The White Knight Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 Should go in the bar then Surely not everyone could get in. Or perhaps they could these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruffdiamond Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 Surely not everyone could get in. Or perhaps they could these days. Yeah, to the bar and served straight away and choice of seats 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Lee Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Nothing wrong with the existing set up apart fron how far back from the tape some (many!) riders are. The regs do have a distance stated as a requirement (7.5cm?) but many are 4 times that back - often drawing back after the start marshall has stepped forward before creeping forward to gain advantage without touching the tape. Perhaps what is needed is a new reg whereby any rider drawing back after the start marshall has moved is punished as if the have touched the tape. Yep, that would do it. As I said, weak marshalling at the start is the cause of most of the problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I'd hate to see tape touching re-introduced, one of the best things they ever did was get rid of it. Now at least you generally get four riders leaving the gate in a position to compete for the first corner. Generally it used to be two at best because two or three would get caught out. I'm with Robert Lee in the Start Marshalls can stop the problems completely with the help of a strong ref. The Marshall puts them in place and anybody moving backwards by even a fraction is disqualified. You wouldn't deprive the public of too many four man races once the riders realised they can't earn while sat in the pits! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice Of Reason Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Maybe you'd care to enlighten us how a starting marshall is supposed to keep an eye on all four riders; particularly when he is looking towards his left (or right) pulling a particular rider forward? Maybe only use starting marshalls that have eyes up their @rse? And how is adopting the status quo ever get over the problems of perceived 'unsatisfactory starts/deemed flyers'? As for riders slow away under the old system. Barry Thomas springs to mind. He couldn't gate to save his life and, whilst often being the bloke at the back entering the first bend, he was rarely in that position coming out of the second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
van wolfswinkel Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) I really can't make out why we have an interval White Knight. It's just an excuse for promoters to drag out proceedings; in the vain attempt to make the happy-clappy automatons believe that they've had their money's worth - by taking two hours to provide 15 poxy minutes worth of actual entertainment. And at an average price of around £18, we're led to believe that its good value! Speaking of which, the cost of the aforementioned meetings at Hackney cost (referring to a programme) £2.50 admission in 1982. Basing that price upon The Financial Times inflation calculator, £2.50 in 1982 is worth £8.57 today. So, in effect, we are getting fleeced MORE THAN DOUBLE what admission used to cost. Added to which in The British League, we saw the World's cream of the crop; not the (cheaper waged) Premier League fill-ins dished up today within this so called 'Elite League'. Seriously, its no wonder that this once great sport is now on the bones of its @rse, is it! Can remember in the 70s cost the same for cinema, football at Highbury, and Swindon speedway...now it's 7 quid flicks, 17 quid at Swindon Stadium(no seats until the new stadium), 25 quid at Swindon Town for League 1 fare. Cant afford ticket for The Arsenal thesedays. Fiver for a car at Epsom Downs orse racing, and 15 quid for a seat at Gloucester Rugby. Edited July 12, 2015 by haydon hat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Maybe you'd care to enlighten us how a starting marshall is supposed to keep an eye on all four riders; particularly when he is looking towards his left (or right) pulling a particular rider forward? Maybe only use starting marshalls that have eyes up their @rse? And how is adopting the status quo ever get over the problems of perceived 'unsatisfactory starts/deemed flyers'? As for riders slow away under the old system. Barry Thomas springs to mind. He couldn't gate to save his life and, whilst often being the bloke at the back entering the first bend, he was rarely in that position coming out of the second. I'm really sorry that we can't all have your superior knowledge and expertise but I assumed that by mentioning the ref as well it was blindingly obvious what I meant, however I will explain. The Start marshall calls the riders into the tapes and is strict about putting them in position. While he does this the ref (who is sat some distance away and therefore is able to watch all 4 riders)makes sure that nobody move backwards at any time. Hey presto!! we have 4 riders sat in position and unable to move backwards so problem solved. Now that I've enlightened you perhaps you could explain to me why a decent, properly adjusted clutch won't allow you to sit still at the start. For further education and enlightenment perhaps you recognise that sarcasm will generally be met with sarcasm. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice Of Reason Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I don't have superior knowledge; suffice to say that I do know, having spoken to the two guys at Lakeside, that a starting marshall's job is potentially just a tad more difficult than you clearly perceive it to be. Moreover, how is this 'no backward movement' going to work in a practical (not a theoretic) way? At what stage of the starting process can't a rider move back? How is a rider meant to position his bike into the material on the start line, etc? As for your clutch question - I assume that you've never realised that they wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Moreover, how is this 'no backward movement' going to work in a practical (not a theoretic) way? At what stage of the starting process can't a rider move back? How is a rider meant to position his bike into the material on the start line, etc? After the green light comes on would be my guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice Of Reason Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 After the green light comes on would be my guess.Green lights only come on Grachan when all 4 riders are stationary; and in not less than 1.5 seconds thereafter, tapes are released. To this end, I can hardly imagine any rider moving backwards at this stage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I don't have superior knowledge; suffice to say that I do know, having spoken to the two guys at Lakeside, that a starting marshall's job is potentially just a tad more difficult than you clearly perceive it to be. Moreover, how is this 'no backward movement' going to work in a practical (not a theoretic) way? At what stage of the starting process can't a rider move back? How is a rider meant to position his bike into the material