waiheke1 Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 Just had an idea but haven't properly thought it through yet, but how about keep,the TR but any rider nominated to go for double points can't be nominated for heat 15 ? That would stretch the TM's imagination a bit.Or if one side has used the tr, the other side gets to use it in heat 15. U get the benefit of potentially keeping the contest alive for longer, but with the leading team not significantly disadvantaged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) No they weren't.. the crowds had long gone before any of the changes you're complaining about... but don't let facts get in the way again. Speedway is in the mess it is because it simple HASN'T changed and has for too long pandered to the old fans. Rugby League and Cricket are two perfect examples where the old fans bitched about the radical changes made to the sport. End result, some of them don't go anymore, but they've been replaced by thousands more. Speedway has never taken the big step to overhaul and modernise its product. we still await the positive ideas just be aware - sticking your head above the parapets gets it blown off in what way do i indicate that i don't advocate change? Just because I'd like the old tac sub rule back. I have a list a mile long in my head to do with track materials technology, engine noise and size, marketing, team sizes, the very name of the sport, etc etc You think I'd suggest them in public on here? I'd get a dozen posts about how stupid I am. No thanks You however seem to have given up judging by your last post. In that case can you please cut those of us who haven't some slack Back when that nice man Jimmy Saville used to fix it for kids? And they built things out of that ultramodern, truely innovative material asbestos and it was perfectly acceptably to have 5 pints before driving. Yes, everything back in the 60s and 70s was better and we should go back to them days. Things move on. Thank God! But speedway just seems to refuse to. yes we leave that type of thing to Asian gangs these days (you could say we outsourced it)** and they dont actually build anything at all these days (certainly not affordable housing) people are walking the streets smacked off their ** these days (we're on to 2nd and 3rd generation unemployable in some families with no sign of it changing) there are no police at weekends ot evenings (unless you're driving) its so much better now can we try and stick to motorbikes going round in circles because you're on a loser with this (irrelevant) argument **please do not play the race card i really can't be bothered posting a dozen links to news stories to back this up Edited August 8, 2015 by ch958 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) Regarding the cost, perhaps I didn't explain myself well enough on it. Cost can make a big difference in occasional meetings.. it wouldn't be sustained over a longer period however. It's also relevant to the existing supporter base.. but there aren't enough of those now anyway. My point regarding the cost is, it is irrelevant to non speedway fans in the main. If they think speedway is not the place to be, it doesn't matter if its £1 or £20 they won't come. If however they think its the 'in thing' and the place to be at, they'll pay a lot more than £20 for it. That is what the sport has to try and do. Reinvent itself on the marketing side, use the reduced ticket offers on EVERY SINGLE TV meeting. To be fair, experience tends to suggest you are right. You are also right about the 'in' thing, too, and reducing prices for TV meetings (I believe Somerset are doing precisely that next Tuesday). What suggests to me that cost is an issue is the number of people - mostly ex speedway fans - who raise value for money as an issue. Teams can often get back into a match as a result of gate positions . For, example, let's say the best gates are 1 and 3 and the visitors are off p2and 4 in heat 1. That means that in six of the first nine heats the visitors would be off the least favourable gates and naturally fall behind. Then in four of the next five heats they are off the best gates, on top of that their numbers 1 and 5 , invariably their best two , go off the least favourable gates in their first two races but get the best gates at the business end of the meeting includ,in heat 13. That is why even without the TR some teams seem to establish a lead in the first half of the meeting then appear to let their opponents back in the match. Off course it is not a hard and fast principle and some meetings have more even gates than others but most TR's seem to come at around heats. 7-10 ie at about the point where they are starting to get a run of better gatke positions. Next time you see a team get back into a match look at the gate positions when it happens. That is something that adds to the unfairness of the TR. That can be true, but I'd maintain that speedway matches are transformed by a tactical ride from nothing meetings to exceptional ones and I doubt if anyone would disagree with that. I am also struggling precisely to see how tactical rides are unfair because to be so they must give an inherent advantage to one club over another. All clubs know about them before the season and before a match and all can use them. As I said before, over a number of seasons the number of times a team benefits from one and loses out in the same way probably evens out. It might be said that Edinburgh benefit from them because of the presence of Craig Cook, while Plymouth lose out because their number 1 is Kyle Newman. That, of itself, balances out because Plymouth have Todd Kurtz and Sam Simota at reserve (and can take four additional rides if necessary) while Edinburgh have Rob Branford and Max Clegg. I think its just that the concept of allowing double points is so alien compared to other sports that people (both in and out of speedway) regard it as unfair and, indeed, ridiculous. As I (and indeed others) have said all along, you simply can't make comparisons with other sports. One football supporter once mocked speedway to me, saying as if a goal should count double. He seemed to overlook the fact that occasionally in football it does. Edited August 8, 2015 by Halifaxtiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) I'm afraid the chance may well have gone.. On the contrary ! There is plenty of time to document your ideas to modernise / fix speedway .Your one of the most vocal on here.Don't be shy ! Lets here em Edited August 8, 2015 by New Science Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 On the contrary ! There is plenty of time to document your ideas to modernise / fix speedway .Your one of the most vocal on here.Don't be shy ! Lets here em I've documented them many, many times. About 5 or 6 seasons ago I posted a very long detailed plan which received in excess of 50 likes, somewhat unheard of on the BSF. Within it I also stated that if the sport continued along its path of cost cutting and reducing the standard, only one thing would happen, more and more people would walk away. It has panned out exactly how I said. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 I've documented them many, many times. About 5 or 6 seasons ago I posted a very long detailed plan which received in excess of 50 likes, somewhat unheard of on the BSF. Within it I also stated that if the sport continued along its path of cost cutting and reducing the standard, only one thing would happen, more and more people would walk away. It has panned out exactly how I said. unfortunately i didn't see that post - perhaps now would be a good time for interested parties to post blueprints with an agreed maximum number of words and bullet points of course it would have to be from the position of reduced circumstances we are in now who wants to start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 No they weren't.. the crowds had long gone before any of the changes you're complaining about... but don't let facts get in the way again. Speedway is in the mess it is because it simple HASN'T changed and has for too long pandered to the old fans. Rugby League and Cricket are two perfect examples where the old fans bitched about the radical changes made to the sport. End result, some of them don't go anymore, but they've been replaced by thousands more. Speedway has never taken the big step to overhaul and modernise its product. Last night Redcar Bears at Somerset, R/R and 3 guests, needless to say I stayed at home. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 Last night Redcar Bears at Somerset, R/R and 3 guests, needless to say I stayed at home. That has happened since speedway began. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 That has happened since speedway began. Not every week thou I've documented them many, many times. About 5 or 6 seasons ago I posted a very long detailed plan which received in excess of 50 likes, somewhat unheard of on the BSF. Within it I also stated that if the sport continued along its path of cost cutting and reducing the standard, only one thing would happen, more and more people would walk away. It has panned out exactly how I said. I've not read your plan but fair enough 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 Last night Redcar Bears at Somerset, R/R and 3 guests, needless to say I stayed at home.TBF I'm not sure what the solution is to that one. Some will say squads but you'd be replacing heatleaders with NL riders and people would say they're not paying to see weak teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) That has happened since speedway began.Fans are fed up with it now though, perhaps time for a rethink Edited August 8, 2015 by Fromafar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rabbit Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) That has happened since speedway began. At second tier level and in those numbers? I recall four guests for Panthers in the 70s and, on checking their website, it turns out I'm nine out. That's 13 in a decade. Of course, Panthers might not have wanted to use guests and the others all did in greater numbers but I wouldn't bet on it. Riders riding for more than one team, both world-wide and domestically, has gone through the roof and with it the number of guests being used. Edited August 8, 2015 by Barney Rabbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 TBF I'm not sure what the solution is to that one. Some will say squads but you'd be replacing heatleaders with NL riders and people would say they're not paying to see weak teams. Surely that wouldn't be the case.Each team would/should have cover for heatleaders in their squad,so when one is missing they call up another.The trouble is though that some riders in the squad probably wouldn't get enough meetings each season to get a fair average,so would be on false averages.It would though I guess mean even more foreign riders filling up squad positions....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 Surely that wouldn't be the case.Each team would/should have cover for heatleaders in their squad,so when one is missing they call up another.The trouble is though that some riders in the squad probably wouldn't get enough meetings each season to get a fair average,so would be on false averages.It would though I guess mean even more foreign riders filling up squad positions.......but if you have a load of heat leader in squads and not riding you have just taken 12ish heatleaders out of the league. So you weaken every meeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 At second tier level and in those numbers? I recall four guests for Panthers in the 70s and, on checking their website, it turns out I'm nine out. That's 13 in a decade. Of course, Panthers might not have wanted to use guests and the others all did in greater numbers but I wouldn't bet on it. Riders riding for more than one team, both world-wide and domestically, has gone through the roof and with it the number of guests being used. i can only speak anecdotally but Cleveland Park in the 70s i can't recall many times guests were used as i say anecdotally - not scientific we really need a forensic examination of injuries as well - they SEEM more regular than in the past regardless of whether guests were as common then as it is now a more sophisticated modern audience won't have it I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 but if you have a load of heat leader in squads and not riding you have just taken 12ish heatleaders out of the league. So you weaken every meeting. Not particularly.At EL level at least there are heat leaders who don't want to do all the meetings.At PL level you might be able to attract heat leader level riders who also don't want to spend half their season in the UK.They would though be foreign riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 I know one thing, if Ward and Holder were constantly going out on TS rides for Poole, ie 6 rides each per meeting, you wouldn't be watching Speedwáy , nor would I nor would loads of others. That really would be the ruination of the sport. Much as I loath the present TR rule I can see that bringing the old TS back would be a big step backwards. My whole argument E I Addio, is that I don't want either the Tactical Substitute or the Tactical Ride. Meetings should be decided by Points scored on the Track. That is the sole thrust of my argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 My whole argument E I Addio, is that I don't want either the Tactical Substitute or the Tactical Ride. Meetings should be decided by Points scored on the Track. That is the sole thrust of my argument. When was the last time speedway in this country operated without tactical substitute / tactical rides. Its not been in my time (30 years of attendance) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 When was the last time speedway in this country operated without tactical substitute / tactical rides. Its not been in my time (30 years of attendance) i) Never. ii) Mine neither. (51 years of attendance). I just stated the way I think it ought to be. That is my opinion and I stand by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) i) Never. ii) Mine neither. (51 years of attendance). I just stated the way I think it ought to be. That is my opinion and I stand by it. I think you could be wrong in saying never,I can't remember tactical substitutes in the 60's.Some one might be able to tell when they were first introduced I'm sure. Edited August 9, 2015 by Fromafar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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