Speedway Star Item

[Vince]

In ninety odd per cent of matches the tac sub worked at giving tactical interest among the audience, probably tightening the match up for extra excitement, but at the end of the day the leading team still won.

But there was just a glimmer of hope offered to the trailing side mid match and just a little extra tension for the leaders.

Fine, just what we want. Brilliant.

 

The data shows that on practice the TR performs rather similarly.

 

So the only question should be which one to use.

 

I would prefer the old tac sub, exactly as was.

But I fully understand that the TR is far cheaper for the promoters, so they will choose that one.

 

 

Unless, like me, you think that any artificial point scoring or management tactics takes something away from the best thing about Speedway which is it's simplicity. Four riders in a race, two teams of riders competing in their programmed rides the team which scores the most points wins. Anybody can understand that same as they can understand an injured rider being replaced by a lower order rider or reserve.

The only thing I would do in an effort to diminish home track advantage would be to allow the losing team to select gates 1&3 or 2&4 or if level the away team. Not a major advantage but perhaps enough to encourage promoters to prepare a track their riders can pass on when they don't make the gate.

Other rules: if riders have a punch up make sure the crowd can see it rather than fine them.

If anybody other than a rider hits a rider ban them from the pits for life.

Injured heat leaders can be replaced by any rider with a lower average. Everybody else by a reserve.

Riders to race as programmed unless injured.

2 minutes comes on as the last rider passes the chequered flag except for scheduled grading.

The rev limiter to be introduced for the start of next season.

No oversquare engines.

 

Think the sport would improve but wouldn't make hardly any difference to crowd levels, that needs a major change in the way it is marketed.

[Grand Central]

Unless, like me, you think that any artificial point scoring or management tactics takes something away from the best thing about Speedway which is it's simplicity. Four riders in a race, two teams of riders competing in their programmed rides the team which scores the most points wins. Anybody can understand that same as they can understand an injured rider being replaced by a lower order rider or reserve.

 

Quite true.

I must not be like you.

 

I have watched Speedway all my life and throughout the whole of it tactical rules have been in operation.

And I loved the old tac subs.

 

From the first moment I could fill in a programme, and add up the scores, I was quite enthralled by the tactical possibilities of a team going 6 points down.

To watch meetings with real tacticians as Team Managers like Peter Oakes with Exeter in the seventies, or John Berry and Peter Adams was a joy. So exciting, mentally stimulating and allowed so many discussions and arguments on the terraces.

 

Some of the best meetings I have seen in the 'olden days' were MADE by the tac sub.

One of the most famous I saw being Hackneys mammoth turnaround at The Shay in 1980 when they came from miles behind to win by one point at the end.

Beating MY team using tacticals.

Breathtaking, exhilarating. Heartbreaking.

Wonderful it was.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Grand Central

[BWitcher]

Quite true.

I must not be like you.

 

I have watched Speedway all my life and throughout the whole of it tactical rules have been in operation.

And I loved the old tac subs.

 

From the first moment I could fill in a programme, and add up the scores, I was quite enthralled by the tactical possibilities of a team going 6 points down.

To watch meetings with real tacticians as Team Managers like Peter Oakes with Exeter in the seventies, or John Berry and Peter Adams was a joy. So exciting, mentally stimulating and allowed so many discussions and arguments on the terraces.

 

Some of the best meetings I have seen in the 'olden days' were MADE by the tac sub.

One of the most famous I saw being Hackneys mammoth turnaround at The Shay in 1980 when they came from miles behind to win by one point at the end.

Beating MY team using tacticals.

Breathtaking, exhilarating. Heartbreaking.

Wonderful it was.

 

I completely agree!

 

We had a system that apparently was effective but not enough for sky so they forced the double tr bollox on us,

 

It was nothing to do with Sky.

 

100% about costs.

[New Science]

Quite true.

I must not be like you.

 

I have watched Speedway all my life and throughout the whole of it tactical rules have been in operation.

And I loved the old tac subs.

 

From the first moment I could fill in a programme, and add up the scores, I was quite enthralled by the tactical possibilities of a team going 6 points down.

To watch meetings with real tacticians as Team Managers like Peter Oakes with Exeter in the seventies, or John Berry and Peter Adams was a joy. So exciting, mentally stimulating and allowed so many discussions and arguments on the terraces.

 

Some of the best meetings I have seen in the 'olden days' were MADE by the tac sub.

One of the most famous I saw being Hackneys mammoth turnaround at The Shay in 1980 when they came from miles behind to win by one point at the end.

Beating MY team using tacticals.

Breathtaking, exhilarating. Heartbreaking.

Wonderful it was.

