Saturday Night At The Speedway

[teddy2706]

Recently I read an article in a Vintage transport magazine that a coach company based near Whitchurch in Shropshire ran weekly coaches to Belle Vue speedway which must be nearly a hundred mile round trip? (This was in the fifties and sixties I believe).

It did suprise me.

 

I wonder how much it would cost to charter a coach today to get fifty supporters from fifty miles away into a stadium?

Would it be worthwhile for a promoter to subsidise such a coach excursion?

 

Certainly passengers could have a drink at the stadium without worries if they were being collected and dropped off for a short taxi ride home.

Could you get fifty people from Leeds or Nottingham on a subsidised coach trip to Scunthorpe?

Or fifty people from Liverpool to Belle Vue?

Or even fifty people from Guildford to Eastbourne?

Or has it all been tried before?

[E I Addio]

Recently I read an article in a Vintage transport magazine that a coach company based near Whitchurch in Shropshire ran weekly coaches to Belle Vue speedway which must be nearly a hundred mile round trip? (This was in the fifties and sixties I believe).It did suprise me.I wonder how much it would cost to charter a coach today to get fifty supporters from fifty miles away into a stadium?Would it be worthwhile for a promoter to subsidise such a coach excursion?Certainly passengers could have a drink at the stadium without worries if they were being collected and dropped off for a short taxi ride home.Could you get fifty people from Leeds or Nottingham on a subsidised coach trip to Scunthorpe?Or fifty people from Liverpool to Belle Vue?Or even fifty people from Guildford to Eastbourne?Or has it all been tried before?

In the South East it would cost around £500 minimum. £10 or so per head would be good value if the fans were paying but it would be prohohibitive for. A promoter. Years ago Len Silver laid on a free coach from Stratford to Hackney , just a few miles which I used when I was still at school but it was a bit of an old banger and I don't think there are many like that today. More recently , until a few years ago Lakeside used to lay on a bus form the track to an Underground station somewhere but that was eventually cancelled as it wasn't cost effective.

[BWitcher]

Great post....and one of the main reasons why when you try to 'sell' Speedway to friends and workmates, their eyes just glaze over and they go back to talking about their ball games! Either that or they burst out in incredulous laughter.

 

You must be an awful salesperson.

[sparkafag]

I have always found the idea that R/R and guests are what turn potential new fans away a complete fallacy perpetuated by screen names on here, who, typically, only reference the old days of the sport.

 

At first glance to a new fan surely they want to know if they enjoy what they’re watching before they care about the intricacies and politics of the sport, surely for them to know the in-depth rules of the sport someone has told them. Why would a new fan know/care what "rider replacement" is.

 

Eg, a new fan watches a rider like Garrity race for 4 laps….surely they decide they enjoy it, rather than deciding to study their phone right there and then to look up who Garrity actually rides for/guests for doubles up etc?

 

Alternatively, if a regular attendee has taken a new fan who enjoys Garrity, Ward etc and that person turns around at the end of their first viewing of them and says “yes, pretty good”, surely it would take an absolute kill joy to turn around and say…..”Well actually wait till I tell you about the guest system”.

 

A new fan to any sport will decide they like the look of it before investing the time to learn about half the BS that surrounds a sport. Take Speedway, it’s a battle simply getting people inside the run down derelict, half empty stadia to watch four guys go around in circles to begin with, let alone getting people to emotionally invest enough to care about half the things speedway fans get worked up about.

 

I would argue the same case and point re regulars who actually just want to watch a good meeting. I don’t even know how many riders guest/double up for sides in the Lakeside v Coventry meeting last week, nor do I personally particularly care, it was a good meeting, I am fine with that.

If you want to convince yourself R/R and guests are killing the sport confirmationbias will eventually lead you to believe you’re correct, even if it isn’t the case. Obsessing over guests and R/R is unhealthy just enjoy watching guys race around the track on a bike.

Edited August 3, 2015 by sparkafag

[orion]

Great post Sparky ..another one of Speedways myths that New fans are put off by Guests and the Rules etc ..as you say it would be a long time before they started to worry about that side of the sport .

[The White Knight]

I have always found the idea that R/R and guests are what turn potential new fans away a complete fallacy perpetuated by screen names on here, who, typically, only reference the old days of the sport.

