Tai Woffinden On Talksport

[BWitcher]

Well I'm afraid I do, you just have to read some of the Posts on here to see that.

 

I cannot give you answers to questions for which I have no answers. The only Poster I can state, with any degree of certainty, the motive for a Post - is me.

 

It is not for me to question who Posts what on the Forum only that they are allowed to do so without 'fear or favour'. I will defend anyone's right to Post what they like - I just think that all the nastiness is unnecessary. I have done my best to be honest with you - you may not like what I say but there you have it.

 

I had probably better stop replying to Posts - someone has already accused me of "making things worse". That was NOT my intention.

 

So you condone posters breaking forum rules. Which is what Gustix does with each and everyone of his trolling posts.

 

Glad we cleared that up.

[The White Knight]

 

So you condone posters breaking forum rules. Which is what Gustix does with each and everyone of his trolling posts.

 

Glad we cleared that up.

No but if you are going to go on like that BW there are more Trolls on here than gustix, who I don't believe is a Troll, and who is more Trolled against than Trolling in my opinion.

 

I wonder who that could be?

[waiheke1]

No but if you are going to go on like that BW there are more Trolls on here than gustix, who I don't believe is a Troll, and who is more Trolled against than Trolling in my opinion.

 

I wonder who that could be?

Starman? Though it may be that he is not a troll, and really is genuinely that thick. Not sure it's fair to label him a troll.

Or do you mean kks? Or the polish guy who peddles one sport propaganda?

[Gemini]

 

Firstly it isn't a death wish, that's just your inability to read correctly.

 

Secondly, it wouldn't be the first one anyway, that belongs to Subedei I believe.

Yes, and unfortunately for him I am still going strong.

[waiheke1]

Returning to the subject of Tai Woffinden: Has any Brit ever been riding as well as he is currently?

 

Tai in 2013 I don't believe was top of the league averages like he is now.

Loram in 2000 wasn't as dominant as Tai looks,didn't win a GP and wasn't anywhere near as strong domestically

HAvelock in 93 was actually very impressive in qualifiers, not so much domestically, and certainly wasn't favourite on world final night wheras Tai would be a red hot favourite

Carter in 82 dominated the BL, but didn't win any of the major world final qualifiers

Lee - wasn't the worlds best in 80 when he won the title, was red hot for patches in 83 but didn't win anything of note and wasn't top in the BL averages, 79 he was possibly the world's best but not consistently at the level Tai is riding

PC - in 76/77 is probably the only rider I can think of that may come close to current form Tai, in that he was outstanding across all competitions

Peter Craven - some doubt (if i correctly recall debate on this) as to whether he would have won a title under a GP system, would leave others with more knowledge of that era as to whether there was any season where he performed as well as Tai has this season?

 

If Tai picks up the crown this season, will that see him overtake the two PCs as greatest Brit of the post-war era?

[SCB]

If Tai picks up the crown this season, will that see him overtake the two PCs as greatest Brit of the post-war era?

If Tai can have two World Titles by ages 25, having won 2 of the 4 World Championship seasons he's raced in, he surely has to be our greatest ever. and frankly, it wouldn't be at all unfair to suggest that he could be heading for an all time greatest rider in the next 10 years. If he can do an Hancock and go on until 45.....

[Bruiser McHuge]

its a bit early to be calling Tai the best Brit of all time or becoming the best rider of all time.....he's got a long way to go yet..

 

maybe its a generation thing but to me he'll never be as good as Peter Collins, but i was young when Collins was about and you always look back and think things were better when you were young !

 

also, i do think its impossible to compare the old world final era to the Grand Prix era...the old riders basically had one meeting to win a world title...no falls, no engine failures, no bad ride.....it was all on the night.....Peter Collins would have walked a Grand Prix in 1977 but was injured days before the final and didnt win.....how many titles would Nielsen at his peak won under a GP system ?....in many ways its easier to win a title now even though the fields are tougher than many old world finals but in many ways its also fairer as the best rider SHOULD win over a series.

having said that, there weren't many poor world champions under the old system either

[iris123]

its a bit early to be calling Tai the best Brit of all time or becoming the best rider of all time.....he's got a long way to go yet..

