Trees Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 If you're going to have half of every team riding in more than one league, common sense would suggest you arrange for the leagues to be run on different nights? I'm hopeful that the BEL promoters are looking at 2 nights a week but of course that hasn't happened yet! And if it happens at all it won't be an easy transition ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 If you are trying to sell speedway to a non fan then they surely wouldn't have a clue about guests and doubling up riders...why would they ?.....it's only people who actually go that are aware of those issues so they are only an issue once people are actually attracted through the turnstiles in the first place and that seems to be the really hard part. Most people when I mention speedway to, and I go back to the 70's here as well, just say oh it's the first rider out of the start that always wins isn't it ........that sums up most people's initial impression of speedway. The likelihood of somebody passing by the gates of a speedway venue just as a meeting is about to start and deciding, on the spur of the moment, to have a look-see for the first time is somewhat remote so, In the modern age, most folk, when thinking of going to something new will have a look on the net and read something about it. It wouldn't take very long to work out, from looking at the BSPA site, that there's something unusual about the make-up of teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 If you are trying to sell speedway to a non fan then they surely wouldn't have a clue about guests and doubling up riders...why would they ?.....it's only people who actually go that are aware of those issues so they are only an issue once people are actually attracted through the turnstiles in the first place and that seems to be the really hard part. Most people when I mention speedway to, and I go back to the 70's here as well, just say oh it's the first rider out of the start that always wins isn't it ........that sums up most people's initial impression of speedway. But of course not every race, every meeting is first out of the gate wins ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) The lack of 'one night' speedway is one of the main reasons 'guests' exist...If all the EL matches took place on the same night then riders in the EL couldnt ride for anyone but their own team..Look at Poland on a Sunday and Sweden on a Tuesday....However just because you CAN do it, shouldnt mean you do....No one can really take seriously a sport that is only one step below the WWE in relation to contriving the outcome of matches....Maybe watching any four riders racing four laps in the name of 'sports entertainment' rather than it masquerading as a professional team sport is the answer?In fact, thinking out loud, you could have someone like Jason Garrity shouting into the camera before a race "I'm mad for it me!", "Get outta my way Noddy coz I'm comin' through!!!"....Could catch on.... Edited August 3, 2015 by mikebv 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arson fire Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) That maybe so ..the trouble we have is that a lot moaning but no one has come up with a Alternative solution.we are fans, its for the powers that be to start filling in the hole, not keep digging it surely. 5 man teams is the next thing no doubt. Edited August 2, 2015 by Arson fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 It may not be possible at some stadiums because of their local staffing arrangements even if there are vacant nights at the venues. How would you overcome that? You start with a statement of intent. EL on Monday, Wednesday and Thursday. PL on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. If even half the clubs who currently ride on an "off night" are able to move, this would significantly reduce the number of riders missing due to clashes. Then over time, as clubs re-negotiate their lease agreements with their landlords, they know which night(s) they should be aiming at. It's not rocket science, but it take a genuine desire from promoters to reduce riders missing meetings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 Most speedway devotees (me included) would trot that line out but it does show why it's difficult to sell the sport to newbies, specially if they're indoctrinated into the 'one man - one team' mindset. Can't u sell the sport from a rider's point of view, racing inches apart, no brakes, no gears, injuries, riding hurt, show them pics of injuries etc etc They make it look easy, it's not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvm Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 If you're going to have half of every team riding in more than one league, common sense would suggest you arrange for the leagues to be run on different nights? How would you arrange that when most promotions ae only tenants at stadiums which have other uses? The amount of money that has, come into and out of, the sport in the past 80+ years, most tracks should be in a position whereby they own their own stadiums. At times when the sport was booming more should have been done to put the sport in a better financial position. A small levy, put into a building fund, would have meant the BSPA(or some similar body) would have been the owners of many former tracks. Whether it was lack of foresight, or just pure greed on the part of previous generations of promoters, I'll leave for others to decide. But after 80+ years, there really should be more stand alone tracks. The sport has been badly let down by previous generations of promoters. