BWitcher Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Oh well......wish I'd not bothered with this now!! As someone who isn't a one-eyed supporter of a team, when i do go to see a match, one of the factors that gets me to go along is the chance to watch a "top" exponent of the art doing his stuff. I just think that it seems nowadys theres a higher chance that I'll go along, with money and time spent, and be disappointed at how whoever it is, actually performs. I know there the chance of that happening anyway, but it seems to be getting to be a higher chance. Thats what i meant by drop in quality. Didn't want to spark a stats "debate" !!!! You must have hated World Finals, BLRC's and now GP's. All those top riders and many of them only scoring a few pts! The quality is awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) If the 4 ride average makes no sense, neither does the 'race average' as its just the race average x 4. The concept of averages is the most simple thing in sport yet some on here claim it to be complicated Football has stats like goals per game, for instance Wayne Rooney scores 0.5 goals a game, that must be awfully confusing, how do you score half a goal!!!! Edited June 1, 2015 by Oldace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I agree with graded riders...it would be much fairer I think.... I always found it odd and unfair that a rider could be out of a job or a team because his average was 0.1 of a point too high....averages are open to mis use anyway.....there has to be some sort of team strength control but I think it has to be something a bit more flexible than averages... So what you think is much fairer is to grade riders, which means the riders at the bottom of the grading will not be wanted while those at the top will be in demand. Lets assume Grade 5 is 3-5 point average, and grade 4 is 5.01 to 6.50 and you have only enough to sign a grade 5 rider, you basically have enough to sign a rider on up to 5, what if the rider you want is 5.01? How is it any different? In fact it's worse as why would you sign a 5.01 rider in grade 4 when you could sing a 6.50 rider?! Grading is a silly idea and a points limit works just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 If the 4 ride average makes no sense, neither does the 'race average' as its just the race average x 4. A per-ride average would be more sensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 A per-ride average would be more sensible. Not really, it would only be a variation on the CMA as it is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 A per-ride average would be more sensible. Same thing in essence.. You'd also really get some people worked up as they'd be bleating that no 1's were averaging the same as junior no 7's in the good old days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 A per-ride average would be more sensible. It's not more or less sensible but it would be easier to understand. Thought can you imagine the BSPA introducing this one in Novembers AGM and saying the points limit is being dropped to 6?! People would freak out about how rubbish the league has become Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 It's not more or less sensible but it would be easier to understand. How is it less sensible? People then have an idea roughly how many points a rider scores each outing, rather than a notional 'match' score that just seems to confuse a significant number of fans. Thought can you imagine the BSPA introducing this one in Novembers AGM and saying the points limit is being dropped to 6? How would it be 6? It should be 10.5 or possibly 8.5, but the points limit doesn't bear much relation to match scores anyway. Happiness is not 43-41 and never was... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Personally I'd go for 28 Heat Meetings as it would solve a lot of the woes of British Speedway. Instead of the Nominated Heat, just repeat the standard 14 heats. You get significantly more heats in an evening. And 28 heats times 6 points per heat equals 168 divide by 14 riders (7 per team) = 12.00. That gives you 14 world class (all time greats) per meeting. Perfection (literally). Surely that's the way to go !!! The only problem with that is that I don't fancy getting my Breakfast at the Track. Just imagine how long a Meeting like that would take. After having ploughed through all of the recent Posts on this Topic - I have decided that this Thread is far too complicated for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 How is it less sensible? People then have an idea roughly how many points a rider scores each outing, rather than a notional 'match' score that just seems to confuse a significant number of fans. It's not more or less sensible because it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. How would it be 6? It should be 10.5 or possibly 8.5, but the points limit doesn't bear much relation to match scores anyway. Happiness is not 43-41 and never was... D'oh. Of course it would be 10.5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Just imagine how long a Meeting like that would take. Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to run a heat, including two minute warnings and allowances for re-runs. So that's 140 minutes, and even if you add in some time for grading, it could all be done and dusted in under 2.5 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to run a heat, including two minute warnings and allowances for re-runs. So that's 140 minutes, and even if you add in some time for grading, it could all be done and dusted in under 2.5 hours. Could be and would be are two very different things - especially in Speedway. How many times do we read, on here, about Meetings lasting for 2.5 Hours or even 3.0 Hours? THAT is only for Fifteen Heats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Leslie Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 It's not more or less sensible because it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Mathematically it wouldn't make any difference, but in reality some people would find it harder to grasp the smaller numbers (and we've seen how easily confused some fans are). The current averages give a rough indication of what a rider should score from his 4 programmed rides, and most can gauge the difference in ability between (say) a 6.84 rider and a 5.93 rider.....but could they so easily gauge the comparable abilities of a 1.710 rider against a 1.483 rider? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Happiness is not 43-41 and never was... It was for about a decade post-war Humph Although they had 8-man teams then (top six 4 rides each and two reserves 2 rides each). All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 It was for about a decade post-war Humph Although they had 8-man teams then (top six 4 rides each and two reserves 2 rides each). Yes I know, but I didn't want to over-complicate things even more. How many times do we read, on here, about Meetings lasting for 2.5 Hours or even 3.0 Hours? THAT is only for Fifteen Heats. Yes, but that's ridiculous and is one of the reasons why the sport has gone down the pan. I remember when 15 heats was done and dusted in an hour-and-quarter, leaving time for an interval and then another 5 or 6 heats for the juniors. All usually before 9.30pm. Things started to get strung-out when the junior matches got abolished, and they had to start making meetings appear better value for money than they actually were. In my view, there should be 20 heats per meeting. Say 14 heats for the main match (maybe with 6 rider teams) and then a 6 heat individual competition (including juniors) counting towards a cumulative seasonal competition. Maybe you could even award bonus league points for the 'second half'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Yes I know, but I didn't want to over-complicate things even more. Yes, but that's ridiculous and is one of the reasons why the sport has gone down the pan. I remember when 15 heats was done and dusted in an hour-and-quarter, leaving time for an interval and then another 5 or 6 heats for the juniors. All usually before 9.30pm. Things started to get strung-out when the junior matches got abolished, and they had to start making meetings appear better value for money than they actually were. In my view, there should be 20 heats per meeting. Say 14 heats for the main match (maybe with 6 rider teams) and then a 6 heat individual competition (including juniors) counting towards a cumulative seasonal competition. Maybe you could even award bonus league points for the 'second half'. i) Agreed. ii) Some good constructive suggestions there Humphrey. Let's hope that the 'Powers that be' read them and inwardly digest. People would be getting more Value for Money too, it might bring some folk back to the Sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 How is it less sensible? People then have an idea roughly how many points a rider scores each outing, rather than a notional 'match' score that just seems to confuse a significant number of fans. Any fan who is getting confused would be confused regardless of the average system. Even the dimmest speedway fan understands an 11pt rider is brilliant, a 3pt rider isn't. What they don't grasp is the effect league sizes and race formats have on averages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybikespeedway Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I think a percentage of opposition riders met v riders beaten is a far better way of judging a riders worth EG riders met 8 riders beat 4 = 50%, no point in points grabbing off you team mate it wont make any difference, this could be used instead of CMA or alongside it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I think a percentage of opposition riders met v riders beaten is a far better way of judging a riders worth EG riders met 8 riders beat 4 = 50%, no point in points grabbing off you team mate it wont make any difference, this could be used instead of CMA or alongside it Think you have to factor in who he has raced against i.e if it is against Nicki P or Josh Auty.You should also factor in which gates he was on and if he was coming back from injury or needed to go to the toilet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I think a percentage of opposition riders met v riders beaten is a far better way of judging a riders worth EG riders met 8 riders beat 4 = 50%, no point in points grabbing off you team mate it wont make any difference, this could be used instead of CMA or alongside it As a stats guy, I love that idea. But I'm not sure it's the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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