Speedway Star Item

[cityrebel]

You also have to cater for fans like me that don't like intervals and unnecessary delays. I like the whole show done and dusted within two hours. Football runs like clockwork to big crowds without the need for added attractions. In this age of hectic lifestyles, the majority of people haven't got time to hang around.

[PHILIPRISING]

All the tinkering in the world won't solve the basic problem of getting people in the stadiums in the first place.

 

Radical solution. In 2016 all clubs charge maximum of a tenner, if riders don't like the pay cut let them ride off into Sweden/Poland/BSI for a season. Combine it with an extreme sport type advertising campaign that can be honed to each track

 

and then hopefully

 

You have to get folk to come back. Best suggestion I have for that is get Rory Schlien to write "The Way Forward" not promoters who have been there, done it and failed miserably.

YOU seem to be suggesting that cutting the money paid to riders in the UK, which is hardly excessive, will solve all the problems. It won't. They cannot be blamed for the cost of equipment which has spiralled in recent years. We have an acute shortage of riders now. All that would happen is that more and more riders would not find the sport viable and disappear into the sunset.

[sommelier]

That's why I suggested Rory Schlien get involved. Anyone who went to his testimonial will tell you it was So far above what passes for an evening at speedway nowadays it was a totally different product.

Totally agree, the only thing wrong with that meeting it was bloody freezing!

[Bruiser McHuge]

Talking of rider shortage, where do the real youngsters of British speedway come from these days.....most tracks seem to be rented with next to no chance of use outside of a match .....not many training schools seem to be about......the pld Monday night training school at Hyde Road was always busy with youngsters having a go.

Junior grasstrack was always the main route in for talented kids but I don't think that seems as big now and not as big a route into speedway.....so where are the youngsters coming from and where are they practising their skills in the main....nationwide that is.

[Star Lady]

YOU seem to be suggesting that cutting the money paid to riders in the UK, which is hardly excessive, will solve all the problems. It won't. They cannot be blamed for the cost of equipment which has spiralled in recent years. We have an acute shortage of riders now. All that would happen is that more and more riders would not find the sport viable and disappear into the sunset.

Well the Fast track riders seem to manage. If to get BRITISH speedway back on track some journeyman foreigners lose out, watch me smile. If the sport cannot get fans in because of the costs, then the costs, to both fans and riders, are too high. If it means riders learn to tune their own engines etc, so be it.

 

Depends what you want really, to see GP riders disappear miles in front of the field on super fast bikes or 4 riders on less shiny bikes that actually provide some racing. Cut the speed, if I want to see drag racing I'd go to Santa Pod.

 

Maybe if the costs weren't so high a few more youngsters would find taking up the sport on a part time basis more viable.

 

I realise my views are radical, but after 50 years it's the best I can come up with, if you don't like them fine.

[cityrebel]

Talking of rider shortage, where do the real youngsters of British speedway come from these days.....most tracks seem to be rented with next to no chance of use outside of a match .....not many training schools seem to be about......the pld Monday night training school at Hyde Road was always busy with youngsters having a go.

Junior grasstrack was always the main route in for talented kids but I don't think that seems as big now and not as big a route into speedway.....so where are the youngsters coming from and where are they practising their skills in the main....nationwide that is.

Andrew silver said in last Saturdays raiders programme, that trainings schools have been restricted at rye recently. Sad news in yet another depressing season at hoddesdon.

[Bruiser McHuge]

It's an awkward one

 

There is no doubt that 4 equally matched low level British riders would probably put on a more entertaining meeting but I honestly believe hardly anybody outside of the old diehards would go and watch........I honestly believe that more people would be tempted to see the top stars....the higher the level of any sport attracts more people......dumbing down the sport is the easy option but is a route to disaster in my opinion

The issue is how to make the top stars viable and how to attract the fans to cover their payments....that's the hard part but the part that has to be done....dumbing the sport down to virtual amateur level is the easy option but will attract very few fans , raising very little revenue whilst still having the same staging costs for a meeting, rent etc

[thebaron]

What's the answer though ?

 

The fixture list is far too disjointed but there's only 8 teams in the Elite.....you can't get a great fixture list out of that many teams , especially when you have so many international events and leagues that you can't clash with....it's not like the old days with more teams and far less international events and other leagues to consider.