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) Can't u sell the sport from a rider's point of view, racing inches apart, no brakes, no gears, injuries, riding hurt, show them pics of injuries etc etc They make it look easy, it's not! Folk already know the bit you mention if they're the slightest bit interested - most likely, they'd have watched some on the telly. I've sold the sport often enough, mainly in the past when the only way to find out was to go. That's no longer the case with televised meetings and the interweb. Edited August 2, 2015 by Vincent Blackshadow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 At least all eight Elite League tracks had a home meeting last week... how often does that happen? The fact that its's notable that all EL tracks ran a meeting in the same week in the height of summer shows what a desperate situation we are in. Weekly speedway, 30 meetings a year. How did we ever manage? Isn't 'the future' wonderful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 At the moment 4 of the 8 EL clubs ride on a day no PL club rides - Monday's and Wednesday. So only 50% of the EL has to deal with home clashes. As I have said before, I have some software that'll avoid clashes other than on bank holidays and potentially late in the season with re-arrangements. That said, I'm not totally sure getting rid of clashing riders will fix things. I bet 70% of the crowd haven't got a clue who is riding or meant to be riding etc. And the other thing, you get fans moan, "the EL is 8 teams, not enough variety" - yet now we have fans moaning about the variety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screm Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 If any promoters are wondering why the hardcore fans are getting fed up and they are not attracting new people to the sport, then the below summary of last night's action might help. At Leicester, the home team team contained Thomas Jorgensen who rides for Berwick as a guest for Sam Masters who also rides for Edinburgh, James Sarjeant of Coventry and Glasgow as a guest for Josh Auty who also rides for Scunthorpe and Dan Greenwood of Coventry Storm as a guest for Simon Lambert who also rides for Peterborough. On the other side, Hand Andersen of Coventry guests for Andreas Jonsson, Chris Harris of Coventry guests for Kim Nilsson, Max Fricke of Belle Vue guests for Mikkel Bech and Richard Hall of Berwick guests for Ashley Birks who also rides for Sheffield. Lakeside's three non guests are Edward Kennett who also rides for Rye House, Richard Lawson who also rides for Glasgow and Adam Ellis who also rides for Birmingham. Plymouth feature a seven man side, although number one Kyle Newman also rides for Poole. Their opponents Somerset have rider replacement for Charles Wright who also rides for Swindon and also line-up with Josh Grajczonek who also rides for Belle Vue and Paul Starke who also rides for Poole. Rye House take on Newcastle without their number one Edward Kennett who is riding for Lakeside and replace him with Robert Lambert who rides for King's Lynn, or is it Peterborough? Newcastle operate rider replacement for Christian Henry who is injured and have Rafal Konopka of Peterborough and Connor Mountain of Mildenhall guesting for Simon Nielsen and Lewis Rose who was injured riding for his other team, Swindon. A full strength Workington team includes Ricky Wells who also rides for Wolverhampton, Kyle Howarth who - until a few weeks ago - also rode for Swindon and Matt Williamson who also rides for Cradley Heath. They take on Sheffield who have had a guest all season for the injured Simon Stead and usually borrow riders from their main rivals for the play-offs, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Somerset or Ipswich. Last night it was Danny King of the Witches, but he also rides for Coventry. There is rider replacement for Jason Garrity, who also rides for Coventry and was injured riding for them, with Josh Bastes, also of Wolverhampton and briefly of Birmingham, lining up at reserve. The farce continues in the cup match at Edinburgh where the Monarchs use rider replacement for the injured Sam Masters - the same Sam Masters that Leicester are using a guest for. They also include Craig Cook, also of Belle Vue, Max Clegg, also of Cradley Heath and Robert Branford who also rides for the Rye House Raiders. The Bears have Aaron Summers of Glasgow guesting for the injured Lasse Bjerre and have rider replacement for Stuart Robson, who was injured riding for his other club, Coventry. There are also guests at reserve where Liam Carr of Buxton and Rob Shuttleworth of Coventry Storm replace the injured Jan Graversen and Adam Roynon who was hurt whilst guesting for Arena-Essex the other day. The night is concluded by the relative normality of the National League Cup fixture between Eastbourne and Kent, although the Eagles have rider replacement for Georgie Wood and Martin Knuckey of Coventry Storm guests for Richard Andrews. Poor old Niall Strudwick, the Eagles number 8, can't