Truro Robin Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 I have been recently wondering whether averages give us the full worth of a rider to a team. For instance, Rider A scores 3,3,2 & 0 from 4 rides, beats 6 opponent riders and is beaten by 2 and therefore has a GSA of 8 for this match. Rider B scores 2,2,2 & 2 from 4 rides, beats 4 opponent riders and is beaten by 4 but also has a GSA of 8. Another scenario is, Rider C scores 1,1,1 & 1 from 4 rides, beats 4 opponents and is beaten by 4 and therefore has a GSA of 4. Rider D scores 1,1,1 & 1 from 4 rides and doesn't beat an opponent but still achieves a GSA of 4. Using averages alone as a guide, Riders A & B and Riders C & D are equal to each other but are they really? I wonder whether the 'riders beat to riders beaten by ratio' averages out over a season or whether there are certain riders, particularly in the 4 - 8 point average range, that have a significantly superior ratio to other? Would be interesting to know what others think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Averages are at best a rough guide. Though TBF to the two 1111 examples, they have both beat 4 other riders, even if for one of them it was always his team mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Points in team racing should only be awarded for beating opposition riders. Having said that, the law of averages will tend to balance out points scored from beating team mates and opposition riders. Poor riders simply won't score much at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 The other problem with Elite League averages is that the changes to the heat format means comparing side by side rider averages is increasingly problematic. For example, Rider A above can beat six opponents to achieve an average of 8, but if he rides at 1, 3 or 5 the calibre of rider's he is against will be much higher than if he was riding at 2 or 4. Another way of putting it was someone at Swindon trying to convince me that Jason Garrity is the third best rider in the league, as he has the third highest average (he was implying that Coventry were somehow "cheating" by having Garrity at reserve). I pointed out to him that Garrity, as a draft rider, only rides against other draft riders and each of the opposition secondstrings, therefore comparing his average with a secondstring or heat leader was meaningless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 The other problem with Elite League averages is that the changes to the heat format means comparing side by side rider averages is increasingly problematic. For example, Rider A above can beat six opponents to achieve an average of 8, but if he rides at 1, 3 or 5 the calibre of rider's he is against will be much higher than if he was riding at 2 or 4. Another way of putting it was someone at Swindon trying to convince me that Jason Garrity is the third best rider in the league, as he has the third highest average (he was implying that Coventry were somehow "cheating" by having Garrity at reserve). I pointed out to him that Garrity, as a draft rider, only rides against other draft riders and each of the opposition secondstrings, therefore comparing his average with a secondstring or heat leader was meaningless. This seriously confuses some! There are Bees favs who want to promote Garrity to heatleader and replace Hans with a reserve - some of the names suggested are great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 For example, Rider A above can beat six opponents to achieve an average of 8, but if he rides at 1, 3 or 5 the calibre of rider's he is against will be much higher than if he was riding at 2 or 4. That's always been the case - heat leaders have always had relatively harder rides compared to Nos 2, 6 and 7, although No. 2 historically had to ride with reserves in the critical Heat 8 which was the obvious place for a double tactical substitution. The differences are obviously accentuated with the current system though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruffdiamond Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Would say, the 'pairs' scoring work in team matches, putting the onus onto not coming last,,, maybe more scope for team riding, obviously would have to change the average system to 16 like,,, bit of a big change, but it could work :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Would say, the 'pairs' scoring work in team matches, putting the onus onto not coming last,,, maybe more scope for team riding, obviously would have to change the average system to 16 like,,, bit of a big change, but it could work :-) Just award points for beating opponents, then it fully reflects a rider's ability and avoids the need for messy bonus points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruffdiamond Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Just award points for beating opponents, then it fully reflects a rider's ability and avoids the need for messy bonus points.so,,, if rider 1 from team A wins, he gets points,if rider 2 from team A is second, he gets points, and riders 1 & 2 from team B are 3rd & 4th, they don't score ??? if rider 1 from team A wins, rider 1 from team B is 2nd, rider 2 from A is 3rd, they all score and the other guy at the back doesn't ??? if rider 1 from team A wins , team B riders are 2nd & 3rd, they all score, and the other guy at the back doesn't ??? I think they'll have to hand pencils out with rubbers on with the programme, lol,,, if things aren't complicated enough ;-) Edited June 22, 2015 by ruffdiamond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 so,,, if rider 1 from team A wins, he gets points, if rider 2 from team A is second, he gets points, and riders 1 & 2 from team B are 3rd & 4th, they don't score ??? if rider 1 from team A wins, rider 1 from team B is 2nd, rider 2 from A is 3rd, they all score and the other guy at the back doesn't ??? if rider 1 from team A wins , team B riders are 2nd & 3rd, they all score, and the other guy at the back doesn't ??? I think they'll have to hand pencils out with rubbers on with the programme, lol,,, if things aren't complicated enough ;-) It's not too difficult, as long as you know that R&B are team mate and W&Y are team mates. Scores would become 4-0, 3-1, 2-2, 1-3, 0-4 rather than 5-1, 4-2, 3-3, 2-4 and 1-5. It's actually a nice idea, would stop riders doing a Billy Janniro (sitting behind a team mate, scoring 3-6 point bonus points a meeting and being a 7 point man on a 4 point average) or riders like Ty Proctor failing to get a work permit due to scoring bonus points. The issue comes when newbies are trying to work out "did he beat his team mate there or an opponent". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sotonian Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 This would also potentially cut costs since there would be 60 rather than 90 points per match to pay. In reality, the £/point would just rise to offset the fewer points actually scored. I like the idea though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 if things aren't complicated enough ;-) Slightly more complexity would actually simplify things. Averages would be a better reflection of ability, and removes the complication of bonus points. The issue comes when newbies are trying to work out "did he beat his team mate there or an opponent". You need to know that already to work out bonus points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Slightly more complexity would actually simplify things. Averages would be a better reflection of ability, and removes the complication of bonus points. You need to know that already to work out bonus points. Why do you need to work out bonus points these days? they aren't in the averages. I still like to put my little dot in my programme when filling out scores, but its just out of my own interest. You don't need it. Edited June 22, 2015 by grachan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruffdiamond Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) It's not too difficult, as long as you know that R&B are team mate and W&Y are team mates. Scores would become 4-0, 3-1, 2-2, 1-3, 0-4 rather than 5-1, 4-2, 3-3, 2-4 and 1-5. It's actually a nice idea, would stop riders doing a Billy Janniro (sitting behind a team mate, scoring 3-6 point bonus points a meeting and being a 7 point man on a 4 point average) or riders like Ty Proctor failing to get a work permit due to scoring bonus points. The issue comes when newbies are trying to work out "did he beat his team mate there or an opponent". ahh,,, av snapped me ffffing pencil :-(,,, better add sharpeners as well :-) Edited June 22, 2015 by ruffdiamond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Why do you need to work out bonus points these days? they aren't in the averages. Because averages sans bonus points don't reflect a rider's true average, which has potential consequences for guests and one-to-one replacements. In fact, it can potentially affect who goes at reserve as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Because averages sans bonus points don't reflect a rider's true average, which has potential consequences for guests and one-to-one replacements. In fact, it can potentially affect who goes at reserve as well. True. But people who know about it in that much detail aren't going to have a problem working out bonus points anyway. On a simple basis 3-2-1-0 works just fine. Can't see a reason to introduce anything that would complicate that. They've already done enough of that with the TR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruiser McHuge Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 I still think bonus points should count in the averages in a team sport, especially when these averages are being used to decide on whether a rider qualifies for a work permit........why should a rider be content to sit behind his team mate to block the opposition when he has the speed to actually win the race and get 3 points on his average rather than 2.....it's supposed to be a team sport after all.....you may as well knock your team mate off and claim the full points and boost your average...second behind your team mate should give yo 3 points on your average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 I still think bonus points should count in the averages in a team sport, especially when these averages are being used to decide on whether a rider qualifies for a work permit........why should a rider be content to sit behind his team mate to block the opposition when he has the speed to actually win the race and get 3 points on his average rather than 2.....it's supposed to be a team sport after all.....you may as well knock your team mate off and claim the full points and boost your average...second behind your team mate should give yo 3 points on your average. Except it's generally better to have a lower average rather than a higher one. It's a double edged sword really. Take out the bonus points and you lose out the points like that where you follow a partner home. Then again, you also include the extra points for someone tootling round in third half a lap behind where someone else had an engine failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruiser McHuge Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Except it's generally better to have a lower average rather than a higher one.It's a double edged sword really. Take out the bonus points and you lose out the points like that where you follow a partner home. Then again, you also include the extra points for someone tootling round in third half a lap behind where someone else had an engine failure. Engine failures are part of speedway..you win some and you lose some...same as rider falls and exclusions...they can all gain a rider points they don't fully deserve but that's speedway.. I know when I was involved with my brother in law riding and bonus points were included in official averages he was never bothered at winning a race if his partner was ahead...he was paid the same and officially credited the same....I don't think many riders were...the team came first.....I'm not sure that would be the case now, especially for PL rider needing a 7 point average which isn't easy without bonus points....I think Ty Procter had plenty of bonus points this season but they counted for nothing when in a team sport they should have counted for everything....all you'll have is 7 individuals masquerading as a team sport , which a lot would say has been the case for a while anyway 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Engine failures are part of speedway..you win some and you lose some...same as rider falls and exclusions...they can all gain a rider points they don't fully deserve but that's speedway.. I know when I was involved with my brother in law riding and bonus points were included in official averages he was never bothered at winning a race if his partner was ahead...he was paid the same and officially credited the same....I don't think many riders were...the team came first.....I'm not sure that would be the case now, especially for PL rider needing a 7 point average which isn't easy without bonus points....I think Ty Procter had plenty of bonus points this season but they counted for nothing when in a team sport they should have counted for everything....all you'll have is 7 individuals masquerading as a team sport , which a lot would say has been the case for a while anyway They are still paid the same. Do riders really care about their averages unless specifically told about them for a specific reason. EG - get your average up, you need a work permit. Or, get your average down, we need to strengthen the side. Either way, again, it works both ways. Plusses and minuses on either side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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