TonyMac Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 it is simply not credible to ride for two teams in the same country - end of argument really. Long time fans may accept it (though i never have) but we need a new audience and they will not accept it i'd rather teams got hammered with their own riders - it happens often enough anyway Spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 Speedway has the biggest advertising tool available, live coverage on a regular basis on TV. However, they don't use it. To attract new, young fans you need to make it appear to be the place to be.. broadcasting meetings in front of one man and his dog send a clear message, this isn't worth bothering with. If every week the tv fixture was played out in front of a big vibrant crowd it again sends a clear message.... this is something worth looking at. It's not complicated. There have been signs just lately that after 15+ years they are starting to work it out.. Sadly 15 years of damage has been done in that time! TV meetings should not be dreaded by supporters.. they should be looked forward to, welcomed.. Brilliant, we're on TV next week, the atmosphere is going to be amazing! Top Post BW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 As previously agreed, most sports have silly rules and, as we all know, some of them are poorly run. But NONE stoop quite so low as to allow its competitors to appear for LOTS of different teams in the same season. The guest rider rule is, above all, the main reason why speedway remains a laughing stock. It's a big factor in why existing fans are turning their backs on the sport and why potential new fans will continue to shun it. I really can't comprehend how anyone can think otherwise. That irritates me Tony - but it is the Double Points Tactical Ride that really does my head in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMac Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) I can never understand why ex speedway fans bother to come onto a speedway forum just to run the sport down and not only that but seem to take delight in doing so at every opportunity. Perhaps 'ex fans' still care about a sport they have gradually fallen out of love with and expressing views on the forum is one way of offering possible solutions to problems that need to be addressed if the sport in the UK is to have a future. By the way, there seem to be more than enough current fans around here 'running the sport down'. The powers that be could do a lot worse than listen to what ex-fans have to say and learn a thing or two from people who have witnessed good times and bad. After all, there are often good reasons why they have become ex-fans. Or we could all just bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything in the garden is rosy. Edited August 4, 2015 by tmc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) I mentioned speedway to a friend who is a National sports journalist. He grinned and suggested its links towards one of Walt Disney's original cartoon characters! The clue is in 'MM'!!! I can never understand why ex speedway fans bother to come onto a speedway forum just to run the sport down and not only that but seem to take delight in doing so at every opportunity. Dont think he Majority are ex-fans.Some die - hard fans are showing concern IMO ,while they might be in the Minority on this Forum,the rest have just walked away without complaining IMO . Perhaps 'ex fans' still care about a sport they have gradually fallen out of love with and expressing views on the forum is one way of offering possible solutions to problems that need to be addressed if the sport in the UK is to have a future. By the way, there seem to be more than enough current fans around here 'running the sport down'. The powers that be could do a lot worse than listen to what ex-fans have to say and learn a thing or two from people who have witnessed good time and bad. After all, there are often good reasons why they have become ex-fans. Or we could all just bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything in the garden is rosy. If there is an intimation that I am an ex-follower of speedway then it's far from accurate. I am actively engaged with a series of websites contributing items/features in regard to speedway - and welcomed for my contributions. I also have active inter-action with several Facebook groups also seem to find no problems with my views on speedway. Hence the reason why I repudiate any attempt to classify me as "...an ex-speedway fan with a grudge.." because it is not correct. What I am is a speedway follower of 69 seasons who is seeing a once great sport slowly destroying itself. Edited August 4, 2015 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMac Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 Speedway has the biggest advertising tool available, live coverage on a regular basis on TV. However, they don't use it. To attract new, young fans you need to make it appear to be the place to be.. broadcasting meetings in front of one man and his dog send a clear message, this isn't worth bothering with. If every week the tv fixture was played out in front of a big vibrant crowd it again sends a clear message.... this is something worth looking at. It's not complicated. There have been signs just lately that after 15+ years they are starting to work it out.. Sadly 15 years of damage has been done in that time! TV meetings should not be dreaded by supporters.. they should be looked forward to, welcomed.. Brilliant, we're on TV next week, the atmosphere is going to be amazing! Speedway and TV has two fundamental problems. 