get a ride despite his team being 14 points up from the away leg. Kent, meanwhile, are the only team of the 12 in action tonight to put out a full seven where none of the side are doubling up or doubling down. However, this would have been different a couple of days earlier had not Ben Morley lost his team place at Redcar. Is everyone enjoying their speedway? Maybe this post should be printed off and read before the start of this years AGM, where no doubt after hearing it all of speedway`s ills will be cured, just like last year, the year before, the year before that, the year before that and well you get the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebaron Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) If any promoters are wondering why the hardcore fans are getting fed up and they are not attracting new people to the sport, then the below summary of last night's action might help. At Leicester, the home team team contained Thomas Jorgensen who rides for Berwick as a guest for Sam Masters who also rides for Edinburgh, James Sarjeant of Coventry and Glasgow as a guest for Josh Auty who also rides for Scunthorpe and Dan Greenwood of Coventry Storm as a guest for Simon Lambert who also rides for Peterborough. On the other side, Hand Andersen of Coventry guests for Andreas Jonsson, Chris Harris of Coventry guests for Kim Nilsson, Max Fricke of Belle Vue guests for Mikkel Bech and Richard Hall of Berwick guests for Ashley Birks who also rides for Sheffield. Lakeside's three non guests are Edward Kennett who also rides for Rye House, Richard Lawson who also rides for Glasgow and Adam Ellis who also rides for Birmingham. Plymouth feature a seven man side, although number one Kyle Newman also rides for Poole. Their opponents Somerset have rider replacement for Charles Wright who also rides for Swindon and also line-up with Josh Grajczonek who also rides for Belle Vue and Paul Starke who also rides for Poole. Rye House take on Newcastle without their number one Edward Kennett who is riding for Lakeside and replace him with Robert Lambert who rides for King's Lynn, or is it Peterborough? Newcastle operate rider replacement for Christian Henry who is injured and have Rafal Konopka of Peterborough and Connor Mountain of Mildenhall guesting for Simon Nielsen and Lewis Rose who was injured riding for his other team, Swindon. A full strength Workington team includes Ricky Wells who also rides for Wolverhampton, Kyle Howarth who - until a few weeks ago - also rode for Swindon and Matt Williamson who also rides for Cradley Heath. They take on Sheffield who have had a guest all season for the injured Simon Stead and usually borrow riders from their main rivals for the play-offs, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Somerset or Ipswich. Last night it was Danny King of the Witches, but he also rides for Coventry. There is rider replacement for Jason Garrity, who also rides for Coventry and was injured riding for them, with Josh Bastes, also of Wolverhampton and briefly of Birmingham, lining up at reserve. The farce continues in the cup match at Edinburgh where the Monarchs use rider replacement for the injured Sam Masters - the same Sam Masters that Leicester are using a guest for. They also include Craig Cook, also of Belle Vue, Max Clegg, also of Cradley Heath and Robert Branford who also rides for the Rye House Raiders. The Bears have Aaron Summers of Glasgow guesting for the injured Lasse Bjerre and have rider replacement for Stuart Robson, who was injured riding for his other club, Coventry. There are also guests at reserve where Liam Carr of Buxton and Rob Shuttleworth of Coventry Storm replace the injured Jan Graversen and Adam Roynon who was hurt whilst guesting for Arena-Essex the other day. The night is concluded by the relative normality of the National League Cup fixture between Eastbourne and Kent, although the Eagles have rider replacement for Georgie Wood and Martin Knuckey of Coventry Storm guests for Richard Andrews. Poor old Niall Strudwick, the Eagles number 8, can't get a ride despite his team being 14 points up from the away leg. Kent, meanwhile, are the only team of the 12 in action tonight to put out a full seven where none of the side are doubling up or doubling down. However, this would have been different a couple of days earlier had not Ben Morley lost his team place at Redcar. Is everyone enjoying their speedway? Put very well as you have; it just reads dreadfully does it not, and something really has to be done about this. I have a cunning plan if people will hear me out; and part of it; is to amalgamate the two leagues and regionalise - North/West; South/East. Guests are permitted but not from within your own section so a team in the North/West can utilise a guest rider from the South/East and vice versa. I am a long advocate of the benefits of regionalisation; at this difficult time in the sport. The promoters need to come together in the interests of the sport. This does not mean that we are regionalised for ever and a day; but when the sport and its supporter base is going through hard times; it needs to draw back to its strongest position; and for me that is represented by an amalgamated regionalised format. For instance regionalisation would help with situations like we at Scunthorpe found ourselves in last Friday v Plymouth. The