on the start line, etc? As for your clutch question - I assume that you've never realised that they wear. Oh if I'd known you'd spoken to a start marshall I would have realised how much more knowledge you have than I possibly could. I'll try again, once the start marshall has called them to the tapes the referee doesn't allow them to roll backwards. Not sure why that is so difficult to understand in theory or practice. Having raced motorcycles of various types on and off for 44 years and still going I have a reasonable understanding of clutches and their behaviour when in all sorts of condition. Considering how much time and money Speedway riders spend on clutches I have to say that in my opinion there is no reason for them to not sit still if they had to. You will at times have a clutch drag but that's a mechanical fault like any other so if you can't sit still it's a breakdown. Besides which in your haste to ridicule people you said that anybody who thought it possible to sit still on a race bike didn't have a clue, no mention of that only applying to a knackered clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Lee Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Maybe you'd care to enlighten us how a starting marshall is supposed to keep an eye on all four riders; particularly when he is looking towards his left (or right) pulling a particular rider forward? Maybe only use starting marshalls that have eyes up their @rse? And how is adopting the status quo ever get over the problems of perceived 'unsatisfactory starts/deemed flyers'? As for riders slow away under the old system. Barry Thomas springs to mind. He couldn't gate to save his life and, whilst often being the bloke at the back entering the first bend, he was rarely in that position coming out of the second. OK, have two or more start marshals. Or use chocks behind the wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice Of Reason Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Why not do away with start marshalls all together, and just have a sniper in the refs box? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Never did anybody choose such an ill fitting user name! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbuck Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Most of the races which are halted after a rider has made a so-called "perfect " are stopped because the referee has seen the rider "creeping" and wants to avoid a prolonged delay whilst the broken tapes are replaced - so he raises the gate and straight away puts on the red light. The way to combat this in my opinion, is for the tapes to be released not by the referee, but by a starter who should be positioned where he cannot see the riders and the riders cannot see him, and on a signal from the referee that the riders are ready, he would raise the tapes, varying the time he waits, from race to race. The referee can then give all his attention to watching for movement on the line - and any rider who moves before the race is started should be excluded with no warning. Additionally, when a rider is excluded for a starting offence (or for failing to meet the 2 minute time allowance for that matter), there should be no reserve replacement or 15 metre handicap. At present, many riders consider a rolling start is worth a try but with this system, they would soon latch on that the risk was too great and that they would be liable to a pasting from their team manager when they returned to the pits instead of being encouraged to try it on again as they often are now. As several posters have said, there is no need for new rules - just some consistent firm action from the referees. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyretrax Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Now let me get this straight. You can sit still at the gate, drop the clutch, duck under the tapes......ref stoppes race, unsatisfactory start. Or you can sit still at the gate, drop the clutch, catch the tapes on the peak of your helmet......ref stoppes race, unsatisfactory start. Touch the tapes and you're out end of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 The way to combat this in my opinion, is for the tapes to be released not by the referee, but by a starter who should be positioned where he cannot see the riders and the riders cannot see him, and on a signal from the referee that the riders are ready, he would raise the tapes, varying the time he waits, from race to race. The referee can then give all his attention to watching for movement on the line - and any rider who moves before the race is started should be excluded with no warning. How hard is it for a referee to press a button whilst watching the starting grid at the same time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAST GATER Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) IMO there are two issues here starting and the riders after a false start with regard to the prolonged time wasting ,I eccept that the starts will never change now and we re stuck with this method .The area that needs to be addressed is the restart which seems to take for ever in most cases. There needs to be a crack down on ALL riders with regards to this and examples made whoever they are,unless broken straight back to tapes .If they are broken parked( not touched in ayway by mechanics ) ready to go the moment the tapes are pulled down and a 1min rule to be at the tapes ready to race the pit gate should remain closed at all times unless a rider is excluded fo him to leave the track. Edited July 13, 2015 by FAST GATER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruffdiamond Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Illuminated digital clock to countdown the 2 mins,,, gets to zero then green light on, a blindfolded assistant in the refs box to press the tapes release button,,, anyone not ready, tough, anyone breaks the tapes, out,,, might take a while to get used but sure it'll work once the riders comprehend it,,, 2 minutes, green light, go, or be ready to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) How hard is it for a referee to press a button whilst watching the starting grid at the same time? Depends if it is a man or woman ref. It shouldn't be difficult at all but men can't multi-task can they? ......FAST GATER......There needs to be a crack down on ALL riders with regards to this and examples made whoever they are,unless broken straight back to tapes .If they are broken parked( not touched in anyway by mechanics ) ready to go the moment the tapes are pulled down and a 1min rule to be at the tapes ready to race the pit gate should remain closed at all times unless a rider is excluded for him to leave the track. Happened at Coventry on Friday during the Bees v Wolves match. Pit gate was opened and Ashley Morris stepped a couple of feet off the track and was excluded. Must admit it has been 99% better at Brandon this year with the new ruling and that's the first time I've seen the gate opened prior to a re-run. Begs the question if that's one way to get a rider from the opposition excluded. Edited July 13, 2015 by Gemini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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