 

At first glance to a new fan surely they want to know if they enjoy what they’re watching before they care about the intricacies and politics of the sport, surely for them to know the in-depth rules of the sport someone has told them. Why would a new fan know/care what "rider replacement" is.

 

Eg, a new fan watches a rider like Garrity race for 4 laps….surely they decide they enjoy it, rather than deciding to study their phone right there and then to look up who Garrity actually rides for/guests for doubles up etc?

 

Alternatively, if a regular attendee has taken a new fan who enjoys Garrity, Ward etc turns around at the end of their first viewing of them and says “yes, pretty good”, surely it would take an absolute kill joy to turn around and say…..”Well actually wait till I tell you about the guest system”.

 

A new fan to any sport will decide they like the look of it before investing the time to learn about half the BS that surrounds a sport,. It’s a battle simply getting people inside the run down derelict, half empty stadia to watch four guys go around in circles to begin with, let alone getting people to emotionally invest enough to care about half the things speedway fans get worked up about.

Surely if you fill the new Supporters up with, as you say, BS then when they find out the truth of how our Sport works - they will probably leave anyway. :sad:

 

You need credibility - there is precious little of that in Speedway nowadays. :sad:

Great post Sparky ..another one of Speedways myths that New fans are put off by Guests and the Rules etc ..as you say it would be a long time before they started to worry about that side of the sport .

Here we go again.

[sparkafag]

Surely if you fill the new Supporters up with, as you say, BS then when they find out the truth of how our Sport works - they will probably leave anyway. :sad:

 

You need credibility - there is precious little of that in Speedway nowadays. :sad:

Here we go again.

 

Surely if they enjoy the sport, they enjoy the sport….which is 4 guys going around a track on bikes. If you wanted to boil your head off with intricacies and politics you could convince yourself to despise any sport, thus leading yourself to wonder why you bothered in the first place. The vast majority of sport Football, Rugby, F1, Atheltics ( I could go on) they all have daft rules and political BS that many people don’t agree with….it doesn’t seem to overly impact the attendances of those sports.

[Vincent Blachshadow]

Great post Sparky ..another one of Speedways myths that New fans are put off by Guests and the Rules etc ..as you say it would be a long time before they started to worry about that side of the sport .

 

The first question I asked when I had a look at a programme was 'why is this rider in italics when the rest are in ordinary print?'

 

I took a couple of newbies with me a couple of years back and the observant one asked why, when the other 5 are in identical leathers, is one in a different set and wearing a bib? He hadn't yet noticed there were seven names in the programme but only six riders out there!

Edited August 3, 2015 by Vincent Blackshadow

[The White Knight]

 

The first question I asked when I had a look at a programme was 'why is this rider in italics when the rest are in ordinary print?'

 

I took a couple of newbies with me a couple of years back and the observant one asked why, when the other 5 are in identical leathers, is one in a different set and wearing a bib? He hadn't noticed there were seven names in the programme but only six riders out there yet!

Game, Set and Match to VB I think.

[Fromafar]

I have always found the idea that R/R and guests are what turn potential new fans away a complete fallacy perpetuated by screen names on here, who, typically, only reference the old days of the sport.

 

At first glance to a new fan surely they want to know if they enjoy what they’re watching before they care about the intricacies and politics of the sport, surely for them to know the in-depth rules of the sport someone has told them. Why would a new fan know/care what "rider replacement" is.

 

Eg, a new fan watches a rider like Garrity race for 4 laps….surely they decide they enjoy it, rather than deciding to study their phone right there and then to look up who Garrity actually rides for/guests for doubles up etc?

 

Alternatively, if a regular attendee has taken a new fan who enjoys Garrity, Ward etc and that person turns around at the end of their first viewing of them and says “yes, pretty good”, surely it would take an absolute kill joy to turn around and say…..”Well actually wait till I tell you about the guest system”.

 

A new fan to any sport will decide they like the look of it before investing the time to learn about half the BS that surrounds a sport. Take Speedway, it’s a battle simply getting people inside the run down derelict, half empty stadia to watch four guys go around in circles to begin with, let alone getting people to emotionally invest enough to care about half the things speedway fans get worked up about.