meeting was called off on the back of a poor forecast at 9:00am that looked a reasonable decision given the travel involved for Plymouth. But there was not a drop of rain all day; and it made the decision look a bit hasty. My point being; that if your opposition is more locally based you can make a later call and not inconvenience people as much. As I say I have a plan and I will be trying to communicate this when and where I get the chance if someone will listen. Edited August 3, 2015 by the outsider 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 Put very well as you have; it just reads dreadfully does it not, and something really has to be done about this. I have a cunning plan if people will hear me out; and part of it; is to amalgamate the two leagues and regionalise - North/West; South/East. Guests are permitted but not from within your own section so a team in the North/West can utilise a guest rider from the South/West and vice versa. I am a long advocate of the benefits of regionalisation; at this difficult time in the sport. The promoters need to come together in the interests of the sport. This does not mean that we are regionalised for ever and a day; but when the sport and its supporter base is going through hard times; it needs to draw back to its strongest position; and for me that is represented by an amalgamated regionalised format. For instance regionalisation would help with situations like we at Scunthorpe found ourselves in last Friday v Plymouth. The meeting was called off on the back of a poor forecast at 9:00am that looked a reasonable decision given the travel involved for Plymouth. But there was not a drop of rain all day; and it made the decision look a bit hasty. My point being; that if your opposition is more locally based you can make a later call and not inconvenience people as much. As I say I have a plan and I will be trying to communicate this when and where I get the chance if someone will listen. I wish you well with that. A very good response to an excellent Original Post by Tigerowl. Some very good ideas there - if anyone will listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerowl Posted August 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 YES, what else do you suggest to cover injuries then? Cancel meetings til everyone is OK? Of course not. What I am suggesting is that the doubling up regulations have got totally out of control and sees many of the Elite League tracks running with four doubling up riders. All this means, is that when one of them gets hurt (Masters, Birks, Robson, Rose etc.) it means that two teams are using guests for one injury. There are about 30 riders riding for two teams at the moment and fixture clashes are inevitable. I accept that injuries are part and parcel of the sport but when a team loses at home with three or four guests when riders have been injured racing for other teams in the UK or abroad, or are riding for some other team they have no affiliation for, is it any wonder that fans vote with their feet. Your next comment might be 'there aren't enough riders to go round.' This is a self fulfilling prophecy as the number of available team places dry up, the number of riders to fill them also dries up. There are enough periods in speedway's history to show that riders can be found when there is a need. In 1947 when a third division was created, in 1960 when the Provincial League was formed and in 1968 when the British League Division Two began, there was the same cry. The lads who have come from moto cross in recent years demonstrate that there is a willingness to move sports if there is an opportunity there. The promoters are all bleating about low crowds but they do nothing to encourage people to return. Fans support a team. They want to feel a loyalty to the riders (Morton and Collins at Belle Vue, Wyer and Wilson at Sheffield, Louis and Davey at Ipswich etc) and this essential part of the sport has been stripped away from the fans as they see their riders turning out for three or four teams per week in the UK and abroad. I realise that the riders need to make a living and they might well be happy with the current state of affairs, but, the most important part of the equation is the fans and it is clear from the numbers on the terraces that things need to change. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) Of course not. What I am suggesting is that the doubling up regulations have got totally out of control and sees many of the Elite League tracks running with four doubling up riders. All this means, is that when one of them gets hurt (Masters, Birks, Robson, Rose etc.) it means that two teams are using guests for one injury. There are about 30 riders riding for two teams at the moment and fixture clashes are inevitable. I accept that injuries are part and parcel of the sport but when a team loses at home with three or four guests when riders have been injured racing for other teams in the UK or abroad, or are riding for some other team they have no affiliation for, is it any wonder that fans vote with their feet. Your next comment might be 'there aren't enough riders to go round.' This is a self fulfilling prophecy as the number of available team places dry up, the number of riders to fill them also dries up. There are enough periods in speedway's history to show that