 

Teams are too packed with guests but there doesn't seem to be enough riders to go around and you've got teams full of international riders or doubling up riders.....promoters have already said double up riders save money so I can't see that changing next season so it stands to reason that international riders, double up riders plus the the normal injuries mean that teams are reliant on too many guests....I have no problem with a guest for top riders but having 4 or 5 loses any identity a team has......but how does that change ?

 

Also, from experience , once a fan stops attending then it's very difficult to get them back.....I think most fans retain a fondness for following the sport but just not in person......too many tracks have folded and those fans have been lost, plus many have stopped for the reasons in the opening post, plus there are just so many more things on offer these days to stop people attending in person.

 

I really don't know what the answers are though

I can answer the guest problem.

 

The two league system makes no sense as in effect the teams in each league are staffed by the same pool of riders which is not infinite.

 

At this moment in time British Speedway is not best served by two leagues. So from where we are amalgamation and regionalisation is the key. Thereby reducing travel; costs all round.

 

By creating a two region N/W and S/E Conference this partially solves your guest rider issue; as teams in the N/W Conference can only utilise a guest from the S/E Conference and vice versa.

 

I read Philip Risings article and he is getting down the same avenues as myself. I presented a viable plan on these forums last year and both my promoter and Speedway Star have the plan. I see in this weeks Star that BSPA Chair Alex Harkness is already preparing us not to expect revolution at the BSPA Ann Conference but I would caution him to at least show us some evolution and embrace a reform of the leagues.

 

We are moving in difficult times; so you have to take steps to keep the sport functioning properly until we have better times. I fiercely contend that merger and regionalisation will allow us a firmer base from which to go forward.

 

The guest rider farce is in part addressed by the regional league structure. I can go on ....

[Hawk127]

Possibly one answer could be to scrap the current league set up with seven man teams and instead have a squad of riders represent a local team or a team of sponsors in a season of individual meetings held at every track. The season is made up of qualifying rounds and then your have a series of different matches that constitute a sort of play offs. The top scoring individuals have a one off final. Then you have the top two from each squad race for a pairs championship and then the top four in a 4TT and then a final team match of seven riders made up of the seasons top scorers from the squad (no points limit). Four teams contest. This format may be attractive to the top riders who have now turned their back on the British league. You could operate a similar arrangement using pl and nl rriders. It would need some working out but might just reinvigorate the support with a chance of seeing top riders with those coimg through the ranks getting the chance to race against some of the euro and gp stars. No longer rr or guests just sixteen riders in each meeting racing for points and season ending glory. Alongside this they could introduce other classes such as 250 and 125.

 

Just ideas and thoughts and ready to be shot down in flames but it might work and could attract more sponsorship with sponsors renting tracks from clubs for meetings.

[topsoil]

 

But that is not the issue, as I have said repeatedly.

 

Anyone with an ounce of advertising nous could fill a stadium once, even just using the free entry route. The thing is once they are in they must have an evening that tempts them to come back at the usual cost, be that a fiver, tenner or whatever. Lakeside had 5000 for the free entry, lots were of course existing fans, but they are now back to one man and a dog. Worse still you will never get another chance with any of those that came and thought it was crap, people may come once based on what you tell them but show them a poor product and you will never get another chance.

 

If the product is hemorrhaging existing customers, customers who have been with you for decades with an obvious affinity for the sport but no longer want to go what chance of keeping the casual observer.

 

Make it an evening worth watching, not just the racing, thats only a small part of it, the whole package needs to be vibrant. Then on a SKY night let people in for a fiver maybe and pack the place. Make sure everyone there has a good night, it will look like a good night to the TV viewers and they may be tempted along.

 

At the moment if you happen to channel hop to the speedway on SKY it just screams "nothing to see here, keep moving"

You are right in a lot of ways. As i have posted on here before I have been at football, rugby league, rugby union and T20 cricket matches over the summer. As for the actual sport, I wouldn't say speedway is inferior to any of these, but what separated these events from speedway was that all of these events gave the fan a full programme of entertainment. For example the rugby league event had mini rugby, fans running in zorba balls, music through good speaker systems, the T20 cricket had kids crashing into each other in bumper balls, quizzes, mascots throwing T-shirts into the crowd. Speedway is perfectly made for short bursts of entertainment between heats, tractor grading and intervals. It doesn't have to be expensive, Glasgow have kids running races against the mascot. I honestly don't think new fans to the sport will be worried about guests, rider replacement, tactical rides. Give them four riders in a race, with decent entertainment between and you will keep them happy. Fail to keep fans entertained and the sport is doomed.

