer say it was popular way back when so let's go back to the way it was. We need to come up with ideas on how to move it forward. Now all we need to do is come up with those ideas... Throughout history speedway has traditionally been a match between 2 teams on a shale track,500 cc machines with no brakes .4 riders in a race over 4 laps all with different helmet colours .I'm not sure how much you can revolutionise / re-brand the sport from what it is.The promoters have brought in play offs,double point tactical rides to try to improve / spice up / invigorate the competition but it seems we are still at crisis point.The cricket analogy is a good one but that was to give the sport a short exciting night out experience,that's precisely what speedway should be providing in its present form at the moment.If people at present don't feel excited / entertained by watching 15 heats of speedway for 2 hours on a summer night then I don't think there's much you can do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Throughout history speedway has traditionally been a match between 2 teams on a shale track,500 cc machines with no brakes .4 riders in a race over 4 laps all with different helmet colours .I'm not sure how much you can revolutionise / re-brand the sport from what it is.The promoters have brought in play offs,double point tactical rides to try to improve / spice up / invigorate the competition but it seems we are still at crisis point.The cricket analogy is a good one but that was to give the sport a short exciting night out experience,that's precisely what speedway should be providing in its present form at the moment.If people at present don't feel excited / entertained by watching 15 heats of speedway for 2 hours on a summer night then I don't think there's much you can do you're right there's not a lot you can do but the first thing to do is make sure you can pay the bills and survive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 very funny 'You're now moving the goalposts by suggesting the use of 'juniors'. what the hell are you on about - let me clarify what I am trying to convey all I'm saying is that sufficient riders can be found to man a combined league without GP and other top riders some of whom may be juniors currently, some of whom may be recently retired, whatever ideal solution? No - Weakened teams? Yes - Some riders considerably better than others? - Yes Less riders per team? - maybe I'm trying to make constructive suggestions and i would love to read others' constructive suggestions It really does help when you have some consistency in your posts, or perhaps take the time to read threads before wading in. PNYC was advocating a bigger league... fine no problem, that's his opinion. However he was stating it would be a higher quality with less of a gap between riders in races.. THIS is what was explained to him was not going to happen.. You then wade in stating he was completely correct.. Yet know here we are barely a page later and you admit the league would be weaker.. thus agreeing with those (SCB in this case) who you were accusing of bullying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topsoil Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 You can come up with as many different variations of leagues, one big league, two leagues, or three, north / south divide or whatever, but it's moving the deckchairs.... Until promoters invest in marketing the product to attract new fans and sponsors, then entertain them enough to keep them then, nothing will change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) Throughout history speedway has traditionally been a match between 2 teams on a shale track,500 cc machines with no brakes .4 riders in a race over 4 laps all with different helmet colours .I'm not sure how much you can revolutionise / re-brand the sport from what it is.The promoters have brought in play offs,double point tactical rides to try to improve / spice up / invigorate the competition but it seems we are still at crisis point.The cricket analogy is a good one but that was to give the sport a short exciting night out experience,that's precisely what speedway should be providing in its present form at the moment.If people at present don't feel excited / entertained by watching 15 heats of speedway for 2 hours on a summer night then I don't think there's much you can do Of course there is lots you can do. Darts has always been a game of throwing darts into a board... yet with the right marketing, promotion its now played in front of 5-10,000 spectators in the Premier League, instead of 5-600. As I have said ad infinitum, every effort has to be made to ensure big crowds are on hand for all tv meetings. Edited August 7, 2015 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Of course there is lots you can do. Darts has always been a game of throwing darts into a board... yet with the right marketing, promotion its now played in front of 5-10,000 spectators in the Premier League, instead of 5-600. As I have said ad infinitum, every effort has to be made to ensure big crowds are on hand for all tv meetings. I'd say that's because millions of folk around the country play darts so have something in common with the players they're watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) I'd say that's because millions of folk around the country play darts so have something in common with the players they're watching. I love darts and lot of my friends do the same as cricket but none of us play it . Maybe they should put fishing on at prime time as loads of people fish .Speedway used to be massive but doubt most of crowds were speedway riders . Edited August 7, 2015 by orion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Of course there is lots you can do. Darts has always been a game of throwing darts into a board... yet with the right marketing, promotion its now played in front of 5-10,000 spectators in the Premier League, instead of 5-600. As I have said ad infinitum, every effort has to be made to ensure big crowds are on hand for all tv meetings. I watch and attend many PDC darts events.The standard of play has never been better which contributes in large to a terrific atmosphere at £30 / £40 a time I also watch speedway at Monmore Green where the standard of racing is rarely anything but average contributing to absolutely no atmosphere at £18 a time Its not hard to work out why one sport is flourishing and expanding and one sport is floundering.and shrinking ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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