 

maybe its a generation thing but to me he'll never be as good as Peter Collins, but i was young when Collins was about and you always look back and think things were better when you were young !

 

also, i do think its impossible to compare the old world final era to the Grand Prix era...the old riders basically had one meeting to win a world title...no falls, no engine failures, no bad ride.....it was all on the night.....Peter Collins would have walked a Grand Prix in 1977 but was injured days before the final and didnt win.....how many titles would Nielsen at his peak won under a GP system ?....in many ways its easier to win a title now even though the fields are tougher than many old world finals but in many ways its also fairer as the best rider SHOULD win over a series.

having said that, there weren't many poor world champions under the old system either

I'd agree with you.For me it was electric waiting for Peter Collins to come out in the next race t see what he would do and although it was a few years before he really got to the top,i think there was a period from 1973-77 when he was like that every meeting.Tai has a great chance to go on and become our best ever rider,but he hasn't done it yet and no-one knows what the future holds

[The White Knight]

I'd agree with you.For me it was electric waiting for Peter Collins to come out in the next race t see what he would do and although it was a few years before he really got to the top,i think there was a period from 1973-77 when he was like that every meeting.Tai has a great chance to go on and become our best ever rider,but he hasn't done it yet and no-one knows what the future holds

Very true but I would suggest that the odds are good.

 

Whether he will get as many Titles as Peter Craven or even the none English Ivan Mauger - we will have to wait and see.

[oldace]

Very true but I would suggest that the odds are good.

 

Whether he will get as many Titles as Peter Craven or even the none English Ivan Mauger - we will have to wait and see.

 

 

I suspect we will only have to wait just over 3 months for that one

[The White Knight]

 

 

I suspect we will only have to wait just over 3 months for that one

Quite right Oldace.

 

Go to the top of the Class and sharpen the rubbers.

[Bruiser McHuge]

 

 

I suspect we will only have to wait just over 3 months for that one

 

yes...i'm sure he'll get his second title this year and i'm sure he'll finish as the most decorated British rider ever and possibly the most titles ever beating Mauger, Rickardsson etc.......whether that would make him the best rider of all time would still be open to debate ...but it would be a good debate

[nw42]

I'd agree with you.For me it was electric waiting for Peter Collins to come out in the next race t see what he would do and although it was a few years before he really got to the top,i think there was a period from 1973-77 when he was like that every meeting.Tai has a great chance to go on and become our best ever rider,but he hasn't done it yet and no-one knows what the future holds

 

 

I agree with Bruiser and yourself but I was also a youngster when Peter Collins, I was born in 60 and had been going to speedway regularly with my dad since about 68, we even used to attend the winter training schools at Hyde Road on Saturdays. I can remember seeing PC there and realising how much of a natural he was, we used go over to Rochdale on the odd Sunday (I think) when he rode for them.

 

We were present at nearly all of his biggest meetings in the UK, the 2 Michanek run offs, British Finals, White City, Northern Riders (when it meant something) BLRC, etc etc. So I can't say it's easy to be totally unbiased. He was successful but I think we would all agree it was they way he got so many of his points that made him the darling of British speedway, Tai shows glimpses of that, like one of his rides at Cardiff, but he's such a good gater that he doesn't often have to make such daring moves.

 

I do think Tai will eclipse Peter in terms of success, I hope he stays as injury free as possible, I've no doubt that PC would tasted more glory but for injury.

[robert72]

When you try to compare tai & Peter collins it's wrong,when pc rode the sport was full of world class riders,now it's just a couple of them.

[The White Knight]

When you try to compare tai & Peter collins it's wrong,when pc rode the sport was full of world class riders,now it's just a couple of them.

You do have a good point there. The opposition is nowhere near as strong, in quantity of very top Riders, today as was the case for many years in this Country.

[JCookie]

I personally don't like Woffinden but I have to accept just how clever and professional he has been through his career. Ever since starting out you got the impression he was super organised, and that followed all the way through until the present day. Look at his EL move, was it the fashionable Poole with all the cool kids & money? No, it was Wolverhampton, not very fashionable but a good solid support network to give him the best possible chance. When you compare Woffinden with another wonderkid and their career paths to date, it doesn't take a genius to work out the differences. I honestly believe Woffinden is that far ahead of 99% of them off the track that he'll be at least a 4-5 world champ.