1. Speedway is not a sport well suited to live coverage In general (and there are many reasons for this) too many televised meetings produce little passing and excitement and the racing is therefore boring. Too many domestic meetings drag on far too long, with ridiculous delays between races, riders delaying the start, unnecessary reruns, 'gardening', track grading, etc, all making it unwatchable to a casual audience. And as you allude to, the sight of acres of empty terracing and grass banking would put off would-be supporters and sponsors alike. 2. Sky are only interested in live sport. The second point is a great pity, because what speedway really needs to best showcase the thrills and spills, the most thrilling races, the moments of controversy, and the characters who are good in front of a camera when interviewed . . . is a half-hour to 40-mins HIGHLIGHTS package. This would ideally be a round-up of the week in British speedway, including a few interviews with the people in the news, plus edited clips from around British venues supplied (in return for an agreed fee) to the various companies who film at the tracks each week for the purposes of their DVD sales. Wouldn't it be great to have a small studio, where a knowledgeable presenter, the anchor man (or woman), introduced various clips and interviews from around the tracks - maybe separate segments on EL, PL & NL - and a studio guest to debate the latest big talking points? I'd have a Crashes of the Week segment - whether you like it or not, if you want to lure new fans to the sport, especially youngsters, they want to see dramatic crash sequences. It's part and parcel of the sport and the danger element is an important edge that speedway shouldn't shy away from. You'd finish the show with a look at the following week's fixtures, so it would be in the interests of all EL, PL & NL tracks to co-operate fully. I have considered putting together a proposal package along these very basic lines, with a view to getting BSPA/Go Speed approval - if not for screening on a TV channel, then as an online highlights show accessed via the web - perhaps even a pay channel (charging only a small seasonal subscription fee) that all of British speedway benefits from. But, obviously, the above dream scenario is a no-go while the BSPA/Go Speed contract is in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 As previously agreed, most sports have silly rules and, as we all know, some of them are poorly run. But NONE stoop quite so low as to allow its competitors to appear for LOTS of different teams in the same season. The guest rider rule is, above all, the main reason why speedway remains a laughing stock. It's a big factor in why existing fans are turning their backs on the sport and why potential new fans will continue to shun it. I really can't comprehend how anyone can think otherwise. Perhaps because the 'guest' rule was around when speedway was packing out stadiums.. So really, its quite simple for people to think otherwise because history has already shown it to be otherwise! Even doubling up was around as far back as 1975 when Michael Lee rode for both Kings Lynn and Boston for example. That isn't to say I don't think there is too much doubling up going on now, but it is categorically not the reason why fans have stopped attending the sport. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMac Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) That isn't to say I don't think there is too much doubling up going on now, but it is categorically not the reason why fans have stopped attending the sport. No, but it's a bloody great barrier to NEW fans getting interested in speedway. Come on, guests and doubling-up have gone through the roof, off the radar, compared to years past. Edited August 4, 2015 by tmc 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 Speedway and TV has two fundamental problems. 1. Speedway is not a sport well suited to live coverage In general (and there are many reasons for this) too many televised meetings produce little passing and excitement and the racing is therefore boring. Too many domestic meetings drag on far too long, with ridiculous delays between races, riders delaying the start, unnecessary reruns, 'gardening', track grading, etc, all making it unwatchable to a casual audience. And as you allude to, the sight of acres of empty terracing and grass banking would put off would-be supporters and sponsors alike. 2. Sky are only interested in live sport. The second point is a great pity, because what speedway really needs to best showcase the thrills and spills, the most thrilling races, the moments of controversy, and the characters who are good in front of a camera when interviewed . . . is a half-hour to 40-mins HIGHLIGHTS package. This would ideally be a round-up of the week in British speedway, including a few interviews with the people in the news, plus edited clips from around British venues supplied (in return for an agreed fee) to the various companies who film at the tracks each week for the purposes of their DVD sales. Wouldn't it be great to have a small studio, where a knowledgeable presenter, the anchor man (or woman), introduced various clips and interviews from around the tracks - maybe separate segments on EL, PL & NL - and a studio guest to debate the latest big talking points? I'd have a Crashes of the Week segment - whether you like it or