Speedway Star Item

[New Science]

I really do wish that the arguments here over tactical rides and old tac subs could be made with more genuine understanding of each side.

 

The TRUTH is that mathematically the old tac sub method was more 'unfair' than the newer tactical ride.

BUT that to most people it never actually 'felt' like that.

 

The tactical ride was introduced solely for cost cutting. Never to improve fairness.

It achieved that aim very well.

But to many it just seems a 'bad' rule.

 

I have no idea whether such tactical rules have EVER had a dramatic effect on attendances.

But, from memory, I never remember anyone complaining in the 'olden days' about the unfairness of tac subs (TWK excepted, no doubt).

But I do remember a great detail of 'tactical talk' on the terraces on when or how they would be used.

They may have been very unfair but they had the double whammy of tightening matches up and giving an extra dimention to the contest.

 

Truth is I personally do not care one jot about the unfairness. I really liked tac subs.

And I equally really lament their loss.

 

Fairness, cost cutting etc are piffle to me.

BUT I do hate the double point tactical ride.

And the Joker in the SWC.

 

Its just how I feel

The biggest weakness in the tactical substitute was a team being 10 points down before heat 13,then being able to track the same 2 big hitters in heat 13,14 and 15. Three 5-1's later and the match is won,it made a mockery of team speedway .Have seen Ermolenko / Correy and Hamil /Hancock do this more than once in the past..Got no probably returning to tac sub but not under its former guise being used 6 points adrift ,available in heats 5-14.Maybe a tinker with this would work and appease everybody.

[Grand Central]

The biggest weakness in the tactical substitute was a team being 10 points down before heat 13,then being able to track the same 2 big hitters in heat 13,14 and 15. Three 5-1's later and the match is won,it made a mockery of team speedway .Have seen Ermolenko / Correy and Hamil /Hancock do this more than once in the past..Got no probably returning to tac sub but not under its former guise being used 6 points adrift ,available in heats 5-14.Maybe a tinker with this would work and appease everybody.

 

No it wouldn't appease everybody at all.

As it would increase costs again.

And that is the only reason it was removed.

 

That is why no sane promoter would ever return to it now.

With or without tinkering.

[BWitcher]

 

 

The bloody Tactical Ride drove me away from Speedway

 

I don't care how many times you claim it, it didn't.

 

You were posting on this forum whinging about the sport for quite some time AFTER the tactical ride had been introduced and whilst you were STILL attending.

 

It's revisionist history for you to suggest that it was the Tactical Ride that stopped you going. Something you like to throw out to justify your position.. however I submit to you that it was a lot more than just the tactical ride, it may have formed a part of the reason, but please be honest, it was far from the sole reason was it?

Edited August 12, 2015 by BWitcher

[moxey63]

There are two arguments. Do you want to appeal to new fans, which means the sport must be organised better, or do we want to appease those missing fans and invite them back, which means stop fiddling about with the rules etc and be thankful for what you've got? By that, I mean the loyal, every weekers.

 

New fans won't bother about rules the first night they attend, it is how the night goes that will decide their plans for the week after. How many old-ups, how many times The Final Countdown is played...

 

Most of us didn't know what speedway was when we first attended, and it was a bigger sport then, and we got into the rules because we went a second and third time. We were introduced by a friend etc.

 

In this first world, want-it-now attitude, I can't see many new youngsters today being fans of tomorrow. So I suggest,bring back 13 heats, the old tac sub, stop having Joe, Fred and Mike riding for every side in the league, and then us oldstagers will stay interested and bring some young uns along, keep the family tree going.

 

Other than that, speedway can only hope life expectancy increases for its remaining support. And, judging by some of the folk I see on my TV during the SKY nights, many aren't bothering to renew their 5-year diary.

Edited August 12, 2015 by moxey63

[The White Knight]

Totally agree with every single word of this post.

 

 

I really do wish that the arguments here over tactical rides and old tac subs could be made with more genuine understanding of each side.

 

The TRUTH is that mathematically the old tac sub method was more 'unfair' than the newer tactical ride.

BUT that to most people it never actually 'felt' like that.

 

The tactical ride was introduced solely for cost cutting. Never to improve fairness.

It achieved that aim very well.

But to many it just seems a 'bad' rule.

 

I have no idea whether such tactical rules have EVER had a dramatic effect on attendances.

But, from memory, I never remember anyone complaining in the 'olden days' about the unfairness of tac subs (TWK excepted, no doubt).

But I do remember a great detail of 'tactical talk' on the terraces on when or how they would be used.

They may have been very unfair but they had the double whammy of tightening matches up and giving an extra dimention to the contest.

 

Truth is I personally do not care one jot about the unfairness. I really liked tac subs.

And I equally really lament their loss.

 

Fairness, cost cutting etc are piffle to me.

BUT I do hate the double point tactical ride.

And the Joker in the SWC.

 

Its just how I feel

If you are referring to my previous Post - I don't like being called a liar by a Poster who does not know me. orion has called me a liar two or three times now. I only responded to his somewhat pathetic attempts to read my character on this Forum.

 

 

I don't care how many times you claim it, it didn't.