A for instance on the fairness of tactical substitutes : The team that Kings Lynn tracked on Wednesday meant that if required Iversen and Lindgren could have had 7 rides each in the possible 13 heats they were available to ride : is that fair ? All you will get with the old tac sub rule is top heavy teams with a couple of 3 ride jacket fillers.The turbo twins would ensure a gluten of titles for Poole

You are right in a lot of ways. As i have posted on here before I have been at football, rugby league, rugby union and T20 cricket matches over the summer. As for the actual sport, I wouldn't say speedway is inferior to any of these, but what separated these events from speedway was that all of these events gave the fan a full programme of entertainment. For example the rugby league event had mini rugby, fans running in zorba balls, music through good speaker systems, the T20 cricket had kids crashing into each other in bumper balls, quizzes, mascots throwing T-shirts into the crowd. Speedway is perfectly made for short bursts of entertainment between heats, tractor grading and intervals. It doesn't have to be expensive, Glasgow have kids running races against the mascot. I honestly don't think new fans to the sport will be worried about guests, rider replacement, tactical rides. Give them four riders in a race, with decent entertainment between and you will keep them happy. Fail to keep fans entertained and the sport is doomed.

Interesting that a while ago a total outsider to the sport, apologies I cannot remember his name, said in the Speedway Star that the sport will never change as long as promoters run it themselves, as all they are concerned about is looking after their own needs and not for the good of the sport. Why would the BSPA chairman want to change anything while his team is successful?

I take your point but I watch a lot of football. 80% of fans turn up within 10 minutes of the kick off,at half time they disappear for a drink/smoke/food and then a large proportion leave before the end. People come for what happens on the pitch not for the bells and whistles off it.

Edited August 21, 2015 by New Science

[Grand Central]

A for instance on the fairness of tactical substitutes : The team that Kings Lynn tracked on Wednesday meant that if required Iversen and Lindgren could have had 7 rides each in the possible 13 heats they were available to ride : is that fair ?

What are you talking about?

Kings Lynn were never behind on Wednesday, let alone 6 or 10 points behind.

Pretty stupid example.

[New Science]

Under the old system if Lynn had gone 6 points down,not inconceivable against Coventry who are top of the league, they could have effectively used NKI and Lindgren 7 times each in any of their 13 permitted heats.It was a for instance not a fact of occurrence,you didn't answer whether it was fair or not ?

[Vincent Blachshadow]

Some of the best meetings I have seen in the 'olden days' were MADE by the tac sub.

One of the best finishes in EL history was made by the t/r and the team that legitimately used them was reviled for it.

 

Does that mean the t/s was better or that artificial score adjustments are unfair?

Edited August 21, 2015 by Vincent Blackshadow

[Grand Central]

Under the old system if Lynn had gone 6 points down,not inconceivable against Coventry who are top of the league, they could have effectively used NKI and Lindgren 7 times each in any of their 13 permitted heats.It was a for instance not a fact of occurrence,you didn't answer whether it was fair or not ?

I still think it's a daft example.

If KL had gone behind by six points, it would have been a totally different match.

So it just does not ft as an argument.

 

But is it fair?

NO !

 

I have said that before, several times

Tacs subs never were.

And I don't care !

 

I loved them.

.

One of the best finishes in EL history was made by the t/r and the team that legitimately used them was reviled for it.Does that mean the t/s was better or that artificial score adjustments are unfair?

It was a damned good meeting.

No reviling anyone from me.

 

Another of my best ever meetings, the 1993 league decider won by a The Aces on the last heat.

Thank god for the tac sub that got them back in the match when they went behind.

Another wonderful night.

 

I have never been kept awake at night by the unfairness, of it all.

.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Grand Central

[The White Knight]

 

Unless, like me, you think that any artificial point scoring or management tactics takes something away from the best thing about Speedway which is it's simplicity. Four riders in a race, two teams of riders competing in their programmed rides the team which scores the most points wins. Anybody can understand that same as they can understand an injured rider being replaced by a lower order rider or reserve.

The only thing I would do in an effort to diminish home track advantage would be to allow the losing team to select gates 1&3 or 2&4 or if level the away team. Not a major advantage but perhaps enough to encourage promoters to prepare a track their riders can pass on when they don't make the gate.

Other rules: if riders have a punch up make sure the crowd can see it rather than fine them.

If anybody other than a rider hits a rider ban them from the pits for life.

Injured heat leaders can be replaced by any rider with a lower average. Everybody else by a reserve.

Riders to race as programmed unless injured.

2 minutes comes on as the last rider passes the chequered flag except for scheduled grading.

The rev limiter to be introduced for the start of next season.

No oversquare engines.

 

Think the sport would improve but wouldn't make hardly any difference to crowd levels, that needs a major change in the way it is marketed.

