arnieg Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Here is what wiki says on the 'Stainless Flag' - the intermediate design between the original confederate flag and the 'battle flag of the army of North virginia (as per Pirate Nick's post.). This was the first one with the iconic design During the solicitation for a second Confederate national flag, there were many different types of designs that were proposed, nearly all making use of the battle flag, which by 1863 had become well-known and popular among those living in the Confederacy. The new design was specified by the Confederate Congress to be a white field "with the union (now used as the battle flag) to be a square of two-thirds the width of the flag, having the ground red; thereupon a broad saltire of blue, bordered with white, and emblazoned with mullets or five-pointed stars, corresponding in number to that of the Confederate States."[20] The flag is also known as "the Stainless Banner" and was designed by William T. Thompson, a newspaper editor and writer based in Savannah, Georgia, with assistance from William Ross Postell, a Confederate blockade runner.[1][2][4][5][6][7] The nickname "stainless" referred to the pure white field which took up a large part of the flag's design, although W.T. Thompson, the flag's designer, referred to his design as "The White Man's Flag".[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] In referring to the white field that comprised a large part of the flag's design elements, Thompson stated that its color symbolized the "supremacy of the white man":[8][9][10] Second national flag(May 1, 1863 – March 4, 1865[19]), 2:1 ratio Second national flag, also used as the Confederate navy's ensign, 1.5:1 ratio As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.— William T. Thompson, Daily Morning News, (April 23, 1863)[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][21] The official Confederate flag act of 1864 did not, however, formally state what the white-colored field officially symbolized and thus, many Confederates at the time offered various interpretations. The Confederate Congress debated whether the white field should have a blue stripe and whether it should be bordered in red. As the flag's designer, W.T. Thompson opposed adding any such additional elements to the white field, feeling it would compromise his intended design.[1][2][4][5][6][7][9][10] William Miles delivered a speech supporting the simple white design that was eventually approved. He argued that the battle flag must be used, but for a national flag it was necessary to emblazon it, but as simply as possible, with a plain white field.[22] In May 1863, when Thompson discovered that his design had been chosen by the Confederate Congress to become the Confederacy's next national flag, he was content. He praised his design as symbolizing the Confederacy's ideology and its cause of "a superior race," as well as for bearing little resemblance to the U.S. flag, which he called the "infamous banner of the Yankee vandals." Writing for Savannah's Daily Morning News, Thompson stated: As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals.— William T. Thompson, Daily Morning News, (May 4, 1863)[1][2][4][5][6][7][9][10] The flags that were actually produced by the Richmond Clothing Depot used the 1.5:1 ratio adopted for the Confederate navy's battle ensign, rather than the official 2:1 ratio.[11] Initial reaction to the second national flag was favorable, but over time it became criticized for being "too white." The Columbia-based Daily South Carolinian observed that it was essentially a battle flag upon a flag of truce and might send a mixed message. Military officers also voiced complaints about the flag being too white, for various reasons, such as the danger of being mistaken for a flag of truce, especially on naval ships, and that it was too easily soiled.[13] Addressing these concerns, the flag's designer, W.T. Thompson, stated that the battle cross in the canton was sufficient enough to distinguish the flag from that of one of truce and that adding any additional elements would make the flag look too much like the U.S. one, which he scornfully referred to as "the Yankee flag."[4][5][6][7][9][10] Despite these complaints, the second national flag was applauded by some for its design invoking Confederate ideology. George William Bagby praised the flag, referring to the saltire in the flag's canton as the "Southern Cross," as did others at the time, and stating that it embodied "the destiny of the Southern master and his African slave", expressing the desire that some Confederates held of spreading slavery into Latin America.[3] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanF Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) The Flag has been around for a long time Alan......when did the black people of southern USA decide it was a symbol of racism? If they always have, then fair enough, but if it is a relatively recent thing, then 'someone' has jumped on some kind of band wagon. Always been divisive. The recent troubles simply brought it to international attention. Again though, whether it matters that a speedway team in a country 3000 miles away uses it is not for me to say. Edited January 28, 2016 by AlanF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Always been divisive. The recent troubles simply brought it to international attention. Again though, whether it matters that a speedway team in a country 3000 miles away uses it is not for me to say. Fair enough Alan. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piston197 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) if you google "rebel emblem images" nearly every image has a picture of the Rebel Alliance flag from the Star wars series, nice design, but think there may be copyright problems if this was used by Somerset ? Edited January 28, 2016 by piston197 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) if you google "rebel emblem images" nearly every image has a picture of the Rebel Alliance flag from the Star wars series, nice design, but think there may be copyright problems if this was used by Somerset ? Copyright or perhaps trademark infringement. Edited January 28, 2016 by Ghostwalker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 One could also ask the question as to why the use of the flag gained popularity at roughl the same time as the black civil rights movement in the south?Coincidence? Accepting the above Iris.....but how long have Somerset used the flag as their symbol? I am not sure how long, but it is many years, probably around 15 years. Why hasn't it been brought up before? Racism hasn't just been invented! Whichever way one defends Somerset's likely innocent use of the flag as a club symbol, the pressure on the club to drop it's use, is likely to be too much. As someone else said, they can't afford the bad publicity. Perhaps the Somerset 'Rebel' symbol could be related to a modern day British rebel. Perhaps a caricature of a Punk Rocker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Accepting the above Iris.....but how long have Somerset used the flag as their symbol? I am not sure how long, but it is many years, probably around 15 years. Why hasn't it been brought up before? You haven't read through the thread Ray,as I have already shown it has been brought up before.In 2009 at least.I remember discussions on the subject,quite possibly not the 2009 thread.That was just the one that I found within a minute of doing a search....