Redcar V Somerset Thursday 9th July

[arthur cross]

Hopefully Thursday's clanger finally spells the end of Dave Dowling's refereeing career ... he's been a loyal servant to speedway for many years but that's not enough on its own to justify him having been allowed to remain a referee way beyond his sell-by date for that important responsibility.

 

I've seen him provide holiday-cover as Scunthorpe's Clerk of the Course so there's no reason why he (or speedway as a whole) couldn't channel his enthusiasm into being the roving holiday-cover for that role at several tracks within easy reach of his Bradford base.

 

He baffled absolutely everybody (riders, managers, spectators, the whole lot !!) with his handling of the Newcastle-Redcar League Cup meeting a few months ago and he's always been utterly hopeless when it comes to crossing his fingers and hoping the weather stays ok for a rain-threatened meeting when it would make much better financial sense to call it off ... I've even seen him abandoning a meeting after one bend (yes, not even a lap or a race !!) after being ridiculously optimistic that the weather would work out fine.

 

I don't often disagree with "racers and royals" (and we've swapped notes on various incidents in the past) but on this occasion I think the right decision has been reached to let the result stand because any protest came well after the several windows in which it could correctly have been made (firstly pre-meeting, secondly once Kus was declared on a tactical for heat 8 and thirdly once he'd put the 8-1 on the board but before the tapes rose for heat 9).

 

There'll be plenty of football matches in the upcoming season where the ref and his assistants make what's easily proven by replays to be a clanger (striker at least a yard offside when he scores, foul committed a yard outside the 18-yard box but penalty awarded, handball awarded when it's clearly only hit the defender's chest or face, etc) but everyone accepts that unless there are very exceptional circumstances, the clanger stands unless it's immediately corrected before the game continues into its next phase.

 

Indeed, both NFL and rugby league regard it as a normal aspect of the game for the attacking team to hurry into their next play and get it underway if they reckon they're getting away with something dodgy on their previous play ... once that next play's underway, the previous dodginess becomes irrelevant and it's totally accepted that it's the defensive team's responsibility to get the ref to delay the action in such situations.

 

Somerset had ample chances to avoid being on the wrong end of that illegal 8-1 and didn't take them ... that's their lesson to take from this omnishambles and given how easy it is for the general public to look up the current greensheets on the BSPA website, it's not much to expect every team manager to double-check the opposition's figurework in the final moments before a meeting even when there's a late and unexpected case of r/r like Jan Graversen's absence on this occasion.

 

If you can't cope with controversial results occasionally skewering what you think should be the correct league table, then don't get involved in any sport in the first place because you're bound to end up crying at some stage.

 

Finally, a question for "lucifer sam" ... if Scunthorpe (or Oxford in the past) innocently benefit from a refereeing clanger, how quickly do you insist the scoreline must be corrected to reflect the situation ? !!

 

By all means whinge about other results affecting your team providing you're also keen to hand back any presents you've similarly received !!

Edited July 12, 2015 by arthur cross

[Blackadder]

the pairs and now this. what,s next ? kurtZ breaking the tapes in the P.L.R.C.? DONT WORRY, IT WONT BE DAVE DOWLING DOING THE REFFING. OR WILL IT !!

 

No, the PLRC has been allocated to someone else.

[MANSE]

To all team managers the message which has been sent out is never trust the programme which is put in front of you.

[ch958]

 

HT, yes there were mistakes all around, after Redcar's original error with the averages.

 

And I agree, we have been given a full explanation of what happened in this case.

 

But I still think it really does send out very much the wrong message in allowing an illegal ride to stand. And Redcar now have three PL points that they should not have.

 

All the best

Rob

 

there are rules about the timing of protests

are you suggesting people should be able to protest any time they want

allowing protests at any time would be sending the wrong message

No, the right outcome was arrived at, however perhaps warnings or fnes should have been levied

otherwise the topic is over really

[RobMcCaffery]

While there clearly was incompetence shown by many in this case it does highlight how twisted the Speedway Regulations have become when referees and team managers can't apply them.....

