Who Was Best, Louis Senior Or Louis Junior?

[spiegal]

I think it's harsh on Woffinden....he was born in England to English parents....yes he grew up in Perth but still made regular trips back to the UK as well.....of course he will "feel" Australian to a large degree as that's his upbringing...but he was still born in Britain to British parents...his dad's background was British speedway..he certainly can't be accused of using Britain as a flag of convenience....he is British !.......and as for being mates with the Aussies, so what....none of those Aussies are from Perth, they all live 3000 miles away on the other side of the country so they just became mates in England basically....maybe they were/are just better company which is how anybody chooses their mates and I'm sure he's got English mates too !......you can't judge a nationality by who they hang out with regularly !

A fair point of view...

[Terry]

Jimmy Nilsson wasnt in the GPs that season.

 

I guess it's all about opinions but I wouldn't put Jimmy in ahead of anyone in the line-up.

 

There wasn't any obvious absentees like any other year.

[The White Knight]

I think it's very rose tinted glasses if people are looking back on Chris Pusey and Reg Wilson and putting them on a pedestal.....they were decent riders racing in a much easier format , plus being in the nice position of being able to take the most favoured gate position in every race if they wished.....

The fact is that you cannot realistically compare the 70's with today....I personally miles preferred the 70's and I think only a fool would say the sport wasn't in a much healthier position back then ....and there were definitely miles more top quality English riders about than today........but it's too easy to say that all riders were better back then than today....sure the sport was more high profile but the race formats, the non fixed gate positions, the more evenly spread of talent over more teams all go together to make it easier for a top rider back then to get those higher averages...but like I've said before it doesn't necessarily mean the top riders back then were better than the top riders today.....it's impossible to compare....but I do know that the GP line ups of today are stronger than a lot of the old world finals from back then in my opinion....the world final was never the best 16 in the world which was always wrong.

And there's the rub.

 

Perhaps if they went back to the so called 'old format' Speedway might be more successful. It worked then - from my perspective the 'new format' doesn't seem to be dragging people in to the Tracks does it?

 

Perhaps in the somewhat pathetic attempts to 'move with the times' Speedway has lost it's meaning to a lot of people.

 

There is an old saying "if it ain't bust - don't fix it" - Speedway has tried to fix it and look where we are now....

[Bruiser McHuge]

Out of interest can anybody remember when the old 13 heat formula was ditched and what the original reasons were for its ditching..?

 

I must admit I thought it was a good formula....but I hasten to add I was young and I don't think anything anywhere is as good as when I was young....music, TV, radio ..so I often see things through the eyes of an old bugger who often says. " back in my day".....much to the amusement of my kids !

[The White Knight]

Out of interest can anybody remember when the old 13 heat formula was ditched and what the original reasons were for its ditching..?

 

I must admit I thought it was a good formula....but I hasten to add I was young and I don't think anything anywhere is as good as when I was young....music, TV, radio ..so I often see things through the eyes of an old bugger who often says. " back in my day".....much to the amusement of my kids !

Occasionally though - you will be right as you are about Speedway.

[weatherwatcher]

The whole set up in world speedway as changed a great deal, the Poles wanted to become a top speedway nation, they trained the youngsters and brought them through the ranks. Britain always had a fair amount of good solid world class riders, but somewhere around the mid 80's they started to bring in lots of overseas riders. Some where good, some should never have been given track space, but the promoters seemed to love them, Chris Louis and the other riders of that era, where probably the last one to get a shot at the big time over here, whilst the teams saw all the overseas lads taking those team spots our young British lads, where never given the chance to compete in the EL So they either stayed in the PL or NL and just plodded along, never getting a chance to show what they where made of.

Now with the draft riders coming through, they have been given a chance again, some of this years draft lads should have earned a full team place, but no they got shoved for another year at reserve.

What it needs is a promoter, with the guts and bottle to say, Yes I will give one of our young riders a chance, instead of bringing in someone from Europe who have never proved themselves, until this happens, it will be a long time before we see a return to the days of British speedway, when we Chris Lois and a big list of other British riders that made it to the big time in world speedway.

[Guest]

The 13 heat format was ditched from the old BL in advance of the 1988 season, although the NL had previously adopted a longer format in 1982 & 1983.

 

Personally, I don't think reverting to 13 heats would wash as there are enough complaints about supporters getting value for money as it is. The only chance would be if the promoters ran proper second halves with the Rider of the Night finale possibly counting towards qualification for the ELRC/PLRC.

[The White Knight]

The 13 heat format was ditched from the old BL in advance of the 1988 season, although the NL had previously adopted a longer format in 1982 & 1983.

 

Personally, I don't think reverting to 13 heats would wash as there are enough complaints about supporters getting value for money as it is. The only chance would be if the promoters ran proper second halves with the Rider of the Night finale possibly counting towards qualification for the ELRC/PLRC.

YES!!! :approve:

[BWitcher]

YES!!! :approve:

Yeah great, till one of your riders gets hurt in a meaningless 2nd half race that only half the crowd stay behind for...

 

They were got rid off because riders and fans alike weren't interested.

