customhouseregular Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 We have all seen SWC events ruined by the "No-Reserves" rule and heats being run with a rider missing. In the event of a genuine reason for a rider being unable to compete, injury, illness etc. why can't teams use r/r?. Each of the 3 competing riders take a r/r race in turn. For the 4th. programmed ride the lowest scoring rider takes the missing rider's place. In the last 4 nominated riders races the highest scoring rider replaces the missing rider in heat 20. This spreads the rides equitably and ensures the event is not ruined for riders and fans alike. If I am talking nonsense feel free to put me right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 We have all seen SWC events ruined by the "No-Reserves" rule and heats being run with a rider missing. In the event of a genuine reason for a rider being unable to compete, injury, illness etc. why can't teams use r/r?. Each of the 3 competing riders take a r/r race in turn. For the 4th. programmed ride the lowest scoring rider takes the missing rider's place. In the last 4 nominated riders races the highest scoring rider replaces the missing rider in heat 20. This spreads the rides equitably and ensures the event is not ruined for riders and fans alike. If I am talking nonsense feel free to put me right. THIS is being discussed but the fear remains that a low scoring rider will pull out with a 'headache' or worse to allow better riders to take his place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 So why not just allow a reserve as always used to be the case? Surely the additional cost is immaterial in the scheme of things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 THIS is being discussed but the fear remains that a low scoring rider will pull out with a 'headache' or worse to allow better riders to take his place. I can understand that. But, how about, r/r being used once the actual meeting has started if a rider is put out by a racing accident, like Hampel? Or, better still, what waihekeaces1 said. Just have a reserve available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) Why over complicate matters so much. Just have a reserve. Teams having a reserve that can be used at a Team Managers discretion has served the Sport very well for decades and decades. BSI must be the first promoters to ever consider trying to run a meeting without reserve options. They are a given and a necessary expense. Not an easy way to cut costs; as has now been proved. Edited June 18, 2015 by Grand Central 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f-s-p Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 In Finland we have 4 man teams in 4TT. Riders are in riding order according to average. If number 1 or 2 is missing, RR can be used for number 1. If the missing rider is number 2, #1 becomes two. Basic idea is to have full heats and give the chance for teams to come with only three riders if there are problems in getting a rider. It works. It allows things but it does not give an advantage. But we are talking about SWC. Teams should be full. Bottom line is that speedway is a small sport, most riders only interested in money and the federations (except PZM) just dont have any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 It's simple enough, if countries wish, they can name a 5th rider. He is not programmed to ride but he can take any 5 rides. The countries wanting to save money will just name 4 riders and take the risk, those not being so tight will name a 5th man. So what if that 5th man is Hancock, Woffinden, Hampel, AJ or Holder - thats tactics. But he can ONLY take 5 rides. It could be he takes all 5 of one riders rides, or the last 5 rides so you end on a high. Let the team managers manage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 So why not just allow a reserve as always used to be the case? Surely the additional cost is immaterial in the scheme of things? But then you'd have to divide the 'prize money' five instead of four ways, and it's hardly very generous now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 But then you'd have to divide the 'prize money' five instead of four ways, and it's hardly very generous now. Sweden had a 5th non-riding rider at both meetings, the Americans had a 5th rider with them, GB had Howarth at both meetings, I'm sure the Poles had somewhere there as well. The Aussies often have numerous extra riders in the pits (Brady Kurtz was at Lynn for a start), Hans was there for the Danes.... As for the rest, it's not like they're going to win so it doesn't really matter too much anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Agree with others. Just have a reserve. Let the managers use the reserve when they eel like it up to 5 times. Simple. Common sense. If teams don't have a reserve, then that's too bad. they'll just have to face up to having a rider missing if someone pulls out. But the option should be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 As I said before just have a reserve who can take two rides at any time in the meeting ..that could be for a injured rider or replacing someone who is out of form ..covers all bases including teams trying to cheat etc . Also rid of the joker and tac subs just no need for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Leslie Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 You can't allow R/R it would be open to all kinds of abuse. The obvious would be that the weakest rider slides off and withdraws with a bruise or two, and the strong riders take his place. But it would also open up other fiddling opportunities like can R/R take a joker or a T/S? There could be clever ways to work it to get your best rider into the best joker race. The solution is so obvious. Include a reserve. The reserve would be allowed to replace any rider who is injured or out of form at the manager's discretion. he can only take 4 rides maximum, and cannot be used as a joker. That would cover for the problem of losing a rider, but there would be no fiddling options and no advantage in naming a stronger rider at reserve. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 You can't allow R/R it would be open to all kinds of abuse. The obvious would be that the weakest rider slides off and withdraws with a bruise or two, and the strong riders take his place. But it would also open up other fiddling opportunities like can R/R take a joker or a T/S? There could be clever ways to work it to get your best rider into the best joker race. The solution is so obvious. Include a reserve. The reserve would be allowed to replace any rider who is injured or out of form at the manager's discretion. he can only take 4 rides maximum, and cannot be used as a joker. That would cover for the problem of losing a rider, but there would be no fiddling options and no advantage in naming a stronger rider at reserve. Surely it would be an advantage to have you best rider at reserve as you could place them where you wanted them . I guess thou not being able to use them as a joker would stop that . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 As I said before just have a reserve who can take two rides at any time in the meeting ..that could be for a injured rider or replacing someone who is out of form ..covers all bases including teams trying to cheat etc . Also rid of the joker and tac subs just no need for them Even if you allowed the reserves one less ride than the others, that would discourage putting the best rider there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Leslie Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Surely it would be an advantage to have you best rider at reserve as you could place them where you wanted them . I guess thou not being able to use them as a joker would stop that . I'm suggesting limiting them to 4 rides instead of 5, and no use as a joker. I think that would be enough to stop anyone using the best rider at reserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 And why not have the tactical option of putting your 'best' as reserve if that suits. I just don't see what detriment that woukd create, that we want to stop. The tactics involved would at least give Tatum and Pearson something to talk about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) I'm suggesting limiting them to 4 rides instead of 5, and no use as a joker. I think that would be enough to stop anyone using the best rider at reserve. Yep think that is pretty good . Don't think I read your post correctly first time .thoi I would like to see no joker so I would rather have 3 rides rather than 4 . Edited June 18, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Sweden had a 5th non-riding rider at both meetings, the Americans had a 5th rider with them, GB had Howarth at both meetings, I'm sure the Poles had somewhere there as well. The Aussies often have numerous extra riders in the pits (Brady Kurtz was at Lynn for a start), Hans was there for the Danes.... As for the rest, it's not like they're going to win so it doesn't really matter too much anyway. Yeah that is right, they have 5 riders with them in case someone becomes sick or injured. Every team can change riders until 30 min after practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
customhouseregular Posted June 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Why over complicate matters so much. Just have a reserve. Teams having a reserve that can be used at a Team Managers discretion has served the Sport very well for decades and decades. BSI must be the first promoters to ever consider trying to run a meeting without reserve options. They are a given and a necessary expense. Not an easy way to cut costs; as has now been proved. I totally agree we should have reserves but it seems costs dictate their non-inclusion. So, if no reserves we should have r/r. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 I totally agree we should have reserves but it seems costs dictate their non-inclusion. So, if no reserves we should have r/r. If you allow R/R you are going back to the problem we had before, where people can feign injury or illness to allow better riders in. Just have reserves. If a side can only find 4 riders then they'll have to risk going without one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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