not, if you want to lure new fans to the sport, especially youngsters, they want to see dramatic crash sequences. It's part and parcel of the sport and the danger element is an important edge that speedway shouldn't shy away from. You'd finish the show with a look at the following week's fixtures, so it would be in the interests of all EL, PL & NL tracks to co-operate fully. I have considered putting together a proposal package along these very basic lines, with a view to getting BSPA/Go Speed approval - if not for screening on a TV channel, then as an online highlights show accessed via the web - perhaps even a pay channel (charging only a small seasonal subscription fee) that all of British speedway benefits from. But, obviously, the above dream scenario is a no-go while the BSPA/Go Speed contract is in place. Speedway is not suited to live coverage?? It's perfect for live coverage from a TV companies point of view. Natural breaks for advertising and promoting other products. Opportunity to build up tension before the next race, view replays etc. Meetings drag on for far too long?? Have you ever watched cricket? Even NFL, MLB go on for much longer. Premier League Darts will run for 3 hours, sometimes more with lots of talking in between. You're another who has fallen into the trap that it's exciting racing that brings in the fans. Again, an utter myth. Does Formula One have exciting racing? Absolutely not, but millions think its a must watch. The quality of the racing is of secondary importance.. as long as its a big packed crowd the racing will naturally appear more exciting. Riders will naturally be more up for it and determined to put on a good show. No, but it's a bloody great barrier to NEW fans getting interested in speedway. Come on, guests and doubling-up have gone through the roof, off the radar, compared to years past. So when did it become a barrier? 50's? 60's? 70's? 80's? 90's? Crowds were up and down in those periods, with a particular nosedive taking place from the mid 80's onwards.. incidentally, there was no doubling up in the mid 80's as far as I can remember.. yet there was in the 70's. The problem speedway had is it became lazy. It became too reliant on the existing fan base, did little marketing to attract new younger fans, the presentation remained (and still does for the most part) the same format as had been used for 40 years prior, whilst all around it other sports, less successful sports were adapting and modifying for the new era around them. This meant the sport went further and further away from the mainstream public, leading its fans to be knows as geeks and a speedway track the last place to be seen. THAT is what needs fixing first and how good the racing is, how many double uppers there may or not be has no relevance to it. Fill the stadiums by any means necessary for TV matches and you will start to change public perception. Until you do that, everything else is utterly irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMac Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 Night all. Have done enough banging of head against brick wall. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 Perhaps 'ex fans' still care about a sport they have gradually fallen out of love with and expressing views on the forum is one way of offering possible solutions to problems that need to be addressed if the sport in the UK is to have a future. By the way, there seem to be more than enough current fans around here 'running the sport down'. The powers that be could do a lot worse than listen to what ex-fans have to say and learn a thing or two from people who have witnessed good times and bad. After all, there are often good reasons why they have become ex-fans. O Or we could all just bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything in the garden is rosy. You can always tell when people have lost the argument , because they always start accusing anyone who doesn't agree with them of burying their heads in the sand instead of dealing with the merits of the argument. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 Night all. Have done enough banging of head against brick wall. Pick your toys up on the way out. It's no good spouting rubbish and then when you're shown to be wrong storming off. You've made a claim, its been pointed out to you why that claim isn't accurate. Let's put it this way, a casual viewer flicking through the sports channels comes across speedway, sees there is nobody watching it.. he/she isn't likely to stick around. So double uppers/guest riders/tacticals/quality of racing are all completely irrelevant. Most people, even most of us, are like sheep, we're programmed that way. If we see many other people watching or liking something, we instinctively think it must be something worthwhile. You can always tell when people have lost the argument , because they always start accusing anyone who doesn't agree with them of burying their heads in the sand instead of dealing with the merits of the argument. Correct, then once their claims have been picked apart, they storm off in a huff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) Fair enough. If it's not the idiosyncracies of the sport's rules that's keeping them away it must be the lack of good action. Other sports do have their 'silly rules' (your words), but matches don't start with lop-sided teams and team-members aren't borrowed on an ad-hoc basis from opponents. For someone that follows, or, indeed, plays other sports, that's an alien