I can answer the guest problem.

 

The two league system makes no sense as in effect the teams in each league are staffed by the same pool of riders which is not infinite.

 

At this moment in time British Speedway is not best served by two leagues. So from where we are amalgamation and regionalisation is the key. Thereby reducing travel; costs all round.

 

By creating a two region N/W and S/E Conference this partially solves your guest rider issue; as teams in the N/W Conference can only utilise a guest from the S/E Conference and vice versa.

 

I read Philip Risings article and he is getting down the same avenues as myself. I presented a viable plan on these forums last year and both my promoter and Speedway Star have the plan. I see in this weeks Star that BSPA Chair Alex Harkness is already preparing us not to expect revolution at the BSPA Ann Conference but I would caution him to at least show us some evolution and embrace a reform of the leagues.

 

We are moving in difficult times; so you have to take steps to keep the sport functioning properly until we have better times. I fiercely contend that merger and regionalisation will allow us a firmer base from which to go forward.

 

The guest rider farce is in part addressed by the regional league structure. I can go on ....

Interesting that a while ago a total outsider to the sport, apologies I cannot remember his name, said in the Speedway Star that the sport will never change as long as promoters run it themselves, as all they are concerned about is looking after their own needs and not for the good of the sport. Why would the BSPA chairman want to change anything while his team is successful?

[Fromafar]

You are right in a lot of ways. As i have posted on here before I have been at football, rugby league, rugby union and T20 cricket matches over the summer. As for the actual sport, I wouldn't say speedway is inferior to any of these, but what separated these events from speedway was that all of these events gave the fan a full programme of entertainment. For example the rugby league event had mini rugby, fans running in zorba balls, music through good speaker systems, the T20 cricket had kids crashing into each other in bumper balls, quizzes, mascots throwing T-shirts into the crowd. Speedway is perfectly made for short bursts of entertainment between heats, tractor grading and intervals. It doesn't have to be expensive, Glasgow have kids running races against the mascot. I honestly don't think new fans to the sport will be worried about guests, rider replacement, tactical rides. Give them four riders in a race, with decent entertainment between and you will keep them happy. Fail to keep fans entertained and the sport is doomed.

Interesting that a while ago a total outsider to the sport, apologies I cannot remember his name, said in the Speedway Star that the sport will never change as long as promoters run it themselves, as all they are concerned about is looking after their own needs and not for the good of the sport. Why would the BSPA chairman want to change anything while his team is successful?

 

As long as his club fans keep supplying money to cover their losses he won't.(commendable of them by the way,but not really helping the sport in general)

[Humphrey Appleby]

Interesting that a while ago a total outsider to the sport, apologies I cannot remember his name, said in the Speedway Star that the sport will never change as long as promoters run it themselves, as all they are concerned about is looking after their own needs and not for the good of the sport. Why would the BSPA chairman want to change anything while his team is successful?

 

The promoters ultimately have to control the sport as they're the ones who put the money in and take the financial risks. You can't have a third party telling you what to do without any comeback when it's not their money on the line.

 

What's needed is for promoters to remove themselves from the day-to-day decision making and vest that authority in a Commissioner (or maybe a three person Commission) with no links to any track. The promoters appoint the Commissioner(s) for a given period, define the general terms of reference and operating parameters, but then leave the actual guidance and administration of the sport to the Commission(er). If the promoters don't like what the Commissioner(s) are doing at the end of their term of their office, then they can replace them.

 

The Commission(er) should also provide guidance as to the structure of the sport, consider rider development issues, and recommend appropriate and constructive team building rules/restrictions. I'm not sure it has to be a full-time position (although it would be better if it was), but would need to be remunerated in some way so that you attract some half decent talent.

[daveallan81]

But the fan who has stopped going because of the tr does so because its "unfair." But went for 30 years with the ts rule, which was used more often and with greater advantage to the losing team,meaning it altered far more results.

I suspect orions point is that if someone is using such irrational logic, it is hard to argue that promoters take that view seriously.