 

I would argue the same case and point re regulars who actually just want to watch a good meeting. I don’t even know how many riders guest/double up for sides in the Lakeside v Coventry meeting last week, nor do I personally particularly care, it was a good meeting, I am fine with that.

If you want to convince yourself R/R and guests are killing the sport confirmationbias will eventually lead you to believe you’re correct, even if it isn’t the case. Obsessing over guests and R/R is unhealthy just enjoy watching guys race around the track on a bike.

By the same token a lot a fans have stopped attending because of these points judging by what is said on forums and there are not enough new fans to take their place so it's a catch 22 situation whether the new fans are bothered or not.

[RobMcCaffery]

In the South East it would cost around £500 minimum. £10 or so per head would be good value if the fans were paying but it would be prohohibitive for. A promoter. Years ago Len Silver laid on a free coach from Stratford to Hackney , just a few miles which I used when I was still at school but it was a bit of an old banger and I don't think there are many like that today. More recently , until a few years ago Lakeside used to lay on a bus form the track to an Underground station somewhere but that was eventually cancelled as it wasn't cost effective.

There are still plenty of small bus and coach hire companies who could lay on a cheap bus like the one used by Hackney - obviously a newer 'banger' though. What helped the Hackney situation was that it was operated by Sampson Coaches, run by Peter Sampson, a former rider who went on to found Paradise Park, the home of the speedway museum.

 

It helps if the operator's a friend of the sport.

 

At the other end of the scale, one of the best-regarded operator of coaches in the UK is Parry's International which of course is well-known at Wolverhampton. Dave Parry was a Wolves junior who rode with Phil Crump at Crewe. There's no way you could describe one of his fine coaches as a banger though.

[TonyMac]

 

Surely if they enjoy the sport, they enjoy the sport….which is 4 guys going around a track on bikes. If you wanted to boil your head off with intricacies and politics you could convince yourself to despise any sport, thus leading yourself to wonder why you bothered in the first place. The vast majority of sport Football, Rugby, F1, Atheltics ( I could go on) they all have daft rules and political BS that many people don’t agree with….it doesn’t seem to overly impact the attendances of those sports.

 

Yes, of course very few newcomers will bother to ask about the intricacies of speedway on their first visit - as you say, initially they will hopefully be captivated by the thrills and spills and enjoy the friendly atmosphere generated by a family community.

 

But . . . . once they have been two or three times and decide they would like to follow their local team as a regular supporter, can you not imagine how dismayed and totally bemused they quickly become when they find out their new hero can't ride for his team that night, because he is riding elsewhere for another team?

 

And that his replacement is a guest from another team.

 

And the opponents of the new fan's team are also using one, maybe two, guests to cover their missing riders?

 

I'll leave you to explain it all away to them as they scratch their heads and decide speedway is too amateurish and a nonsense to them...

 

Your point about other sports is totally invalid in this case. Yes, all sports have their silly rules and idiosyncrasies. But no team sports played in the UK adopt a guest system as ludicrous as that which has blighted speedway for far too many years and continues to undermine it on a daily basis.

Edited August 3, 2015 by tmc

[ch958]

 

Surely if they enjoy the sport, they enjoy the sport….which is 4 guys going around a track on bikes. If you wanted to boil your head off with intricacies and politics you could convince yourself to despise any sport, thus leading yourself to wonder why you bothered in the first place. The vast majority of sport Football, Rugby, F1, Atheltics ( I could go on) they all have daft rules and political BS that many people don’t agree with….it doesn’t seem to overly impact the attendances of those sports.

 

you would need to drop any pretence of meaningful team and league competition and just run open meetings, pairs competitions, etc

[tigerowl]

.tp

 

That statement sums up the bankruptcy of you position. The best answer you can come up with is to imply I am happy with the set-up which is not what I said at all.

 

I am not happy with the set up but I live in the real world and I realise we need real world solutions to real world problems with the sport not knee jerk reactions. That means any idea that is put forward has to explain the financial side of things. I pointed out to you the plain fact that riders have to earn a decent living, but you are unable to explain how that would work in your scheme and the best you cann do is to start mudslinging and claim I am happy with things as they are.