concept which some may find laughable. Especially in a professional sport where a particular team's player is asked to stand in for his team's nearest challengers (for a trophy) and do his utmost to knock his own team off of top spot Silly rules are silly rules ...look at F1 the best drivers driving the best cars having a head over the slower ones ...I find that laughable . I find the cricket review system laughable ..it shows you out lbw but if at times you can be given not out and so and so on . As I said before we had guests and rr when the crowds were massive and the fans never worried about it so why would they be worried about it now . Did these fans never play other sports in the 70's was is not a alien concept then ? The bottom line is as the standard in British Speedway dropped after it fell behind Sweden and Poland and so have the crowds . Edited August 4, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 You can always tell when people have lost the argument , because they always start accusing anyone who doesn't agree with them of burying their heads in the sand instead of dealing with the merits of the argumenT Utter rubbish. There is no point in carrying on a conversation with people who'll insist black is white just to have a good argument. That's not debate. Pick your toys up on the way out. Typical post. Carry on like this and your audience will be just the other trolls. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) Perhaps 'ex fans' still care about a sport they have gradually fallen out of love with and expressing views on the forum is one way of offering possible solutions to problems that need to be addressed if the sport in the UK is to have a future. By the way, there seem to be more than enough current fans around here 'running the sport down'. The powers that be could do a lot worse than listen to what ex-fans have to say and learn a thing or two from people who have witnessed good times and bad. After all, there are often good reasons why they have become ex-fans. Or we could all just bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything in the garden is rosy. Perhaps I should have made my post clearer as it was a response to one person in particular which is the post I quoted, so change that to 'ex fan' not 'ex fans'. I'm all for expressing views and giving opinions what is wrong with the sport if it's constructive criticism. I do enough moaning myself if there are sunbreaks and endless laps of tractor grading to sort out a crappy track that should have been prepared properly before the match started not while it's on, but what is constructive about this post? I mentioned speedway to a friend who is a National sports journalist. He grinned and suggested its links towards one of Walt Disney's original cartoon characters! The clue is in 'MM'!!! Perhaps it's supposed to be funny and I'm just having a sense of humour failure. If there is an intimation that I am an ex-follower of speedway then it's far from accurate. I am actively engaged with a series of websites contributing items/features in regard to speedway - and welcomed for my contributions. I also have active inter-action with several Facebook groups also seem tp find no problems with my views on speedway. Hence the reason why I repudiate any attempt to classify me as "...an ex-speedway fan with a grudge.." because it is not correct. What I am is a speedway follower of 69 seasons who is seeing a once great sport slowly destroying itself. So you have posted these comments on one of the Facebook groups and other websites you're involved with? I mentioned speedway to a friend who is a National sports journalist. He grinned and suggested its links towards one of Walt Disney's original cartoon characters! The clue is in 'MM'!!! I don't seem to have come across it yet but would be interested to read the responses if you could tell me where to look please. Oh....and for the record I've been a Speedway fan for almost as long as you - 67 years - but I'm not just a follower I'm still a fan. Edited August 4, 2015 by Gemini 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) Silly rules are silly rules ...look at F1 the best drivers driving the best cars having a head over the slower ones ...I find that laughable . I find the cricket review system laughable ..it shows you out lbw but if at times you can be given not out and so and so on . As I said before we had guests and rr when the crowds were massive and the fans never worried about it so why would they be worried about it now . Did these fans never play other sports in the 70's was is not a alien concept then ? The bottom line is as the standard in British Speedway dropped after it fell behind Sweden and Poland and so have the crowds . Yes, and the '70s fan could smoke his Woodbines on the terraces and got the evening's results at 10pm on Luxembourg. But it isn't the '70s fans we need to get into the stadia these days. Their view of the silly rules is irrelevant, it's the modern perception that's important here. Edited August 4, 2015 by Vincent Blackshadow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 Speedway and TV has two fundamental problems. 