An excellent Post with which I 100% concur.

[daveallan81]

Very interesting save, and closer than I thought.

Would be interesting to know what the average point swing gained by using each method is, though obviously for the old ts swing can only be estimated. Similarly would be interesting in how many meetings where a side win after using a ts/tr the result was changed by the use of it (I.e. winning margin lower than swing gained)

And final thought is what is the average margin of victory in all meetings? I suspect el sides are more closely matched now than in the past (top sides weaker and bottom sides stronger) and wonder if that is why the old ts didn't result in more result swings

Thanks for the analysis daveallan

 

Average scores were:

1978 BL: 44-34

1978 NL: 45-33

2014 EL 50-41

2014 PL: 51-40

 

I ran average result figures from the 70's onwards in another thread a while ago (possibly to do with last heat deciders, can't remember) and I'm sure they came out similar to above, the home team wins by around 10. The old TS is a peculiar beast and I'm not sure you could ever analyse it in a way that would draw solid conclusions. The great Milton Keynes comeback at Edinburgh shows that you can blow your first TS and still come back to win. I'll see how the others stack up later but one thing seems clear - blow your TR and you will lose.

 

Forget all about this fairness blitzkrieg and stop judging the past by today's tawdry standards. Grand Central strikes the correct notes when he talks about excitement and anticipation, about feeling bad because your boys failed to do enough to see off the challenge - is this not how we advance and better ourselves? By overcoming obstacles, rising above the challenge. Not by crawling into a corner bleating about how you only lost because of the stupid rules. That's the 21st century talking.

 

But society has changed and unless I can get this Delorean started I'm stuck with it like the rest of you. While I'd like to see the TS rule back, the TR rule is plausible to the uninitiated, It's A Knockout references notwithstanding. It does however significantly detract from the tactical aspect, which means less talking points, less anticipation, less to enthuse about. I'm not sure the sport can afford to surrender any part of it's arsenal, no matter how trivial it may seem.

 

The damage is done now though. I mean, what credence would the sport have if it were to publicize the return of an ancient rule as an attempt to attract a bigger crowd? It would surely only attract the attention of those who, like myself, are lapsed supporters still hanging around the periphery. But we have a veritable feast of racing at our fingertips, the best of the best from across the globe (well, bits of it) right there in our living rooms. Yet that's where we choose to stay because we see nothing to entice us from our hovels. The product is naff. We don't want it.

 

Answers? None. Speedway's been dying since I first went at the end of the seventies. I've seen them come, but mostly seen them go. They've worried about everything from race formulas to points limits to tactical rules to guests to second halves, the list is both endless and repetitive across the decades. Some of the crucial changes have been almost imperceptible, others have left a giant steel-shoe print across the sport's face. But the end result is it's still slowly eroding away to nothing and I don't think there's very much anyone can do about it save try and slow it's dissolution.

 

It's the lay of the land. Things become extinct.

[Grand Central]

daveallen81 s correct in every respect.

 

It may sound fatalistic, but true.

 

For those that have fond memories of the past.

We will retain them, and wallow in them.

 

For those who enjoy the sport today, then cherish it, attend it, and enjoy it for as long as it lasts.

It will go on for years, but in a declining way.

Best accept that and get the most out of it along the way.

 

But to be honest, for those with big ideas about change. Who are convinced they know how to improve things.

Don't waste your time, money and effort; unless you can afford it easily and would enjoy chasing a pipe dream.

It will not get you anywhere.

 

I've stopped kidding myself that there is a way to achieve success any more.

But, hopefully, I'll still be here when they switch the lights off for the last time.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Grand Central

[daveallan81]

A more in-depth analysis of the TR ride shows that in 7 of the 13 cases, the TR side would have lost if the double points aspect was removed. 5 made no difference, and 1 would have ended in a draw. Quite nicely balanced I would say.

 

I've attempted to extrapolate the results from the TS era to see what difference they made. It's not entirely hypothetical - if a rider or riders fail to finish, taccy sub or not you're getting the points. I've tried to be quite harsh as well but here's how it goes for me anyway.

 

Of the 20 matches, 10 were in each league. For the BL, I say 4 were influenced by the TS, 3 were not, 1 was a very tight no, and the other 2 were not proven, just too hard to say.

 

In the NL, 2 were a yes, 2 a no, 5 were a very tight no, and 1 not proven.

 

A total of 31 TS were used. 15 resulted in a 5-1 but only 3 were the result of a double tactical. All 3 occurred in heat 8, no other heat carried a double. 9 rides failed to decrease the arrears, 2 actually increased it. The other 4 were 4-2's.

 

13 matches featured just one sub, 3 had 2 (inc one double) and 4 had 3 (inc 2 doubles).