[Halifaxtiger]

there are rules about the timing of protests

are you suggesting people should be able to protest any time they want

allowing protests at any time would be sending the wrong message

No, the right outcome was arrived at, however perhaps warnings or fnes should have been levied

otherwise the topic is over really

Actually, and at the risk of sounding contrary, to me an illegal ride shouldn't be allowed to stand.

 

But for that to be the case present regulations need to be amended, so the decision is correct.

 

There should be a time limit on protests but it should be longer than 4 hours.

 

 

While there clearly was incompetence shown by many in this case it does highlight how twisted the Speedway Regulations have become when referees and team managers can't apply them.....

In some cases, you're right.

 

This one seems pretty simple to me, though.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

I think the whole reason the rules are as they are is to avoid the situations seen in past years where results have been amended days, weeks , even months later.

 

That puts the onus on teams to know their stuff beforehand and not rely on hindsight once theyve lost.

[cheekycobra]

The teams battling Redcar for league positions have been cheated.

No they haven't. If the tables were turned and Somerset were given the win, could you say Edinburgh, Peterborough, Glasgow etc would have been cheated. In the heat in question Redcar would probably have gained a 8-1 with either Kus or Robson in it. At the end of the day Redcar will finish mid to bottom of the table. where teams finish in and around them is irrelevant.

[Alan_Jones]

The regulations expressly forbid teams agreeing to waive the rules regarding rider line ups, putting the onus on the referee to see that it doesn't happen. it seems strange that there's no means of redress when all three parties unwittingly collude in the breaking of that rule.

[northyorksbear]

I think the only people to come out of this with any credibility are the SCB - they have responded quickly and come to the only decision available to them. For anyone to say their decision is the wrong one is ludicrous. Whether you agree with the rules or not they have followed them, imagine the feedback if they had compounded issue by making up some other ruling!

 

As events have turned out Redcar have potentially benefitted, primarily as Kus won the heat, if he had not finished would we be debating Somerset having benefitted as Redcar should have used Robson!

 

As regards cheating, or teams potentially trying similar tactics, you really are living in cloud cuckoo land. To cheat implies knowing what you are doing is wrong and intentionally trying to gain an advantage. If any team tries to do this they are banking on two highly unlikely events 1) the ref is totally incompetent and allows it and 2) the opposing team manager is totally incompetent and doesn't object! Now how likely is that to happen???

 

Final point - yes I support Redcar, but am looking at this incident impartially, if it were reversed I would be well cheesed off , but still see the correct SCB decision was reached and more annoyed with our TM for not making a big fuss at the time. I do wonder if many of the posters are coming at this with their own teams interests in their first thoughts (not looking at anyone in particular!!)

[erimus11]

I have already posted near enough the same as this earlier in the thread totalling agreeing that all three parties take responsibility. However, that is almost irrelevant now the mistake has been spotted and something can be done about it - instead a blind eye has been turned to it. It's a standard now that cheating will be tolerated and completely acceptable

 

Give it a rest Najjer with the continual inference that Redcar cheated. We all know what happened, why it happened and we now know the final decision. Unless I've missed it there has not been a direct accusation of cheating except by yourself.

Your bitterness is clouding any rational objections and comments you make.

Redcar "done wrong", the referee "done wrong", Somerset didn't do much wrong but didn't help their own cause.

The result stands, life goes on, speedway stutters from one calamity to another, but nobody died thank god.

Get over it fella and chill !

[Najjer]

The word cheat is defined as being "to act unfairly to gain an advantage" - I'm not saying Redcar did this on purpose, that is quite clearly not the case.

 

Redcar have undoubtedly gained an unfair advantage from this.

[cheekycobra]

I think some posters are taking this opportunity to do no more than build up there post count, and will continue to go around in the same circles for the near future.

[coomie]

As both managers knew (even if the info might not of been right)before the meeting who could take rides its no good later appealing,up to both to have correct info before they start,can't see how result can be changed after even if it's not right,teams need to do there home work!

[Creekmoor Pirate]

This decision leaves me totally pissxd off with speedway . Not the first time Dowling has stitched Somerset up . Another nail in the speedway coffin .