 

You were posting on this forum whinging about the sport for quite some time AFTER the tactical ride had been introduced and whilst you were STILL attending.

 

It's revisionist history for you to suggest that it was the Tactical Ride that stopped you going. Something you like to throw out to justify your position.. however I submit to you that it was a lot more than just the tactical ride, it may have formed a part of the reason, but please be honest, it was far from the sole reason was it?

That is very true BW - I was.

 

I put up with it as long as I could and then walked away. I give you credit for having more intelligence than the Poster who called me a liar. But I assure you, in all honesty, that the Tactical Ride is what finished me going to the Speedway.

 

You can ask anyone who stood around me at Brough Park, a number whom Post on this Forum. They know the Tactical Ride got to me. They know that is why I don't/won't attend. They know that the Tactical Ride is the sole reason for my none attendance.

 

Sure there are lots of other things I don't like in Speedway - but crucially - none of them have influenced my decision.

 

I have done my best to try to explain all of this to you, as honestly as I can, and possibly to others who don't understand my reasoning.

 

I hope that you will respect that.

[Alan_Jones]

Len Silver used to complain about them a lot. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he came up with the Tactical Ride rule.

He did.

[Tsunami]

 

 

If you are referring to my previous Post - I don't like being called a liar by a Poster who does not know me. orion has called me a liar two or three times now. I only responded to his somewhat pathetic attempts to read my character on this Forum.

 

That is very true BW - I was.

 

I put up with it as long as I could and then walked away. I give you credit for having more intelligence than the Poster who called me a liar. But I assure you, in all honesty, that the Tactical Ride is what finished me going to the Speedway.

 

You can ask anyone who stood around me at Brough Park, a number whom Post on this Forum. They know the Tactical Ride got to me. They know that is why I don't/won't attend. They know that the Tactical Ride is the sole reason for my none attendance.

 

Sure there are lots of other things I don't like in Speedway - but crucially - none of them have influenced my decision.

 

I have done my best to try to explain all of this to you, as honestly as I can, and possibly to others who don't understand my reasoning.

 

I hope that you will respect that.

 

You must be the only person who thinks a rule is bigger that the spectacle of speedway racing. It sounds like a defining point when you started to fall out with speedway, and had had enough.

For that rule to be bigger that the sport you alledge you loved, says more about you Ian than the sport generally. No normal fan goes to speedway to watch rules, the spectacle/product is still 4 riders racing around a track four times, and always will be till you grow tired with it. Like you have.

He did.

 

Seconded by Ronnie Russell and I voted against it, despite sitting next to Len.

[ouch]

Old system

Team A scores 46 out of 75 available to them = 61% Winner

Team B score 44 out of 75available to them = 59% Loser

 

Joker system

Team A score 46 out of 75 available to them = 61% Loser

Team B score 47 out of 78 available to them = 60% Winner

[Vincent Blachshadow]

 

You must be the only person who thinks a rule is bigger that the spectacle of speedway racing. It sounds like a defining point when you started to fall out with speedway, and had had enough.

For that rule to be bigger that the sport you alledge you loved, says more about you Ian than the sport generally. No normal fan goes to speedway to watch rules, the spectacle/product is still 4 riders racing around a track four times, and always will be till you grow tired with it. Like you have.

 

Seconded by Ronnie Russell and I voted against it, despite sitting next to Len.

 

And that typifies the attitude of those 'running' the sport. A man knows whether or not he loved the sport, there's no allegation involved. If he walks away from something he loved because of some of the crazy rules that shows the depth of his feeling for the particular rule/s not that he didn't love the sport in the first place.

 

And he isn't the only one, either. I know a couple who've packed up going after following the sport for forty years because of the combination of daft rules and unfair and inconsistent administration. But, then again, after following the sport world-wide, making a 180 mile return trip just for home matches for twenty years, attending their local tracks as well as following a particular team, sponsoring riders now and again they were told, on this forum, that they hadn't been speedway supporters at all!

Edited August 13, 2015 by Vincent Blackshadow

[orion]

 

And that typifies the attitude of those 'running' the sport. A man knows whether or not he loved the sport, there's no allegation involved. If he walks away from something he loved because of some of the crazy rules that shows the depth of his feeling for the particular rule/s not that he didn't love the sport in the first place.

 

 

Not really it just typifies another old fan who just wants the rules to be the same when he went ...the tac sub is just as Mickey mouse as the Double point rule but because the speedway was good no one cared ...to be fair I don't blame the people who run the sports attitude to people who only want to go back in time and moan anything new .

[The White Knight]

Not really it just typifies another old fan who just wants the rules to be the same when he went ...the tac sub is just as Mickey mouse as the Double point rule but because the speedway was good no one cared ...to be fair I don't blame the people who run the sports attitude to people who only want to go back in time and moan anything new .

orion - I am getting fed up with arguing with you. "When he went" what the hell are you talking about in that context. I went for years watching the bloody Tactical Ride until I just couldn't stand it any more.

 

You seem intent on pushing this. I don't know why? You haven't a clue what you are talking about.