[nw42]

When you try to compare tai & Peter collins it's wrong,when pc rode the sport was full of world class riders,now it's just a couple of them.

 

 

I take your point but it's not so much wrong as it is difficult, comparisons will always be made in respect of different eras of any sport, Pele, Best or Messi, Higgins, Davis or O'Sullivan, Fangio, Moss, Schumacher or Senna etc etc. It will always generate conversation and will always be discussed on forums, it's human nature.

 

Yes they rode in different eras, on very different machinery but it's still a 500cc clutch start 4 lap race. I'm not so sure there were many more World class riders back then, the standard of British riders was much better but the Poles weren't a force and nor were the Russians, Denmark had Ole Olsen and not much else, Sweden had just about enough to put together a decent test side as did Australasia, the Americans didn't provide any big hitters until Penhall got going in 79.

 

 

Back on topic, Woffinden has all it takes to be a multiple World Champion, he's a fine rider and a cracking ambassador for the sport.

[waiheke1]

I agree NW42.

You could put out a field now of 15 riders that are what I would consider to be world class, or pretty close to it - a field of whom maybe ten would have a chance pof a podium position, the rest all good enough to make top 8:

Tai, Hancock, Pedersen, Hampel, Janowski, Pawlicki, Holder, Ward, Zagar, Vaculik, Emil, G Laguta, Kildermand, NKI, Lindback

 

and then another 15 of riders who are genuine international standard:

Jonsson, Pawlicki (snr), A Laguta, Doyle, Batchelor, Harris, Nicholls, Lindgren, Kasprzak, Zmarzlik, Kolodisz, Sundstrom, Andersen, MJJ, Bjerre

 

with another half dozen Poles(PPx2, Buzz, etc.) capable of competing at that level, quite a few more Danes (Mads, Bech etc), then up and coming riders like Milik, Lambert, Lebedevs, Morris etc who would not be out of place in that second list.

 

The standard of British and kiwi riders is a lot lower than the 70s, the Swedes somewhat lower, Americans have one world class rider (same as 70s when they had Autrey then Penhall), but the Poles now are as strong as the Brits were then, the Aussies are stronger, the Danes much stronger, The Russians much stronger, and you have other riders from the continent like Zagar, Vaculik who are world class.

For most of the 70s you had Olsen, Mauger, Collins and Michanek who would be stong favourites any year, obviously Lee came on the scene towards the end of the decade, and in any year you might have another rider who would ptoentially be capable of winning a one off final (I'm thinking Crump in 75, Simmons in 76) - but over a GP season, I think only Lee in 79 and possibly Michanek would have got close to preventing the "big three" dominating the decade.

[BWitcher]

It all comes back to the fact that folk were watching 13 heat meetings, with heat leaders not meeting each other as much as they do now very often on preferred gate positions.

 

Resulting in all 3 heat leaders in teams running high averages (as they included bonus pts).. and 'some' folk think that meant they were all top class riders as they rarely saw them beat... especially as they often only saw them once a year.

 

Now, you see riders all the time with all the TV coverage, plus visiting tracks 2,3 sometimes 4 times a season. Heat leaders constantly racing each other.. resulting in their aura of invincibility being eroded.

 

Whatever era you choose to take, as waiheke mentions above, you will always have 2 or 3 dominant forces at the top, another group just below capable of challenging but not as consistently, then a further group below that.

You do have a good point there. The opposition is nowhere near as strong, in quantity of very top Riders, today as was the case for many years in this Country.

 

No he doesn't.. as has been explained in the preceding posts.

[stratton]

I'd agree with you.For me it was electric waiting for Peter Collins to come out in the next race t see what he would do and although it was a few years before he really got to the top,i think there was a period from 1973-77 when he was like that every meeting.Tai has a great chance to go on and become our best ever rider,but he hasn't done it yet and no-one knows what the future holds

I thought Lee and Collins took it to another level how did those TWO only win two titles between em? mike i was a bigger fan of but PC could of won three titles Lee defo should of won another in Norden 83.