[racers and royals]

Surely this situation should be classed as bringing "speedway into Disrepute" - after all we are talking about a match taking place on July 9th exactly a week after Redcar hosted Scunthorpe where the correct July averages were applied.

Redcar should be fined a substantial sum and the referee should be suspended for 28 days.

Edited July 12, 2015 by racers and royals

[The White Knight]

 

HT, yes there were mistakes all around, after Redcar's original error with the averages.

 

And I agree, we have been given a full explanation of what happened in this case.

 

But I still think it really does send out very much the wrong message in allowing an illegal ride to stand. And Redcar now have three PL points that they should not have.

 

All the best

Rob

I cannot be bothered to trail back through all of the Posts on this Thread but I am sure I read that the Redcar Team Manager had queried this issue with both the Referee and the Somerset Management. If this is so, Redcar have done nothing wrong, on the contrary they tried to do the right thing. If the Referee was satisfied and the Somerset Management were satisfied - you can hardly blame Redcar or their Management Team.

 

The correct Decision was reached allowing the Result to stand.

 

Surely this situation should be classed as bringing "speedway into Disrupt" - after all we are talking about a match taking place on July 9th exactly a week after Redcar hosted Scunthorpe where the correct July averages were applied.

Redcar should be fined a substantial sum and the referee should be suspended for 28 days.

????? Is it not disrupted enough already? :shock:

[racers and royals]

I cannot be bothered to trail back through all of the Posts on this Thread but I am sure I read that the Redcar Team Manager had queried this issue with both the Referee and the Somerset Management. If this is so, Redcar have done nothing wrong, on the contrary they tried to do the right thing. If the Referee was satisfied and the Somerset Management were satisfied - you can hardly blame Redcar or their Management Team.

 

The correct Decision was reached allowing the Result to stand.

 

????? Is it not disrupted enough already? :shock:

I`m not certain the Redcar team manager was telling "the truth and nothing but the truth" in his account of the pre-meeting discussion. If there were any queries about the RR and Kus eligibility it surely would have been checked.

Spelling now edited -wrong word altogether .

[lucifer sam]

Finally, a question for "lucifer sam" ... if Scunthorpe (or Oxford in the past) innocently benefit from a refereeing clanger, how quickly do you insist the scoreline must be corrected to reflect the situation ? !!

 

By all means whinge about other results affecting your team providing you're also keen to hand back any presents you've similarly received !!

 

It was Reading vs Oxford in 1997. The Oxford team manager made a mistake in replacing a non-injured reserve with a supplementary reserve in Heat 1, the ref sanctioned it, Oxford won 46-44 on the night, the Reading team manager protested, and a couple of days later, it was announced the scoreline had been changed to 45-45. As an Oxford fan I wasn't best pleased at the time, but any fury was directed towards those who had made the error, as opposed to the Reading management. Fortunately, the Oxford team manager was changed the following winter.

 

Why bring that up now? Well the Reading team manager, one of the most astute in the business, is one of those contributing to this thread.

 

But that's an example of how it should be. You make a mistake; you get penalised for it. An illegal ride should not be allowed to stand, otherwise it makes a mockery of the sport.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited July 12, 2015 by lucifer sam

[racers and royals]

 

It was Reading vs Oxford in 1997. The Oxford team manager made a mistake in replacing a non-injured reserve with a supplementary reserve in Heat 1, the ref sanctioned it, Oxford won 46-44 on the night, the Reading team manager protested, and a couple of days later, it was announced the scoreline had been changed to 45-45. As an Oxford fan I wasn't best pleased at the time, but any fury was directed towards those who had made the error, as opposed to the Reading management. Fortunately, the Oxford team manager was changed the following winter.

 

Why bring that up now? Well the Reading team manager, one of the most astute in the business, is one of those contributing to this thread.

 

But that's an example of how it should be. You make a mistake; you get penalised for it. An illegal ride should not be allowed to stand, otherwise it makes a mockery of the sport.

 

All the best

Rob

One slight difference Rob- I believe the Reading Team Manager was heard to say " they can`t do that" but was too late to stop it prior to the race-and immediately protested at the race conclusion.