 

That's my last Post on this matter - unless of course you come up with something even more stupid - which is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

[orion]

orion - I am getting fed up with arguing with you. "When he went" what the hell are you talking about in that context. I went for years watching the bloody Tactical Ride until I just couldn't stand it any more.

 

You seem intent on pushing this. I don't know why? You haven't a clue what you are talking about.

 

That's my last Post on this matter - unless of course you come up with something even more stupid - which is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

if only we had a pound for every time you come out with the child like this is my last post on the matter only to start posting again a couple of reply's later we expect the same here ...i put that in the same bracket as i am taking my ball home or i am not going to speedway anymore .

 

The Bottom line is your just another old fan who hates anything modern about the sport ..plays offs, sky ,double points gp's it just so predictable ..why the way forward is the Golden Helmet ,Second Halfs one off World off Finals etc etc hence why no one who runs the sport takes any notice .

[bigcatdiary]

He did.

I rather suspect Humphrey already knew that.

[The White Knight]

orion - I am getting fed up with arguing with you. "When he went" what the hell are you talking about in that context. I went for years watching the bloody Tactical Ride until I just couldn't stand it any more.

 

You seem intent on pushing this. I don't know why? You haven't a clue what you are talking about.

 

That's my last Post on this matter - unless of course you come up with something even more stupid - which is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

 

 

if only we had a pound for every time you come out with the child like this is my last post on the matter only to start posting again a couple of reply's later we expect the same here ...i put that in the same bracket as i am taking my ball home or i am not going to speedway anymore .

 

The Bottom line is your just another old fan who hates anything modern about the sport ..plays offs, sky ,double points gp's it just so predictable ..why the way forward is the Golden Helmet ,Second Halfs one off World off Finals etc etc hence why no one who runs the sport takes any notice .

Obviously you can't read either.

 

See the highlighted bit. Read it and digest.

 

.............Oh - and yes you did Post something even more stupid. Allowing me to reply.

 

Not very bright are you.

[orion]

Lol it only took two posts another pound in the jar .

Edited August 13, 2015 by orion

[The White Knight]

Lol it only took two posts another pound in the jar .

As I said earlier - an easy way out.

[waiheke1]

the thing is though tWK is that you've said the reason you don't like the tactical ride is that it's unfair/fiddling etc

Yet (and GC put it very well imho), despite the fact that most of us dislike the TR, it is a lot fairer than its predecessor the tac sub.

It's therefore hard for us to comprehend that you would quit the sport because of a rule, that is less bad (from the perspective of fairness, which you've said repeatedly is your sole concern) than one you tolerated for 20+ years previously.

 

To me, it seems your like a wife who leaves her husband becuase he leaves the toilet seat up. Yes, it may well be that it genuinely annoys her. And she may even fool herself that that's the reason she's leaving. But in actual fact, while that may be the "last straw", if she was still i love, and everything else was fine, she'd be able to tolerate the toilet seat thing.

 

I think you're that wife TWK, the toilet seat (TR) was the last straw for you, but you fell out of love some time ago.

[The White Knight]

the thing is though tWK is that you've said the reason you don't like the tactical ride is that it's unfair/fiddling etc

Yet (and GC put it very well imho), despite the fact that most of us dislike the TR, it is a lot fairer than its predecessor the tac sub.

It's therefore hard for us to comprehend that you would quit the sport because of a rule, that is less bad (from the perspective of fairness, which you've said repeatedly is your sole concern) than one you tolerated for 20+ years previously.

 

To me, it seems your like a wife who leaves her husband becuase he leaves the toilet seat up. Yes, it may well be that it genuinely annoys her. And she may even fool herself that that's the reason she's leaving. But in actual fact, while that may be the "last straw", if she was still i love, and everything else was fine, she'd be able to tolerate the toilet seat thing.

 

I think you're that wife TWK, the toilet seat (TR) was the last straw for you, but you fell out of love some time ago.

More people psychoanalyzing me - how quaint.

 

Come on whka1 - I think I know myself, my views, feelings and everything else rather better than you.

 

Just because you don't want (for some reason?) my reason for leaving the Sport to be true - you try to tell me how I feel.

 

For the record - YOU ARE WRONG!!

[ruffdiamond]

the thing is though tWK is that you've said the reason you don't like the tactical ride is that it's unfair/fiddling etcYet (and GC put it very well imho), despite the fact that most of us dislike the TR, it is a lot fairer than its predecessor the tac sub.It's therefore hard for us to comprehend that you would quit the sport because of a rule, that is less bad (from the perspective of fairness, which you've said repeatedly is your sole concern) than one you tolerated for 20+ years previously. To me, it seems your like a wife who leaves her husband becuase he leaves the toilet seat up. Yes, it may well be that it genuinely annoys her. And she may even fool herself that that's the reason she's leaving. But in actual fact, while that may be the "last straw", if she was still i love, and everything else was fine, she'd be able to tolerate the toilet seat thing. I think you're that wife TWK, the toilet seat (TR) was the last straw for you, but you fell out of love some time ago.

 

What about those buggers who keep leaving the toilet seat down ???

[The White Knight]

What about those buggers who keep leaving the toilet seat down ???

I know - isn't it a pain. :lol: