John Cook Talks A Lot Of Sense

[ch958]

Not really in nearly match even in the old days there was likely to be a guest it's the nature of the sport ...you said that any match with a guest had no meaning ...in a sport that has always had them and and when no one has come up with a better idea on how to replace missing or injured riders your comment is way over the top .

ok

[tocha]

Hardly surprising when the away team turns up with 4 guests

 

I went to Rye House today with their opponents Berwick had three guests plus RR and Rye one guest and RR. Guests and RR doesn't have any impact on the racing, in fact, it enhanced it today with Berwick booking Michael Palm-Toft who went through the card, 17+1. The racing and overtaking/re-overtaking in nearly every heat made it the best meeting I've seen this year.

[The Third Man]

Not really it's just another example of someone putting down speedway today from a rule that was in force when they went .

 

when I started going there were guests for your no 1 only, not for reserves, no 8s replaced reserves

 

RR for 2nd and 3rd heatleaders, not anyone in the top five, if both teams had rr then no 8s were promoted

 

if both teams were missing a number 1 no guests, no 8s were promoted

 

this led to the majority of matches being 7 a side matches, anyone remember what they were

 

so when I started going it was nothing like today

 

and we had proper reserves in the old BL not juniors as we have today in the EL

 

I went to Rye House today with their opponents Berwick had three guests plus RR and Rye one guest and RR. Guests and RR doesn't have any impact on the racing, in fact, it enhanced it today with Berwick booking Michael Palm-Toft who went through the card, 17+1. The racing and overtaking/re-overtaking in nearly every heat made it the best meeting I've seen this year.

 

so you had a PL select against a PL select, if that was not dressed up as a PL match but listed as a challenge match would everyone there today have gone?

Edited May 31, 2015 by The Third Man

[orion]

 

when I started going there were guests for your no 1 only, not for reserves, no 8s replaced reserves

 

RR for 2nd and 3rd heatleaders, not anyone in the top five, if both teams had rr then no 8s were promoted

 

if both teams were missing a number 1 no guests, no 8s were promoted

 

this led to the majority of matches being 7 a side matches, anyone remember what they were

 

so when I started going it was nothing like today

 

and we had proper reserves in the old BL not juniors as we have today in the EL

So there were guests then ?

[The Third Man]

So there were guests then ?

 

 

I am sure you read what I put but just to summarise for you, there were guests, but about as many in a season as we get in a month now, so guests yes, but not the same as today, which was your point I was answering.

[E I Addio]

The KOC failed because the promoters treated it as an irrelevant after thought and run it in September and October. Have it do EVERY KOC meeting (in the same round obviously) takes place in the same week. We all know then when the KOC meetings will take place in March. Round would could be sometimes in April, round two in May or June. And the final in July or August. Have actual dates for it, make it a big thing. Have the KOC draw live on twitter the day after the last meeting (or the following Tuesday as thats BSPA meeting day) and you could make a big thing of it.

 

Not trying to squash meetings in after the league is over and it's cold and wet.

Absolutely no point in any of that as long as the winner is more or less dictated by the EDR draw.

[speedwaysliders]

So there were guests then ?

I dont understand what mission you are on!!! One guest every now and again is just about bareable,but its getting so stupid now that you really cant defend the amount of guests and the reasons being used to use them.

1.guest for a rider, riding in another country for another of his teams!!(no limit to how many counties a rider can rid in!!

2 Guest for doubleling up riders in the uk who cant be in two places at once.CRAZY

How do you explain that,when your making your own problem,its crazy

[cityrebel]

I went to Rye House today with their opponents Berwick had three guests plus RR and Rye one guest and RR. Guests and RR doesn't have any impact on the racing, in fact, it enhanced it today with Berwick booking Michael Palm-Toft who went through the card, 17+1. The racing and overtaking/re-overtaking in nearly every heat made it the best meeting I've seen this year.

i totally agree with you, it was an excellent meeting tonight. I went there expecting very little, and it ended up being a cracker!

[orion]

I dont understand what mission you are on!!! One guest every now and again is just about bareable,but its getting so stupid now that you really cant defend the amount of guests and the reasons being used to use them.

1.guest for a rider, riding in another country for another of his teams!!(no limit to how many counties a rider can rid in!!