 

Individually, points broke down like this: wins 13, paid wins 10, second 4, third 2 and fourth/no score 2.

 

The TR is so clean-cut that you can say a definite yes or no as to whether it influenced the final score. There are just too many variables to say how influential the TS was. Others would perhaps call the marginal ones differently but even so, I'd say that it pans out similar to the TR - where a team wins using a facility, half of the time they'd probably have won anyway. And when you consider that we're talking about less than 4% of matches here, then the conclusion could be that less than 2% of matches have their outcome directly affected by whatever tactical rule is in place.

[waiheke1]

Excellent analysis Dave thanks.

So it seems the ts was more effective at altering results (when you include drws resulting), but by far less than I suspect many if us thought.

Meetings are as close then as they were now, which suggests teams in the el are slightly more equal than their old BL counterparts (who had equally close matches, but that was in part due to more frequent use if tactical).

Someone stopping attending speedway due to the "unfairness" of the rule should reconsider due to the incredibly small portion of matches where the tr actually impacts on a result - about 1 in 50 matches, so you'd likely get one every two seasons attending all home meetings.

Thanks again, I must say I am surprised at the findings,but good to see this analysis

[BWitcher]

For some reason the subliminal message this thread seems to be sending out, at least as far as the double tr bollox is concerned, is that both the fans who have stopped going because of it didn't stop going due to the number of meetings it made closer and more exciting.

 

If we can work out what it is those two fans really didn't like about the double tr bollox we might be on to something.

 

Hang on, don't ask me what made me think of it but I remember a story about a record when if you played it backwards it sounded like it was saying something like 'pedersen is a knob' over and over (can't remember exactly to be honest), well I've just read one of the posts backwards and it seems to be saying, 'doubling a riders score is idiot stupid especially when a loser gets more than the winner you thick twarts'.

 

Spooky or what?

 

Nobody would argue against that DAC... except the person who stopped going and claims its about 'fairness'.

[The White Knight]

For some reason the subliminal message this thread seems to be sending out, at least as far as the double tr bollox is concerned, is that both the fans who have stopped going because of it didn't stop going due to the number of meetings it made closer and more exciting.

 

If we can work out what it is those two fans really didn't like about the double tr bollox we might be on to something.

 

Hang on, don't ask me what made me think of it but I remember a story about a record when if you played it backwards it sounded like it was saying something like 'pedersen is a knob' over and over (can't remember exactly to be honest), well I've just read one of the posts backwards and it seems to be saying, 'doubling a riders score is idiot stupid especially when a loser gets more than the winner you thick twarts'.

 

Spooky or what?

Perhaps not the words I would have picked Drop a cog.

 

But that is very true. :approve:

[Falcon Hammer]

Don't think results regarding the TR are quite so streight forward. An 8-1/7-2 especially shifts the momentum toward the team doing the chasing, and can put the leading team on the backfoot, thus effecting future heat results

[BWitcher]

Don't think results regarding the TR are quite so streight forward. An 8-1/7-2 especially shifts the momentum toward the team doing the chasing, and can put the leading team on the backfoot, thus effecting future heat results

Correct, but that is the case with all tac sub systems.

Excellent analysis Dave thanks.

So it seems the ts was more effective at altering results (when you include drws resulting), but by far less than I suspect many if us thought.

Meetings are as close then as they were now, which suggests teams in the el are slightly more equal than their old BL counterparts (who had equally close matches, but that was in part due to more frequent use if tactical).

Someone stopping attending speedway due to the "unfairness" of the rule should reconsider due to the incredibly small portion of matches where the tr actually impacts on a result - about 1 in 50 matches, so you'd likely get one every two seasons attending all home meetings.

Thanks again, I must say I am surprised at the findings,but good to see this analysis

 

It is excellent analysis but as said earlier it's somewhat flawed in that the heat formats are vastly different in the compared years.

 

Nowadays top heavy teams tend to come on strong in the second half of meetings, especially as they get setups sorted.

[arnieg]

Nowadays top heavy teams tend to come on strong in the second half of meetings, especially as they get setups sorted.

Nothing new there, anyone who remembers the inevitability of watching your team go six up against Oxford only to face Nielsen/Dugard and Nielsen/Wigg in the last two heats will recognise this situation.

 

My objection to the TR is that when you compile a team's averages the sum of all the riders points no longer equals the sum of the team's race points. And I can no longer be certain that in a meeting with no dropped points the sum of the aggregate scores is always divisible by six.

 

The recent posts on this thread have been of the highest quality seen anywhere on the BSF for some time

[Odds On]

so the biggest problem in speedway today is the TR rule?!

[The White Knight]

so the biggest problem in speedway today is the TR rule?!

No.

 

But it is one of the problems.