 

More tracks are starting to stage developmental league matches after the main meet and that should be encouraged.

[spiegal]

Yeah great, till one of your riders gets hurt in a meaningless 2nd half race that only half the crowd stay behind for...

 

They were got rid off because riders and fans alike weren't interested.

 

More tracks are starting to stage developmental league matches after the main meet and that should be encouraged.

Totally wrong..they were dispensed with as a way of saving money...I was actually involved in that era when the changes were made. Equally at least 3 of those races were for Juniors and at Ipswich that helped development of Lanham, Jones,Hines..etc..etc..but that's probably before your time. The best ideas were the Junior leagues...but they were found to be expensive....and again many tracks simply did not concern themselves with youngsters..it was cheaper and easier to just hike ina Pole/Swede/czech/Aussie All down to costs,and short tem expediency but it must be said that at last these development leagues are working, althoug to mind British Speedway has to re-jig itself at a lower base.

[stratton]

Totally wrong..they were dispensed with as a way of saving money...I was actually involved in that era when the changes were made. Equally at least 3 of those races were for Juniors and at Ipswich that helped development of Lanham, Jones,Hines..etc..etc..but that's probably before your time. The best ideas were the Junior leagues...but they were found to be expensive....and again many tracks simply did not concern themselves with youngsters..it was cheaper and easier to just hike ina Pole/Swede/czech/Aussie All down to costs,and short tem expediency but it must be said that at last these development leagues are working, althoug to mind British Speedway has to re-jig itself at a lower base.

Totally right the second halves they were excellent for encouraging juniors giving them experience and mixing it with the big boys.And your point about the Junior leagues is spot on at Swindon we produced Rosco,David/Kevin Smart,Hewlett and a few others with that ploy but cutbacks and change saw the end of it.

[g13webb]

To answer the title of the thread, it would have to be John, to me by some distance. No disrespect to Chris but John was a bit special. Considering it was late to start riding, he achieved a great deal in the short time in the sport. Like it has been said the sport was different then. but quality is a bit like the cream in the milk, in that it always rises to the top.

There are lots of differences in the sport, far too many to mention. But my No1. hate now is the CMA. Back in the days when all riders rode against similar opposition, their average was a direct indication of their ability, and the position they held in the team. The 3 heat leaders were say between 7.5 and 11, The second strings say 7 to 5 and the two reserves were 4 and below. There was a direct comparison between all the riders. Now the whole scenario is a joke with all riders CMA within 3 pts of each other. We have 2nd strings with higher average then HL, and Reserves, some even higher than that. Depending on the position they ride, the easier it is to score pts.

 

It was mentioned John Louis average over 11, and that was exceptionally high. There weren't many with a 11 average. Trying to compare that with today you would place him in the top 2 or 3 riders. (Todays CMA, approx. High 8's or low 9's) Its all very well looking at relevant CMA for an indication of ability. but my evaluation comes from within. Having watch speedway for 50 yrs. I've seen some wonderful talented riders. All with their own merits. and make assessments on that basis. I find it difficult to know how people, who have followed the sport for only a few years, can cast opinions based on a few video clips.

 

The sport has changed beyond recognition, Bike are faster, Times are quicker. It now played the world over.

 

Is it better.... No not really........ The empty stadiums answers that question.... Do I still enjoy it........ Of cause I do...

[Grand Central]

I hold no particular brief for the 'old second half' but there is no value in changing history.

 

Some people left after the main match, that is true.

Some riders had no interest in them, but this was really only a very small handful of top men who had lucrative continental commitments to dash off to.
The rest saw it them just extra races in which to earn money at their job.

Cash earnt there was just as useful as cash earned during the match to most first team riders

 

But these were the excuses which were waved around by the promoters masquerading as 'reasons' in the usual bogus PR.

 

The single reason for the change was to cut costs.

Just like the introduction of EDRs was (despite protestations of 'rider development').

 

Most tracks cut the number of 'premium cost races from 17 or 18 down to 15 in one single move.

And gave us the BJL which was done on a shoestring.

But they still managed to 'sell' the fact that the league match increased from 13 to 15 races as a reason for us to be grateful.

 

But of course like all promoters bright ideas of cost cutting, it rarely works.

By reducing the number of races they rode in, most ended up just bumping up the pay rate on their remaining races.

Bonkers as always

 

I am not advocating the return of second halves, just that reinventing the facts after almost thirty years needs to be curtailed.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Grand Central

[BWitcher]

No reinventing of facts here.

 

No doubt costs played a major part in it, nowhere have I disputed that..

 

The facts remain, by the time they were cut, half of the crowd had gone. Why pay out lots of money for a product 50% of your fan base has no interest in?

 

It was an idea that worked in its day but was coming towards the end of its shelf life when it was dispensed with.

[Grand Central]

No reinventing of facts here.

 

No doubt costs played a major part in it, nowhere have I disputed that..

 

The facts remain, by the time they were cut, half of the crowd had gone. Why pay out lots of money for a product 50% of your fan base has no interest in?

 

It was an idea that worked in its day but was coming towards the end of its shelf life when it was dispensed with.

Fair enough.