 

Figures from all EL & PL matches (excluding play-offs) for 2014 and up to Wednesday 19th August 2015. These stats are taken from the SCB scorecards and I've used two seasons to try and get as big a sample base as possible.

 

Total matches: 542

Total TR rides taken: 341 (62.92% of all matches had at least one TR)

Total resulting in a win: 13 (3.81%)

Total resulting in defeat: 328 (96.19%)

 

Interesting note: of the 13 turnarounds, 11 saw the TR result in an 8-1, one required two bites at the cherry (4-4 & 8-1) and the other was a 7-2. No match using a TR ended in a draw. Of the 13 wins, 6 went for the home side, 7 away.

 

Now, 1978 because I've got the figures to hand. Note that TS rides taken by reserves are NOT included, only rides by a member of the 1-5 have been counted. It's not always possible to pinpoint a reserve taking a TS so best to exclude them for a bit more accuracy.

 

Total matches: 722

Total TS rides taken: 568 (78.67% of all matches had at least one TS)

Total resulting in a win: 20 (3.52%)

Total resulting in a draw: 16 (2.82%)

Total resulting in defeat: 532 (93.66%)

 

Interesting note: only 2 matches saw both teams utilise TS, on both occasions the home team went first, and later ran out winners. Those matches are not included in the above figures. Of the 20 wins, 8 went for the home team and 12 away.

 

1978 saw only 2 instances of a team winning from more than 9 down, although Milton Keynes managed that feat twice in one match at Edinburgh - 10 down at first TS in heat 5, and 12 down for the second in heat 9. They won 40-37. Twelve came from the statutory 6 down, two from seven behind and four from eight.

 

Biggest deficit overhauled recently is 15, Redcar trailed after heat 5 but won 47-45. 1 came from 14 down, 3 from 12 (Coventry twice came from 12 down at Poole to win 48-47), 2 from 11 and 6 from 10.

 

I'm not sure how to interpret these figures, there are so many differences between the two eras' rules. They would suggest that if you don't return at least a 7-2 you won't win these days. They would also suggest that if you have to resort to a tactical change in either era then your chances of winning are slim. The TS was more readily available yet less successful in securing a win. And so on.

 

I'm willing to wager that these figures are a lot closer together than most thought they would be. Today you have a 1 in 28.4 chance of winning by using the TR, in 1978 your chances of picking up all the points were 1 in 27.6. But different rules. Different everything really.

 

Bottom line is there ain't much between the two and if you happen to fall the requisite number of points behind that enables you to use whichever facility, the chances are you're going to lose anyway.

[topsoil]

 

The promoters ultimately have to control the sport as they're the ones who put the money in and take the financial risks. You can't have a third party telling you what to do without any comeback when it's not their money on the line.

 

What's needed is for promoters to remove themselves from the day-to-day decision making and vest that authority in a Commissioner (or maybe a three person Commission) with no links to any track. The promoters appoint the Commissioner(s) for a given period, define the general terms of reference and operating parameters, but then leave the actual guidance and administration of the sport to the Commission(er). If the promoters don't like what the Commissioner(s) are doing at the end of their term of their office, then they can replace them.

 

The Commission(er) should also provide guidance as to the structure of the sport, consider rider development issues, and recommend appropriate and constructive team building rules/restrictions. I'm not sure it has to be a full-time position (although it would be better if it was), but would need to be remunerated in some way so that you attract some half decent talent.

Exactly, this is what almost everybody has been saying for a long time, an independent person in charge.

[waiheke1]

 

Figures from all EL & PL matches (excluding play-offs) for 2014 and up to Wednesday 19th August 2015. These stats are taken from the SCB scorecards and I've used two seasons to try and get as big a sample base as possible.

 

Total matches: 542

Total TR rides taken: 341 (62.92% of all matches had at least one TR)

Total resulting in a win: 13 (3.81%)

Total resulting in defeat: 328 (96.19%)

 

Interesting note: of the 13 turnarounds, 11 saw the TR result in an 8-1, one required two bites at the cherry (4-4 & 8-1) and the other was a 7-2. No match using a TR ended in a draw. Of the 13 wins, 6 went for the home side, 7 away.

 

Now, 1978 because I've got the figures to hand. Note that TS rides taken by reserves are NOT included, only rides by a member of the 1-5 have been counted. It's not always possible to pinpoint a reserve taking a TS so best to exclude them for a bit more accuracy.