 

The root of the problem is cheap airfares have for years made easier and cheaper to fly foreign riders in than to train riders of our own. There is a dire shortage of home grown riders in our leagues. The dramage there is already done and we have to start from w here we are now instead of moaning about it. The Hagon Shocks academy at Lakeside is starting to produce some talented young riders. That lis the sort of facility that has been missing for years but as they are only just reaching their early teens but it will be several years befor,e they leave school and/ or reach an acceptable league standard. In the meantime we have to manage with the few coming through the few other training facilities we have and there is no quick fix solution, only sticking plaster over the cracks.

 

The other problem is that because of the amount if foreign riders we have and better pay on the continent, plus the long GP season our fixture list has to be built round the GP/SWC / Swedish/Polish season. That is disastrous for the home fixture list but there seems to be little we can do about it because many fans want to see top riders.

 

Those are the two basic problems that need to be overcome before anything else can be properly sorted. I would be interested to see any intelligent suggestions with the financial side properly costed but I haven't seen any yet.

 

I apologise if you thought I was mudslinging with my comments. That wasn't my intention and, again, I am sorry that I got the wrong end of the stick with your views.

 

Costing an alternative system is difficult as so much of speedway in shrouded in secrecy. We don't know the attendance figures and we don't know what the riders are paid and what sponsorship deals are done. However, what we can all see at most of our tracks that crowds are in a downward spiral.

 

Reading all the comments above, it seems that some people do just go for the thrill of the racing and will keep going no matter what. That does wear off for some though and lots of people I know go because they support a team. It is this that is being eroded.

 

Regionalisation has been suggested and this could work. There are hardly any travelling fans at speedway theses days and some clubs rely on local derbies and the problem is, everyone has different ideas as to how things should go forward in the future.

 

So, I can't submit any costings because the figures aren't there to do it but we need to stop alienating the hardcore fans, because that is all we have left.

[The White Knight]

 

Yes, of course very few newcomers will bother to ask about the intricacies of speedway on their first visit - as you say, initially they will hopefully be captivated by the thrills and spills and enjoy the friendly atmosphere generated by a family community.

 

But . . . . once they have been two or three times and decide they would like to follow their local team as a regular supporter, can you not imagine how dismayed and totally bemused they quickly become when they find out their new hero can't ride for his team that night, because he is riding elsewhere for another team?

 

And that his replacement is a guest from another team.

 

And the opponents of the new fan's team are also using one, maybe two, guests to cover their missing riders?

 

I'll leave you to explain it all away to them as they scratch their heads and decide speedway is too amateurish and a nonsense to them...

 

Your point about other sports is totally invalid in this case. Yes, all sports have their silly rules and idiosyncrasies. But no team sports played in the UK adopt a guest system as ludicrous as that which has blighted speedway for far too many years and continues to undermine it on a daily basis.

Well said Tony.

 

"There are none so blind as those who will not see".

 

John Heywood circa: 1546.

[sparkafag]

 

Yes, of course very few newcomers will bother to ask about the intricacies of speedway on their first visit - as you say, initially they will hopefully be captivated by the thrills and spills and enjoy the friendly atmosphere generated by a family community.

 

But . . . . once they have been two or three times and decide they would like to follow their local team as a regular supporter, can you not imagine how dismayed and totally bemused they quickly become when they find out their new hero can't ride for his team that night, because he is riding elsewhere for another team?

 

And that his replacement is a guest from another team.

 

And the opponents of the new fan's team are also using one, maybe two, guests to cover their missing riders?

 

I'll leave you to explain it all away to them as they scratch their heads and decide speedway is too amateurish and a nonsense to them...

 

Your point about other sports is totally invalid in this case. Yes, all sports have their silly rules and idiosyncrasies. But no team sports played in the UK adopt a guest system as ludicrous as that which has blighted speedway for far too many years and continues to undermine it on a daily basis.

Quite easy really.

 

It's a sport that's pretty expensive to compete in, thus the number of competitors are limited. If a guy gets injured they draught someone in, it's like a temporary loan system in football...don't worry though it's still a guy on a bike going around a track like the rest of them.

Edited August 3, 2015 by sparkafag

[TonyMac]

It would be interesting to look at a 'league table' of guests usage over the course of a season in both the EL & PL . . . which teams use the most and the fewest, and which riders get the most guests bookings.

 

Also, while we're at it, a table highlighting all doubling-up activity, showing which riders ride for two teams the most in one season.