1. Speedway is not a sport well suited to live coverage In general (and there are many reasons for this) too many televised meetings produce little passing and excitement and the racing is therefore boring. Too many domestic meetings drag on far too long, with ridiculous delays between races, riders delaying the start, unnecessary reruns, 'gardening', track grading, etc, all making it unwatchable to a casual audience. And as you allude to, the sight of acres of empty terracing and grass banking would put off would-be supporters and sponsors alike. . That' is the sort of non-point that typifies this sort of thread. If you sit a non-cricket fan in front of a televised cricket match they will almost certainly make the same criticisms, especially if the circumstances demand the batsmen play defensively and are not scoring many runs, even more so when the re is a delay for bad light. Non rugby fans quickly become bored with games where them flow is constantly delayed by line outs. On the other hand you could sit me in front the most exciting soccer match of the season and within minutes I become almost I'll with boredom . The point is certain types of people like certain types of sports. Nobody likes guests etc but most sensible fans realise there is no alternative much of the time. It is in the nature of the sport. The reasons for declining crowds are very complex and there is no quick fix answer. Greyhounds, stock cars, grass track motor cross and a number of other outdoor sports have similarly suffered to a greater or lesser degree, partly due to economic reasons , partly due to other factors. The only hard evidence we have. Is that when a team do well the crowds go up and when they do badly the crowds usually drop. I would suggest, based on other fans I have spoken to that the next biggest complaint is the very erratic fixture list, that leaves fans getting into them habit of doing other things on race . Of course the fact that TV broadcasts from all round the Speedwáy world has reached saturation point is another factor. There comes a point where couch potato mentality takes over if one is not careful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) Utter rubbish. There is no point in carrying on a conversation with people who'll insist black is white just to have a good argument. That's not debate. Typical post. Carry on like this and your audience will be just the other trolls. Crowds were big in the 70's. FACT There were guests in the 70's. FACT. There was doubling up in the 70's. FACT. I'm not the one saying black is white, so try again and stop trying to rewrite history or, make things up, to suit your argument. I'm also not the one who stormed off because my views were questioned Yes, and the '70s fan could smoke his Woodbines on the terraces and got the evening's results at 10pm on Luxembourg. But it isn't the '70s fans we need to get into the stadia these days. Their view of the silly rules is irrelevant, it's the modern perception that has to be changed. Exactly.. And many people are very fickle, show them people having a good time, they'll be interested. Edited August 4, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) That' is the sort of non-point that typifies this sort of thread. If you sit a non-cricket fan in front of a televised cricket match they will almost certainly make the same criticisms, especially if the circumstances demand the batsmen play defensively and are not scoring many runs, even more so when the re is a delay for bad light. Non rugby fans quickly become bored with games where them flow is constantly delayed by line outs. On the other hand you could sit me in front the most exciting soccer match of the season and within minutes I become almost I'll with boredom . The point is certain types of people like certain types of sports. Nobody likes guests etc but most sensible fans realise there is no alternative much of the time. It is in the nature of the sport. The reasons for declining crowds are very complex and there is no quick fix answer. Greyhounds, stock cars, grass track motor cross and a number of other outdoor sports have similarly suffered to a greater or lesser degree, partly due to economic reasons , partly due to other factors. The only hard evidence we have. Is that when a team do well the crowds go up and when they do badly the crowds usually drop. I would suggest, based on other fans I have spoken to that the next biggest complaint is the very erratic fixture list, that leaves fans getting into them habit of doing other things on race . Of course the fact that TV broadcasts from all round the Speedwáy world has reached saturation point is another factor. There comes a point where couch potato mentality takes over if one is not careful I'd say you've got it in one as far as keeping current fans is concerned. However, I doubt that has any bearing on any newbys' first attendance. The match they've been directed to or singled out is a specific match on a given day. Any previous match or subsequent meeting wouldn't be in their thinking. Edited August 4, 2015 by Vincent Blackshadow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) Yes, and the '70s fan could smoke his Woodbines on the terraces and got the evening's results at 10pm on Luxembourg. But it isn't the '70s fans we need to get into the stadia these days. Their view of the silly rules is irrelevant, it's the modern perception that has to be changed. Not really you said that speedway fans were not coming because of the silly rules as I said other sports have them and it does not stop them don't the fans used perception in those sports ? .. if a guest rule is stupid now then then is still was in the 1970's .. there is no reason why the perception would be any different Edited August 4, 2015 by orion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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