 

Total matches: 722

Total TS rides taken: 568 (78.67% of all matches had at least one TS)

Total resulting in a win: 20 (3.52%)

Total resulting in a draw: 16 (2.82%)

Total resulting in defeat: 532 (93.66%)

 

Interesting note: only 2 matches saw both teams utilise TS, on both occasions the home team went first, and later ran out winners. Those matches are not included in the above figures. Of the 20 wins, 8 went for the home team and 12 away.

 

1978 saw only 2 instances of a team winning from more than 9 down, although Milton Keynes managed that feat twice in one match at Edinburgh - 10 down at first TS in heat 5, and 12 down for the second in heat 9. They won 40-37. Twelve came from the statutory 6 down, two from seven behind and four from eight.

 

Biggest deficit overhauled recently is 15, Redcar trailed after heat 5 but won 47-45. 1 came from 14 down, 3 from 12 (Coventry twice came from 12 down at Poole to win 48-47), 2 from 11 and 6 from 10.

 

I'm not sure how to interpret these figures, there are so many differences between the two eras' rules. They would suggest that if you don't return at least a 7-2 you won't win these days. They would also suggest that if you have to resort to a tactical change in either era then your chances of winning are slim. The TS was more readily available yet less successful in securing a win. And so on.

 

I'm willing to wager that these figures are a lot closer together than most thought they would be. Today you have a 1 in 28.4 chance of winning by using the TR, in 1978 your chances of picking up all the points were 1 in 27.6. But different rules. Different everything really.

 

Bottom line is there ain't much between the two and if you happen to fall the requisite number of points behind that enables you to use whichever facility, the chances are you're going to lose anyway.

Very interesting save, and closer than I thought.

Would be interesting to know what the average point swing gained by using each method is, though obviously for the old ts swing can only be estimated. Similarly would be interesting in how many meetings where a side win after using a ts/tr the result was changed by the use of it (I.e. winning margin lower than swing gained)

And final thought is what is the average margin of victory in all meetings? I suspect el sides are more closely matched now than in the past (top sides weaker and bottom sides stronger) and wonder if that is why the old ts didn't result in more result swings

Thanks for the analysis daveallan

[Grand Central]

Great bit of analysis there.

 

I think the crucial point is that folk getting their knickers in a twist about 'fairness' can be allowed to do so. On their own.

And the rest of the Speedway world can fret not a jot.

 

In ninety odd per cent of matches the tac sub worked at giving tactical interest among the audience, probably tightening the match up for extra excitement, but at the end of the day the leading team still won.

But there was just a glimmer of hope offered to the trailing side mid match and just a little extra tension for the leaders.

Fine, just what we want. Brilliant.

 

The data shows that on practice the TR performs rather similarly.

 

So the only question should be which one to use.

 

I would prefer the old tac sub, exactly as was.

But I fully understand that the TR is far cheaper for the promoters, so they will choose that one.

 

Only word of caution to them is that in the real world the subjective 'feel' by many punters.

Right or wrong.

Is that doubling points just looks stupid and 'circus like.

It is worth them remembering that.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Grand Central

[mdmc82]

Taken from speedway star twitter

 

@speedwaystarmag: After returning from his ban, @DuzersTeam bids to ride "as much as possible." Could an Elite League team make a move? http://t.co/8JBDBEshkV

 

What would his average be though if he decided to ride in the EL?

[Shale Searcher]

Taken from speedway star twitter

 

@speedwaystarmag: After returning from his ban, @DuzersTeam bids to ride "as much as possible." Could an Elite League team make a move? http://t.co/8JBDBEshkV

 

What would his average be though if he decided to ride in the EL?

Mr Dudek I presume.......?

[waiheke1]

So twk - are you reconsidering your decision not to attend due to the tr. As daveallan has demonstrated that it impacts on the result of under 4% of matches. So if you attended every home match for a season, chances are u would see 0 or 1 match where the winning team was assisted by a tr ride.

[BWitcher]

Interesting data, but of course very flawed as under a completely different format (13 heats).

 

It would be interesting to see a comparison with the 15 heat formula as that's when the 'top heavy' sides were able to take the biggest advantage.

 

Also as waiheke says, the strength of the teams would play a big part... plus the number.. there were 19 teams in the league in 1978.

Edited August 21, 2015 by BWitcher