riders can be found when there is a need. In 1947 when a third division was created, in 1960 when the Provincial League was formed and in 1968 when the British League Division Two began, there was the same cry. The lads who have come from moto cross in recent years demonstrate that there is a willingness to move sports if there is an opportunity there. The promoters are all bleating about low crowds but they do nothing to encourage people to return. Fans support a team. They want to feel a loyalty to the riders (Morton and Collins at Belle Vue, Wyer and Wilson at Sheffield, Louis and Davey at Ipswich etc) and this essential part of the sport has been stripped away from the fans as they see their riders turning out for three or four teams per week in the UK and abroad. I realise that the riders need to make a living and they might well be happy with the current state of affairs, but, the most important part of the equation is the fans and it is clear from the numbers on the terraces that things need to change. You are having a great day today Tigerowl. Another superb Post. Everything you have said in your last two Posts just about sums the Sport up for me. Add in Tactical Rides and Play Offs and you can see why folk no longer bother to attend. EDIT: Ooops - I forgot - the bloody 'Joker' in the 'It's a Knockout' Speedway World Cup. Edited August 2, 2015 by The White Knight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerowl Posted August 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 You are having a great day today Tigerowl. Another superb Post. Everything you have said in your last two Posts just about sums the Sport up for me. Add in Tactical Rides and Play Offs and you can see why folk no longer bother to attend. EDIT: Ooops - I forgot - the bloody 'Joker' in the 'It's a Knockout' Speedway World Cup. Don't get me started on the tactical rides White Knight!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 Don't get me started on the tactical rides White Knight!! But it is all symptomatic Tigerowl - all of the things you mention plus those I mentioned are dragging Speedway down - why will no-one in Authority do anything about it. Speedway needs root and Branch reorganization, most people seem to accept/recognize this - yet nothing happens. With the added stringent Austerity Cuts, which will obviously affect the pockets of some Supporters at least, by the Government Speedway will be finished if nothing happens - yet, as I say nothing has happened and in my opinion nothing will. I only hope that I am proved wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 You are having a great day today Tigerowl. Another superb Post. Everything you have said in your last two Posts just about sums the Sport up for me. Add in Tactical Rides and Play Offs and you can see why folk no longer bother to attend. EDIT: Ooops - I forgot - the bloody 'Joker' in the 'It's a Knockout' Speedway World Cup. Silly post ..crowds were packed when there was the more unfair ts rule and play offs in all sports are a massive success so yet again that has zero bearing on why fans don't go ....this is the problem we these can't of topics they just turn into a load of old speedway fans wanting the rules when they used to go. the ts v the tactical proves that perfectly 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerowl Posted August 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) Sorry to harp on but... The answer shouldn't be too hard to find. We have 31 teams over the three divisions this year (lets hope its as many in 2016). That means we need 217 riders to staff the teams to full strength. I reckon that about 130 British riders have turned out in league racing, mainly in the National League this year. So, there are the riders, it's just that most of them are riding at the wrong level. The Premier League shouldn't be for riders like Craig Cook, Danny King, Ben Barker and Simon Stead. If they want to ride there, then fine, but that should be where they ride - not for anyone else. Similarly, the National League shouldn't be for people like Max Clegg, Ben Morley, Danny Ayres, Danny Halsey, Adam Ellis, Bradley Wilson-Dean and Dan Greenwood. You might say that Clegg is averaging only about four points per match in the Premier League. Well, he is, but he is up against riders who ought to be in the league above. I was at Sheffield to watch the Cradley challenge match the other week. There was a lad called Tyler Govier for Cradley who has made three league appearances for the Heathens. He looked a tidy rider and wasn't anywhere near a 'wobbler' I might have expected. These are the lads that should be regulars in the National League, not just scratching around for rides, getting disillusioned and drifting out of the sport. There will always be the natural talents like Collins, Loram, Lee and Woffinden who will make it no matter what, but would Peter Craven have become world champion if there was doubling up in the early 1950s? Probably not, because he wouldn't have been given a chance. The fact is that there are the riders out there. They just need to be given a chance and stopping the doubling up nonsense would be a first step. Sorry. I'll shut up now!! Edited August 2, 2015 by tigerowl 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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