2 Guest for doubleling up riders in the uk who cant be in two places at once.CRAZY

How do you explain that,when your making your own problem,its crazy

The post I was replying to someone who said that any meeting with a guest is pointless not 2.3 or 4 any guest ..as I have pointed out there has always been guests and even in the good old day there would be at least one ....as I said many times before I don't like guests but intill the people who moan about them all the time like you come with a idea that works is fair and won't effect the crowd numbers they are here to stay .

[Grand Central]

The post I was replying to someone who said that any meeting with a guest is pointless not 2.3 or 4 any guest ..as I have pointed out there has always been guests and even in the good old day there would be at least one ....as I said many times before I don't like guests but intill the people who moan about them all the time like you come with a idea that works is fair and won't effect the crowd numbers they are here to stay .

 

This is factually incorrect.

 

From 1968 to 1988, the regulations for Second Division/National League allowed for a guest ONLY where a rider was on international duty.

That was obviously very, very rarely used.

There was never a statutory facility for a guest for any other reason during this time.

As with everything in Speedway it was the 'special dispensations' that came in from the early eighties that led to, sadly, more relaxation later.

 

But for most of those twenty years most tracks hardly ever saw a second tier league match with any guests, at all.

 

Edited May 31, 2015 by Grand Central

[speedwaysliders]

The post I was replying to someone who said that any meeting with a guest is pointless not 2.3 or 4 any guest ..as I have pointed out there has always been guests and even in the good old day there would be at least one ....as I said many times before I don't like guests but intill the people who moan about them all the time like you come with a idea that works is fair and won't effect the crowd numbers they are here to stay .

Mate ,the powers that be,arnt trying to solve the problem,infact they going the other way and welcoming guests because they have created this for themselves by allowing uk riders to double up,and not thinking about rider injury.Crazy,stupid,and a load of other words i wont type

[Humphrey Appleby]

There was never a statutory facility for a guest for any other reason during this time.

As with everything in Speedway it was the 'special dispensations' that came in from the early eighties that led to, sadly, more relaxation later.

But for most of those twenty years most tracks hardly ever saw a second tier league match with any guests, at all.

 

My memory is that guests were fairly rare in the NL, and rider replacement was more commonly used. I also seem to recall that at some point missing riders of equal status cancelled each other out, with no facility allowed for either team.

 

Even in the BL there was stricter application of the guest facility, and it was not uncommon to see replacement juniors having to be used. I suppose the rot started when the BL started allowing guests for reserves, but that was also partly due to the falling out with the NL where using replacements from there was banned. It just sums up how speedway constantly shoots itself in the foot.

 

Of course, in those days it was much less common for riders to have multiple league commitments. I think a few BL riders were riding in the Swedish, Danish and German leagues in the 80s, but that was relatively few fixtures and usually on days when BL teams didn't race.

[Lord Skid]

Does John Cook risk his own money, or is he just using someone else's cheque book, probably starting to realise the gravy train is coming off the rails fast.

[Bagpuss]

The post I was replying to someone who said that any meeting with a guest is pointless not 2.3 or 4 any guest ..as I have pointed out there has always been guests and even in the good old day there would be at least one ....as I said many times before I don't like guests but intill the people who moan about them all the time like you come with a idea that works is fair and won't effect the crowd numbers they are here to stay .

Better fixture planning would eliminate the need for many guests for a start. Poor fixture planning is speedway's biggest problem at the moment I'd say.

 

Guests are a necessary evil but I think it would be realistic to restrict them to covering for number ones and perhaps a guest pool for reserves. No reason why the other team positions can't be covered by a squad system, there are plenty of riders in the PL who would be capable and no doubt several who don't ride over here who would be happy to do so for a limited number of meetings.

 

I don't see us ever being able to operate without guests but I'm sure the number used can be dramatically reduced, people are fed up of seeing teams turn up with three or four riders who aren't their own.

[mikebv]

I went to Rye House today with their opponents Berwick had three guests plus RR and Rye one guest and RR. Guests and RR doesn't have any impact on the racing, in fact, it enhanced it today with Berwick booking Michael Palm-Toft who went through the card, 17+1. The racing and overtaking/re-overtaking in nearly every heat made it the best meeting I've seen this year.

and that sounds like a great afternoon of entertainment...