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 You haven't read through the thread Ray,as I have already shown it has been brought up before.In 2009 at least.I remember discussions on the subject,quite possibly not the 2009 thread.That was just the one that I found within a minute of doing a search....... Ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conkers in Gravy Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Putting the politics to one side, maybe Somerset would change their logo to something more relevant to a team in the south west of England. Using the Confederate battle flag is pretty naff and actually quite lazy. Why not use the coat of arms of the Duke of Monmouth who led an army of Somerset rebels in an attempt to overthrow King James II in 1685? This is a simplified version of the coat of arms -it sort of puts me in mind of an old Canterbury race jacket. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=duke+of+monmouth+arms&client=tablet-android-samsung&biw=1280&bih=800&prmd=ismvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVt9W1187KAhWL7RQKHTdhB44Q_AUIBigB#imgrc=RZTDnAiPQGDP5M%3A The uprising ended in defeat at Sedgemoor, which may put folk off, but the American Civil War didn't exactly end well for the Confederacy either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Nick Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Putting the politics to one side, maybe Somerset would change their logo to something more relevant to a team in the south west of England. Using the Confederate battle flag is pretty naff and actually quite lazy. Why not use the coat of arms of the Duke of Monmouth who led an army of Somerset rebels in an attempt to overthrow King James II in 1685? This is a simplified version of the coat of arms -it sort of puts me in mind of an old Canterbury race jacket. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=duke+of+monmouth+arms&client=tablet-android-samsung&biw=1280&bih=800&prmd=ismvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVt9W1187KAhWL7RQKHTdhB44Q_AUIBigB#imgrc=RZTDnAiPQGDP5M%3A The uprising ended in defeat at Sedgemoor, which may put folk off, but the American Civil War didn't exactly end well for the Confederacy either. They Have. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=duke+of+monmouth+arms&client=tablet-android-samsung&biw=1280&bih=800&prmd=ismvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVt9W1187KAhWL7RQKHTdhB44Q_AUIBigB#imgrc=HXP1qxC2DkD3LM%3A 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conkers in Gravy Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 They Have. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=duke+of+monmouth+arms&client=tablet-android-samsung&biw=1280&bih=800&prmd=ismvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVt9W1187KAhWL7RQKHTdhB44Q_AUIBigB#imgrc=HXP1qxC2DkD3LM%3A That's the arms of the Duke of Marlborough who put down the rebellion, although at the time he was just John Churchill. He gained his dukedom ironically for his part in deposing James a couple of years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reviresco Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 As Pirate Nick has alluded to, Somerset have already announced a change of team logo and it was this announcement on 19 January that sparked this thread back to life. It seems that some people may have missed this announcement: http://www.somersetrebels.co/news.php?extend.1640 They are retaining the 'Rebels' nickname, but have changed the logo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Nick Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 That's the arms of the Duke of Marlborough who put down the rebellion, although at the time he was just John Churchill. He gained his dukedom ironically for his part in deposing James a couple of years later.Oops. Identifying coats of arms is always hazardous with dukes 😉 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reviresco Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Oops. Identifying coats of arms is always hazardous with dukes Identifying my coat after an evening at the Duke's Arms is always hazardous... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee jay Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 they could have gone with an image of one of the soldiers of the time , think it might have looked better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reviresco Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 they could have gone with an image of one of the soldiers of the time , think it might have looked better. IMO, they probably wanted to move away from any logo associated with guns or violence and went down the route of a mythical creature, associated with the local area, that didn't breathe fire but spat poison... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedibee Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Copyright or perhaps trademark infringement. Oh well , its better to feed a few terminally offended then . rather than get in trouble with the movie industry over copyrights etc , just keep the current one everyone wins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) they could have gone with an image of one of the soldiers of the time , think it might have looked better. I agree. I think it would have made for a great logo and fitted better with the nickname. Edited January 29, 2016 by grachan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 I can't put it better than Ben Jones (Cooter) from the Dukes Of Hazzard: That flag on top of the General Lee made a statement that the values of the rural south were the values of courage and family and good times. As long as you weren't black of course... Ben Jones did of course also go by the handle 'Crazy Cooter' in the DoH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 As long as you weren't black of course... Ben Jones did of course also go by the handle 'Crazy Cooter' in the DoH. In Robs defence, he said he couldn't put it better.And judging by some of his posts on this thread,i believe him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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