Humphrey Appleby Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) How would the punter of the Grand National feel if they had the top 4 horses over the line having to race off against each other as many times as the speedway teams do to be called the Grand National winner. They would be up in arms.It's not really a fair comparison. The Grand National is a one-off event itself, and one that's something of a lottery in terms of who comes out the winner. I think it's reasonable for people to have different views on the righteousness of 'playoffs', even if they work very well in highly successful sports like the NFL, but I don't see they're the reason why fans have drifted away from the sport in droves. This is the problem with fan forums - the focus ends up on minutiae which are not the primary reasons for the sport being in an ever decreasing circle. Edited May 31, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 How would the punter of the Grand National feel if they had the top 4 horses over the line having to race off against each other as many times as the speedway teams do to be called the Grand National winner. They would be up in arms. But the majority of speedway supporters, seem to love this stupid system that, was drempt up by the BPSA and SKY. Fans all over the world in loads of sports love play offs ...yet another myth that somehow it's only be bad in speedway ...yet again when comes to double points as I said before those same fans who say they don't go anymore were quite happy to go when you could have unlimited tac subs etc . Speedway has many problems but most of reasons tend to be stupid ones or old people wanting the rules to be the same when they used to go even thou those rules were just as daft . 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Third Man Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Referring to the double points thing, I have never liked it, getting extra for doing the same as you would for getting 3 points I have never understood, at least with the old system you had to gain the points. however what really brought it home to me how micky mouse it is was when I was watching the Glasgow Sheffield match on TV. when Sheffield went 10 points down and Tatum said that because of being 10 points down they could nominate a rider to get double points, really reminded me of the serious sport of "Its a knockout" 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted May 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) It's not about using a computer programme, it's about taking the right meetings into account. Belle Vue had two riders missing last night due to World U21 commitments. Clearly World U21 meetings weren't taken into account when producing the fixtures because Lakeside hadn't had a home meeting for three weeks and Belle Vue had no other Friday fixtures in May so there were plenty of opportunities to hold this meeting when riders were available. What you suggest would require something called common sense and planning, alas qualities lacking in the majority of those who run speedway. It would be nice to see the team that actually finished top of the leagues get some sort of recognition for actally winning the league, but no, they have to go and take the top four finishers and after that who ever wins is declared the league chamoion. So the ppor sod who has done all the hard work all year can then end up falling at the last hurdle and finishing fourth. If they want to carry on with this then at least call the team that wins the league winner and the four teams that ride against each other, at least lets have it as a seperate tounament with a cup, but not to see who wins the league. Somehow it despoils all the hard work done throughout the year, by the true wining team. How would the punter of the Grand National feel if they had the top 4 horses over the line having to race off against each other as many times as the speedway teams do to be called the Grand National winner. They would be up in arms. But the majority of speedway supporters, seem to love this stupid system that, was drempt up by the BPSA and SKY. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ They do get recognition, they get a trophy and a mention in Speedway Star. Then they have to decimate their winning team to get below the team average for the following season. Is this because the promoters aren't on the ball when it comes to music, I'm old but I like loads of modern music, I love loads of old music too, a mixture is the way to go. Come on you 20 somethings, what else do u want? On the other hand it could be he has now seen the light I don't mind my Lakeside trips must admit, the mic man is bias towards the home team and that is how it should be, the track staff should all be high fiving their riders, playing some winning music (wipe out used to be played at Peterborough when they 5-1'd, it annoyed me sooooo much) etc. That just winds the away fans up which ultimately makes for extra atmosphere. Better excuse my language now lol The promoters and riders just need to think about what the fans want to hear and see and put it into action, I don't think it would be very hard to turn things around for the current fans, if they can get the basics right then hopefully it will attract newbies? The fixture list, rules and double uppers etc, more difficult to get right! _________________________________________________________________________________________________ I suggested to my teams promoter that they should bring back the music jingles, which they used to have, and was told that I'm the only one that wants them, this came as a surprise to me and obviously I must have missed the meeting when the fans were asked. Edited May 31, 2015 by oldtimer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 promoters are the problem! promoters decide the rules , promoters bend the rules , promoters use the rules to there own teams advantage to the detriment of the sport, independant ruling body is needed, A STRONG independent body is needed - one with the cojones to upset individual promoters for the greater good Yeah, OK, lets get rid of the problem. Tony Mole, Nigel Pearson, Buster Chapman, Matt Ford, Chris Van Straaten, etc etc... they'll all be put up against a wall and shot at dawn. That'll help won't it? So the plan is to have a new and independent governing body. OK... A few little questions: 1. Who is going to appoint the people in this independent governing body? 2. Who, of those people worth their salt, would want to serve in this independent governing body? 3. Who is going to pay the people who are going to serve in this independent governing body? Try this out...take your concept of speedway as a business model to the Dragons Den on telly, and see if anyone will invest in it. Lakeside have one of the best web sites, but there still doesn't seem to be any feature that allows for a two-way communication with the promoters. e-mail??? - NOT all communication has to be in public. Young people get their information from their mobile phones: ALL speedway clubs should remember this. And so should the BSPA - have you tried using the BSPA site on your mobile phone? Clearly World U21 meetings weren't taken into account when producing the fixtures because Lakeside hadn't had a home meeting for three weeks and Belle Vue had no other Friday fixtures in May so there were plenty of opportunities to hold this meeting when riders were available. Last I heard, Jon Cook is responsible for the EL fixtures, and he has "form" for forgetting about FIM fixtures when compiling the EL fixture list. He did exactly the same a couple of years ago when he scheduled Lakeside at home to Birmingham a few years ago, only for it to dawn on him a week beforehand that due to the training requirements, 3 of his riders would be unavailable for the Friday EL meeting, so he had to ask Birmingham for a postponement...after Brummies fans had taken time off work, booked travel, accommodation etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 1. Who is going to appoint the people in this independent governing body? 2. Who, of those people worth their salt, would want to serve in this independent governing body? 3. Who is going to pay the people who are going to serve in this independent governing body? The promoters appoint a Commissioner or (say) three Commissioners for a contract period (say 5 years) to run the sport. The Commissioner(s) should have no connection with any existing promotion. The BSPA determines the general rules for running the sport, but the Commissioner(s) are empowered with the day-to-day implementation and interpretation of those rules, as well as dealing with disciplinary matters. At the end of the contract period, the BSPA is free to hire or fire the Commissioner(s), but that decision would need to be made on the basis of their overall performance over their period in office. It's how most North American sports work, although whoever would want to take the job in speedway is a more pertinent question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Fans all over the world in loads of sports love play offs ...yet another myth that somehow it's only be bad in speedway ...yet again when comes to double points as I said before those same fans who say they don't go anymore were quite happy to go when you could have unlimited tac subs etc. Exactly. And those same fans who say they don't go anymore because of the tactical ride still watch it on TV , so what's the. difference ? A tac ride is a tac ride whether it's on TV or watching it live. Last I heard, Jon Cook is responsible for the EL fixtures,etc. Oh really ? Who did you hear that from ? A bloke in the pub ? Someone who said he was " in the know"? Someone who knew someone who knew someone whose mate knew something ? I heard that Lakeside were moving to Sittingbourne next year but that wasn't true either. The MC are responsible for the fixtures. Jon Cook is even not on the MC, so yet again more forum gossip is dressed up as fact, meanwhile speedway's real problems rumble on, completely unnoticed by those that just like a good moan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) It would be nice to see the team that actually finished top of the leagues get some sort of recognition for actally winning the league, but no, they have to go and take the top four finishers and after that who ever wins is declared the league chamoion. So the ppor sod who has done all the hard work all year can then end up falling at the last hurdle and finishing fourth. If they want to carry on with this then at least call the team that wins the league winner and the four teams that ride against each other, at least lets have it as a seperate tounament with a cup, but not to see who wins the league. Somehow it despoils all the hard work done throughout the year, by the true wining team. How would the punter of the Grand National feel if they had the top 4 horses over the line having to race off against each other as many times as the speedway teams do to be called the Grand National winner. They would be up in arms. But the majority of speedway supporters, seem to love this stupid system that, was drempt up by the BPSA and SKY. So if the majority are happy what's so stupid about it and If the majority are happy why change it to suit the minority? Edited May 31, 2015 by pugwash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 I totally agree with that, but I don't see any answer while the EL remains in its present form . I love top league racing and would hate to see it go but it may be inevitable. Jon Cook said in his notes that he and Stuart Douglas have no interest in PL in its present form but would be attracted to to some kind of expanded regional competition. I don't quite know what he had in mind but that may well be where it all finishes up. A merged EL/PL split on a regional basis with an NL beneath it. That would satisfy the promotion's desire to compete at the highest level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 It would be nice to see the team that actually finished top of the leagues get some sort of recognition for actally winning the league, but no, they have to go and take the top four finishers and after that who ever wins is declared the league chamoion. So the ppor sod who has done all the hard work all year can then end up falling at the last hurdle and finishing fourth. If they want to carry on with this then at least call the team that wins the league winner and the four teams that ride against each other, at least lets have it as a seperate tounament with a cup, but not to see who wins the league. Somehow it despoils all the hard work done throughout the year, by the true wining team. How would the punter of the Grand National feel if they had the top 4 horses over the line having to race off against each other as many times as the speedway teams do to be called the Grand National winner. They would be up in arms. But the majority of speedway supporters, seem to love this stupid system that, was drempt up by the BPSA and SKY. the league winners are the champions and the top 4 go into a play off championship - call it what you will that way its win win both camps get what they want 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 the league winners are the champions and the top 4 go into a play off championship - call it what you will that way its win win both camps get what they want No it won't ..yet again another thing that has to be explain time and time again without the league title at stakes the play offs would mean nothing to the riders mangerment and most important the fans who would not turn up meaning big losses to the clubs . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Fans all over the world in loads of sports love play offs ...yet another myth that somehow it's only be bad in speedway ...yet again when comes to double points as I said before those same fans who say they don't go anymore were quite happy to go when you could have unlimited tac subs etc . Speedway has many problems but most of reasons tend to be stupid ones or old people wanting the rules to be the same when they used to go even thou those rules were just as daft . Well, certainly a hell of a lot more people went to Speedway, when those stupid Rules applied (as you put it), than do now. Perhaps those 'old people' that you are so quick to denigrate and sneer at have a point. You should also remember that without those 'old people' who supported the Sport for years - you would, in all probability, have no Speedway to support at all. Exactly. And those same fans who say they don't go anymore because of the tactical ride still watch it on TV , so what's the. difference ? A tac ride is a tac ride whether it's on TV or watching it live. Oh really ? Who did you hear that from ? A bloke in the pub ? Someone who said he was " in the know"? Someone who knew someone who knew someone whose mate knew something ? I heard that Lakeside were moving to Sittingbourne next year but that wasn't true either. The MC are responsible for the fixtures. Jon Cook is even not on the MC, so yet again more forum gossip is dressed up as fact, meanwhile speedway's real problems rumble on, completely unnoticed by those that just like a good moan. The difference is that I am not supporting something that I am so totally against in principle. I can watch it, get annoyed at the Black and White Helmet coming out without losing my temper and making a fool of myself at the Track. I would love to go to Speedway again- but I won't as long as the 'Double Points' Rule exists. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Referring to the double points thing, I have never liked it, getting extra for doing the same as you would for getting 3 points I have never understood, at least with the old system you had to gain the points. however what really brought it home to me how micky mouse it is was when I was watching the Glasgow Sheffield match on TV. when Sheffield went 10 points down and Tatum said that because of being 10 points down they could nominate a rider to get double points, really reminded me of the serious sport of "Its a knockout" But when a team was only 6 points down in the old days and a double tac come out it was great no doubt great ..a world champion could replace a reserve etc . the old rule was just as mickey mouse . Edited May 31, 2015 by orion 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 But when a team was only 6 points down in the old days and a double tac come out it was great no doubt great ..a world champion could replace a reserve etc . the old rule was just as mickey mouse . I do not agree with any Tactical Ride - no matter how it is conceived. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Well, certainly a hell of a lot more people went to Speedway, when those stupid Rules applied (as you put it), than do now. And that is the point as has been explained those rules were just as stupid in fact in my eyes more ...so it's quite clear is has no bearing on the state of the crowds . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 And that is the point as has been explained those rules were just as stupid in fact in my eyes more ...so it's quite clear is has no bearing on the state of the crowds . I'm sorry you are wrong. I don't go anymore because of 'Double Points'. How many more people, who do not go on Speedway Forums, have left the Sport as I have because of various Rule changes over the years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 I can remember when one Arthur Price (number 1 rider) would refuse to ride in heat 8 as a Tac rider because he did not want his average to be lowered by an inform number 2 (second string) or possibly an inform number 7 reserve rider lowering his average to. I remember Arthur Price BC. A very good Rider as was Carl Glover. Those were indeed the days!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 I'm sorry you are wrong. I don't go anymore because of 'Double Points'. How many more people, who do not go on Speedway Forums, have left the Sport as I have because of various Rule changes over the years? ..... No I am correct as I said they had just as many stupid rules in the old days when the crowds were massive ..so people said they stopped going were lying to themselves ...as someone has pointed out if don't like double points why are you watching it on the tv ? after all it's the same rule if you are watching it live on if it's on sky . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 No I am correct as I said they had just as many stupid rules in the old days when the crowds were massive ..so people said they stopped going were lying to themselves ...as someone has pointed out if don't like double points why are you watching it on the tv ? after all it's the same rule if you are watching it live on if it's on sky . Were they now. Are you Mystic Meg? You can tell when people are lying to themselves? Clever that......................... :rolleyes: Because when I get angry about it, which I do, I, as I have already said can rant and rave about it to myself - and not do so in Public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted May 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Yeah, OK, lets get rid of the problem. Tony Mole, Nigel Pearson, Buster Chapman, Matt Ford, Chris Van Straaten, etc etc... they'll all be put up against a wall and shot at dawn. That'll help won't it? It's a start. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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