 

however, in the context of what is supposed to be a professional team sport which names a 'Champion' every year, it is a farce...

 

maybe the simple answer is to dispense with team speedway altogether and just run individual events or maybe run the sport like Rugby Union used to be, ie no league table just 'head to head' battles through the season...

 

if you want to run the sport as a league, with winners at the end of the season, then there has to be integrity within the process that gets you to that final position..

 

currently british speedway does not provide that, but needs to quickly if it isnt to alienate even more of its ever dwindling fanbase

Edited June 1, 2015 by mikebv

[ch958]

The post I was replying to someone who said that any meeting with a guest is pointless not 2.3 or 4 any guest ..as I have pointed out there has always been guests and even in the good old day there would be at least one ....as I said many times before I don't like guests but intill the people who moan about them all the time like you come with a idea that works is fair and won't effect the crowd numbers they are here to stay .

squads

[IainB]

For me you can tinker about with all the rules you want, I personally hate the double points rule but it hasn't stopped me going. 10 or so years ago you'd hear the promoters say "we know we've got a good product", I think it's finally dawning on some of them that they haven't. You can try and spin a match out as long as you like trying to fool punters into thinking they're getting value for money, the thing is we're not thick. All I want to see when I go is a good competitive match with some decent racing, not every race is going to be a corker but I believe the trouble at the moment is you're lucky if you see 2 good (and I mean really exciting) races from 15. Yes you can play with the rules to make matches closer thus meaning heats become more important in the context of the overall match, at the moment the sport is geared up for home wins (supposedly to keep the home punters happy), the team manager is totally trussed up in what he can do.

 

I don't want to say things were always better in the olden days as speedway has progressed a lot since the 60's 70's & 80's, it's certainly a lot more colourful but take a look on you tube, there are a couple of interesting documentaries on there about John Davis and Ivan Mauger. You can see that what the sport has evolved into bears little resemblance to those days, the bikes are far too fast these days to produce decent racing (at most British tracks anyway), the bikes have outgrown British tracks, bikes in the old era were at top speed halfway down the straight, these days they're still accelerating into the bends. How you address this without some kind of worldwide reduction in power I don't know. But too often nowadays it's who gates blasts off into the distance never to be even challenged, then the same rider can reel off a number of wins and then look like a novice when they miss the gate and trail around at the back not even challenging

[The White Knight]

The post I was replying to someone who said that any meeting with a guest is pointless not 2.3 or 4 any guest ..as I have pointed out there has always been guests and even in the good old day there would be at least one ....as I said many times before I don't like guests but intill the people who moan about them all the time like you come with a idea that works is fair and won't effect the crowd numbers they are here to stay .

Nobody is saying there wasn't orion.

 

However, in the olden days they were very rare indeed. In the British League Division 2 you could go a whole Season without ever seeing a Guest Rider at your Club. Even you will have to admit that these days Guests are the norm and not the exception.

 

Read carefully the last Paragraph of iainb's excellent Post. He gives a number of very valid reasons for the proliferation of Guests.

 

A suggestion, since you asked for one, could be that every Club have a Number 8. They must use him before any Guests are used. That would not stop Guests but it would cut them down quite a bit.

[orion]

 

 

A suggestion, since you asked for one, could be that every Club have a Number 8. They must use him before any Guests are used. That would not stop Guests but it would cut them down quite a bit.

Yet another thing that has ben answered a million times ...you can't replace number 1's with number 8's as it effects the crowds to much ...time and time again people come up with dumb idea's with zero thought to the money side of the sport ...as I said when someone comes up with a squad system that covers all angles let me know

[The White Knight]

Yet another thing that has ben answered a million times ...you can't replace number 1's with number 8's as it effects the crowds to much ...time and time again people come up with dumb idea's with zero thought to the money side of the sport ...as I said when someone comes up with a squad system that covers all angles let me know

I notice you never mention, or indeed quoted the other Section of my Post.

 

I thought someone already stated, and I agree with them, that a Guest for a Number One is to be expected - Guests for other Team Members should not be.

 

I really would appreciate ii if you would refrain from misrepresenting my Comments.