E I Addio Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Yet another thing that has ben answered a million times ...you can't replace number 1's with number 8's as it effects the crowds to much ...time and time again people come up with dumb idea's with zero thought to the money side of the sport ...as I said when someone comes up with a squad system that covers all angles let me know That is exactly right. The problem will not be solved by going for squads, number 8s or anything else to do wit team structure. It is far better to take an intelligent approach to fixtures so riders do not finish up with two meetings for different teams on the same night. Unfortunately that is easier said than done partly because the PL are not interested in co-operating with anyone about anything, hence they won't get involved with the fast track for example. The other difficulties are Sky constantly messing about with fixtures and the number of GP meetings, SWC , U/21 championships and the various qualifiers., not to mention difficulties with rain offs. No easy answer but it requires a degree of co-ordination and co-Operarion that the BSPA is not exactly famous for. I notice you never mention, or indeed quoted the other Section of my Post. I thought someone already stated, and I agree with them, that a Guest for a Number One is to be expected - Guests for other Team Members should not be. I really would appreciate ii if you would refrain from misrepresenting my Comments. So if you have a situation like Lakeside last Monday, or Belle Vue last Friday where over half your team are doubling up elsewhere or riding in WC qualifiers where do your riders come from if you can't have guests? As I said in the previous post the real fault is with the fixture list not whether you ban guests. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I notice you never mention, or indeed quoted the other Section of my Post. I thought someone already stated, and I agree with them, that a Guest for a Number One is to be expected - Guests for other Team Members should not be. I really would appreciate ii if you would refrain from misrepresenting my Comments. I never did ..you said that number 8's should come in and guest ..you never anything about it not being for number one's . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Nobody is saying there wasn't orion. However, in the olden days they were very rare indeed. In the British League Division 2 you could go a whole Season without ever seeing a Guest Rider at your Club. Even you will have to admit that these days Guests are the norm and not the exception. Read carefully the last Paragraph of iainb's excellent Post. He gives a number of very valid reasons for the proliferation of Guests. A suggestion, since you asked for one, could be that every Club have a Number 8. They must use him before any Guests are used. That would not stop Guests but it would cut them down quite a bit. Maybe just changing rider replacement rules would be the simplest way? No1_missing then the second and third heat leaders can take two of his rides each? (Or anyone the manager sees fit can take a Max of two each)? Eg No Zagar then Nicholls and Cook could take two more rides each. Use his 'tyre' too... For riders missing down the order then the one above can take one ride (as currently) but the other three can be taken by the two riders below the missing rider, eg Nichols missing, then Zagar takes one, Cook takes two and Fricke takes the other.. Lots of riders have taken seven rides during a meeting down the years so not a new invention.. Maybe six rider teams would also help? Keep two FSR's and it would mean only four other riders needed. This would mean some riders with no team place who could then be on stand by to replace either injuries or out of form riders (just like 'normal sports')...!!!! Edited June 1, 2015 by mikebv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Maybe just changing rider replacement rules would be the simplest way? No1_missing then the second and third heat leaders can take two of his rides each? (Or anyone the manager sees fit can take a Max of two each)? Eg No Zagar then Nicholls and Cook could take two more rides each. Use his 'tyre' too... For riders missing down the order then the one above can take one ride (as currently) but the other three can be taken by the two riders below the missing rider, eg Nichols missing, then Zagar takes one, Cook takes two and Fricke takes the other.. Lots of riders have taken seven rides during a meeting down the years so not a new invention.. Maybe six rider teams would also help? Keep two FSR's and it would mean only four other riders needed. This would mean some riders with no team place who could then be on stand by to replace either injuries or out of form riders (just like 'normal sports')...!!!! Actually - I quite like that idea. It could work it seems to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Maybe just changing rider replacement rules would be the simplest way? No1_missing then the second and third heat leaders can take two of his rides each? (Or anyone the manager sees fit can take a Max of two each)? Eg No Zagar then Nicholls and Cook could take two more rides each. Use his 'tyre' too... For riders missing down the order then the one above can take one ride (as currently) but the other three can be taken by the two riders below the missing rider, eg Nichols missing, then Zagar takes one, Cook takes two and Fricke takes the other.. Lots of riders have taken seven rides during a meeting down the years so not a new invention.. Maybe six rider teams would also help? Keep two FSR's and it would mean only four other riders needed. This would mean some riders with no team place who could then be on stand by to replace either injuries or out of form riders (just like 'normal sports')...!!!! I see no reason why everyone under the riders average cannot take 2 rides, or even 3 tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 For me you can tinker about with all the rules you want, I personally hate the double points rule but it hasn't stopped me going. 10 or so years ago you'd hear the promoters say "we know we've got a good product", I think it's finally dawning on some of them that they haven't. You can try and spin a match out as long as you like trying to fool punters into thinking they're getting value for money, the thing is we're not thick. All I want to see when I go is a good competitive match with some decent racing, not every race is going to be a corker but I believe the trouble at the moment is you're lucky if you see 2 good (and I mean really exciting) races from 15. Yes you can play with the rules to make matches closer thus meaning heats become more important in the context of the overall match, at the moment the sport is geared up for home wins (supposedly to keep the home punters happy), the team manager is totally trussed up in what he can do. I don't want to say things were always better in the olden days as speedway has progressed a lot since the 60's 70's & 80's, it's certainly a lot more colourful but take a look on you tube, there are a couple of interesting documentaries on there about John Davis and Ivan Mauger. You can see that what the sport has evolved into bears little resemblance to those days, the bikes are far too fast these days to produce decent racing (at most British tracks anyway), the bikes have outgrown British tracks, bikes in the old era were at top speed halfway down the straight, these days they're still accelerating into the bends. How you address this without some kind of worldwide reduction in power I don't know. But too often nowadays it's who gates blasts off into the distance never to be even challenged, then the same rider can reel off a number of wins and then look like a novice when they miss the gate and trail around at the back not even challenging A great post one of the best ever,i loved the good old days like yourself and WK but we do realise things have changed .But for the BETTER that is debatable, going back in my memory i cannot remember endless guests being used number 8s yes which i agreed with but today guests are just the norm i am afraid.Is there a solution to guests i would say no to be honest, i think often when no 8s were used the teams often had two really good second/ third heat leaders which often sofened the blow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 good idea - i think i would limit it to 2 but yes good thinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I see no reason why everyone under the riders average cannot take 2 rides, or even 3 tbh. I can ..because before you know it teams would start pulling fast ones if it suited them and if they could work it to there advantage ..sadly another problem with rules in speedway is that teams will try to bend them . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I can ..because before you know it teams would start pulling fast ones if it suited them and if they could work it to there advantage ..sadly another problem with rules in speedway is that teams will try to bend them . any chance of a positive post - like what you might suggest rather than just telling everyone how wrong they are 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) any chance of a positive post - like what you might suggest rather than just telling everyone how wrong they are Your one of the most negative posters about modern speedway hence why we have topics like this in the first place ...do you even go to speedway ? When you put any idea or rule forward you look at the pro's and cons of it rather than saying it sounds great . Edited June 1, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I can ..because before you know it teams would start pulling fast ones if it suited them and if they could work it to there advantage ..sadly another problem with rules in speedway is that teams will try to bend them . Just like 'track specialist' guest riders turning up to replace injured riders in possession of a sick note written by Dr Zhivago.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Your one of the most negative posters about modern speedway hence why we have topics like this in the first place ...do you even go to speedway ? When you put any idea or rule forward you look at the pro's and cons of it rather than saying it sounds great . how about a few pros from you - you say I'm negative but i post as many pros and good ideas as i can think of you on the other hand appear to just knock everybody back like i said before - how about some ideas from you instead of picking holes in other's ideas do i go to speedway? I should imagine I've seen 800 speedway meetings and ridden a 2 valve Jawa at Felton for a short unsuccesful while so i think i know a bit to answer your question though in all honesty i don't at the moment because i can not afford it but thank you for asking Edited June 1, 2015 by ch958 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 how about a few pros from you - you say I'm negative but i post as many pros and good ideas as i can think of you on the other hand appear to just knock everybody back like i said before - how about some ideas from you instead of picking holes in other's ideas do i go to speedway? I should imagine I've seen 800 speedway meetings and ridden a 2 valve Jawa at Felton for a short unsuccesful while so i think i know a bit You have ridden a speedway bike ! wow they put you in charge of making the rules straight away Why would I need to come with idea's ? I understand at this present time there is no better idea than using guests . you on the other hand talk about squads without a clue on how they would work or how they would be paid for or how they would be used without effecting the size of the crowds I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) You have ridden a speedway bike ! wow they put you in charge of making the rules straight away Why would I need to come with idea's ? I understand at this present time there is no better idea than using guests . you on the other hand talk about squads without a clue on how they would work or how they would be paid for or how they would be used without effecting the size of the crowds I and you look like the deputy head of geography at an inner city comprehensive and your profile is "hilarious" and its affecting not effecting good night Edited June 1, 2015 by ch958 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) and you look the the deputy head of geography at an inner city comprehensive and your profile is "hilarious" and its affecting not effecting good night What is ..The The ...I thought they were a pop group ...reckon you should check your own posts first when going down that route . Edited June 1, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 What is ..The The ...I thought they were a pop group ...reckon you should check your own posts first you can have the last word - whenever you're ready good night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 you can have the last word - whenever you're ready good night Why do keep saying Good night and coming back ....it is some kind of Encore ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Why do keep saying Good night and coming back ....it is some kind of Encore ? yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 The promoters appoint a Commissioner or (say) three Commissioners for a contract period (say 5 years) to run the sport. The Commissioner(s) should have no connection with any existing promotion. Who would want to be a commissioner? What would be in it for them? If they were so good, wouldn't they have better (more profitable) things to do with their time? Who would make the appointments? What sort of salaries would these commissioners want, and who would pay them? Because at the end of the day, to get top quality people, you will have to pay way more than speedway can afford, and why won't those who pay the pipers still not be seen to be calling the tunes? Oh really ? Who did you hear that from ? A bloke in the pub ? Someone who said he was " in the know"? One of Birmingham's promotion team from a few years ago actually. Someone who knows the guy and would know what he's talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Who would want to be a commissioner? What would be in it for them? If they were so good, wouldn't they have better (more profitable) things to do with their time? Who would make the appointments? What sort of salaries would these commissioners want, and who would pay them? There are plenty of people who'd want to do it - whether or not they'd be suitable for the position is another question. Salary wise, you'd need to evaluate the market for comparison and it would depend on whether it was a full or part time job. However, I see a few commissioner type jobs in minor sports advertised around the 40-50K mark, which is low in my opinion, but I'd think you might attract some reasonable quality for 60-70K. Not everyone is in for the money. You might get a young enthusiastic individual on their way up in sports administration, or someone looking for a job for a few years before retirement. Appointment has already been dealt with - the BSPA would appoint, but it's different to having matters dealt with by a Management Committee full of self-interested promoters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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