 

Just a couple of extra points.

 

Not really sure that it was any more disliked or outdated with the fans when it was removed than it ever had been. I can't say that I remember an increasing clamour on the terraces for its removal in the mid eighties that was not there ten, twenty or more years before.

 

Equally I dont think the people that left at the interval were doing so with any great ill feeling. It suited them to do so. And they returned next time and quite happily did the same again, week after week.

And on top of all that the BJL matches never really got those droves to turn around and stay to the bitter end either

 

One little anecdote from my youth in the North.

Quite few of my parents friends went to The Shay every week and left at the end of heat 13 (and before the interval) so that they could go back to their local and enjoy the rest of their Saturday night as they wished. The Speedway being just part of their premier weekend night out.

When the a Dukes moved to Odsal in 86 they were champing at the bit to get out of the Stadium ASAP as they now had further to travel back to the local.

In 1988 the match was extended to15 heats and the powers-that-be put the interval after Heat 10 AND there was then always an extra delay before the running of the nominated Heat 15. In one move there was no more chance of a 'complete ' Saturday at Speedway AND Pub.

Their answer to this dilemma was to drop Odsal and go straight down the pub!

 

PS

Just to keep this relevent.

John Louis rode some fantastic second half races in 1981 and 1982.

More than one of his Scratch Race final wins over Kenny Carter during this time were superb.

Some second halves may have been tame, but KC did not give him an inch!

Edited June 8, 2015 by Grand Central

[BWitcher]

Agree with everything you say there.

 

There was never a clamour for its removal, why would there be? If you weren't interested, you didn't stay.

 

As regards the interval etc, this is something many of us have raised and is another area the promotion seem way out of touch with the fans on. Speedway is a sport with natural intervals. On freezing cold nights, in a drawn out meeting, to then run an interval does nothing but alienate your fan base.

 

Meetings should be done in 90 mins.

[crazyb]

I saw Tiger Louis pass loads of times so he did not gate much when I saw him.

Both excellent riders.

Dad just has the edge.

I must say that John was way the better rider on all sorts of tracks. I never saw Chris ride any good on a wet one

[The White Knight]

No reinventing of facts here.

 

No doubt costs played a major part in it, nowhere have I disputed that..

 

The facts remain, by the time they were cut, half of the crowd had gone. Why pay out lots of money for a product 50% of your fan base has no interest in?

 

It was an idea that worked in its day but was coming towards the end of its shelf life when it was dispensed with.

Because, even if your figure of 50% (which I contest) is right - that still leaves 50% of Supporters were happy to watch the 'Second Halves' - I know I was. I know too that a lot of the time the Result of the Rider of the Night Final was arranged beforehand - but I still saw some terrific Races. Plus, as others have said, it was a great introduction to Speedway Racing for the Juniors.

 

I, for one, mourn the passing of the 'Second Halves'..

Edited June 8, 2015 by The White Knight

[ZODIAK]

I must say that John was way the better rider on all sorts of tracks. I never saw Chris ride any good on a wet one

You obviously never saw Chris win the 2000 British final then with a 15 point maximum in awful conditions...

[stratton]

To answer the title of the thread, it would have to be John, to me by some distance. No disrespect to Chris but John was a bit special. Considering it was late to start riding, he achieved a great deal in the short time in the sport. Like it has been said the sport was different then. but quality is a bit like the cream in the milk, in that it always rises to the top.

There are lots of differences in the sport, far too many to mention. But my No1. hate now is the CMA. Back in the days when all riders rode against similar opposition, their average was a direct indication of their ability, and the position they held in the team. The 3 heat leaders were say between 7.5 and 11, The second strings say 7 to 5 and the two reserves were 4 and below. There was a direct comparison between all the riders. Now the whole scenario is a joke with all riders CMA within 3 pts of each other. We have 2nd strings with higher average then HL, and Reserves, some even higher than that. Depending on the position they ride, the easier it is to score pts.

 

It was mentioned John Louis average over 11, and that was exceptionally high. There weren't many with a 11 average. Trying to compare that with today you would place him in the top 2 or 3 riders. (Todays CMA, approx. High 8's or low 9's) Its all very well looking at relevant CMA for an indication of ability. but my evaluation comes from within. Having watch speedway for 50 yrs. I've seen some wonderful talented riders. All with their own merits. and make assessments on that basis. I find it difficult to know how people, who have followed the sport for only a few years, can cast opinions based on a few video clips.

 

The sport has changed beyond recognition, Bike are faster, Times are quicker. It now played the world over.

 

Is it better.... No not really........ The empty stadiums answers that question.... Do I still enjoy it........ Of cause I do...

One of the best posts i have read on here for along time i can relate to all of it especially the points about the reserves.Those riders were often the crowd favourites,no world beaters but real team players and often were long serving riders which all us fans could relate to.At Swindon Keen and Hitch were my favourites (not ASHBY ??) both real racers.Also your point about making your own assessments on riders is so right, often you need to forget the figures and averages and go by your own instinct.I don't no what others think wouldn't it be great if we had matches with all riders having there programmed rides and no tactical changes at all the best team on the night then wins.