 

Maybe Speedway Star could get one of their stattos to compile these tables for them and update them on a weekly basis. It will take some keeping tabs on, mind. A full-time job, probably.

 

Most of us agree that guests are a joke that speedway needs to rid itself of one way or another, or at least start to seriously reduce the dependency on guest riders, but such a table would help to focus a few minds in the BSPA and, dare we hope, hasten some kind of solution to an age-old problem.

 

John Berry will be spinning in his grave.

Edited August 3, 2015 by tmc

[orion]

 

The first question I asked when I had a look at a programme was 'why is this rider in italics when the rest are in ordinary print?'

 

I took a couple of newbies with me a couple of years back and the observant one asked why, when the other 5 are in identical leathers, is one in a different set and wearing a bib? He hadn't noticed there were seven names in the programme but only six riders out there yet!

So when the crowds were massive none of that stuff happened ?

[E I Addio]

 

I apologise if you thought I was mudslinging with my comments. That wasn't my intention and, again, I am sorry that I got the wrong end of the stick with your views.

 

Costing an alternative system is difficult as so much of speedway in shrouded in secrecy. We don't know the attendance figures and we don't know what the riders are paid and what sponsorship deals are done. However, what we can all see at most of our tracks that crowds are in a downward spiral.

 

Reading all the comments above, it seems that some people do just go for the thrill of the racing and will keep going no matter what. That does wear off for some though and lots of people I know go because they support a team. It is this that is being eroded.

 

Regionalisation has been suggested and this could work. There are hardly any travelling fans at speedway theses days and some clubs rely on local derbies and the problem is, everyone has different ideas as to how things should go forward in the future.

 

So, I can't submit any costings because the figures aren't there to do it but we need to stop alienating the hardcore fans, because that is all we have left.

 

 

the highlighted part is the nub of the problem with this type of discussion, and another problem is that these threads attract too many ex-fans whose only remedy is to turn the clock back.. I agree it is tedious when sides turn up packed with guests and that is a question those in charge need to address when it comes to next years fixture list, but there are a plethora of other problems and the trouble is that by solving one thing you make another worse..

 

To my mind the biggest single cause of aggravation this year has been erratic fixtures- on one occasion one home meeting in a five week period followed by three in eight days. When there is no fluency people find other things to do, and the casual fan who is happy to go once or twice a month is not going to go three times in eight days. That is all due to Sky and the continental fixture list..

 

One major change I would like to see and will put out for discussion/thoughts is to reduce the Speedway World Cup to once every four years like Soccer Cricket and Rugby. That would free up two weeks of the fixture list for other domestic meetings. Also reduce the GP's to one a month (say six per season) which would also be a big help to fixtures and rider availability.. Cant see either happening while the TV companies have such a tight grip on the situation, but it would make a big difference to domestic speedway.

[The White Knight]

 

 

the highlighted part is the nub of the problem with this type of discussion, and another problem is that these threads attract too many ex-fans whose only remedy is to turn the clock back.. I agree it is tedious when sides turn up packed with guests and that is a question those in charge need to address when it comes to next years fixture list, but there are a plethora of other problems and the trouble is that by solving one thing you make another worse..

 

To my mind the biggest single cause of aggravation this year has been erratic fixtures- on one occasion one home meeting in a five week period followed by three in eight days. When there is no fluency people find other things to do, and the casual fan who is happy to go once or twice a month is not going to go three times in eight days. That is all due to Sky and the continental fixture list..

 

One major change I would like to see and will put out for discussion/thoughts is to reduce the Speedway World Cup to once every four years like Soccer Cricket and Rugby. That would free up two weeks of the fixture list for other domestic meetings. Also reduce the GP's to one a month (say six per season) which would also be a big help to fixtures and rider availability.. Cant see either happening while the TV companies have such a tight grip on the situation, but it would make a big difference to domestic speedway.

Actually - I think your suggestions regarding the Speedway World Cup and the GPs is are excellent - the reason I 'Liked' your Post.

 

In the interim years between World Cups perhaps an World Best Pairs Championship could be organised. Every four years a World Cup and every four years a World Best Pairs with a two year interval between both. That would also increase the speciality factor.

 

As regards the GPs - that will never change as long as BSI and to a lesser extent SKY have their grubby little fingers in our Sport.