mdmc82 Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Wow Arya, what do you do for a living for you to think £10,000 isn't a lot of money as to most of us is a huge amount. Not sure where you got that they would have made that kind of money either when there was only around 100 people at the most and some could have been season ticket holders or young fans that don't pay to get in. Then you have to take out the cost of stadium, points etc (how do you know how much that adds up to?) I don't think it's the voice of reason that needs to apply some common sense. As for teams moaning about money lost, wasn't it your team that called off a meeting when they had only Shamak missing as they said it would affect the crowd and cause financial loss 😉 Edited June 9, 2015 by mdmc82 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Wow Arya, what do you do for a living for you to think £10,000 isn't a lot of money as to most of us is a huge amount. Not sure where you got that they would have made that kind of money either when there was only around 100 people at the most and some could have been season ticket holders or young fans that don't pay to get in. Then you have to take out the cost of stadium, points etc (how do you know how much that adds up to?) I don't think it's the voice of reason that needs to apply some common sense. As for teams moaning about money lost, wasn't it your team that called off a meeting when they had only Shamak missing as they said it would affect the crowd and cause financial loss 😉 Coventry could have called it off too but they would have lost the sky money so they didnt want to and made every effort to get the meeting on.If they had won would they be wanting it re-staged? They knew the turnout would be low, they could have reduced the price but chose not to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPEEDY69 Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Key point for me is would there be less protestation had Coventry won? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R87 Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 About time we dispensed with Sky I'm afraid, the opportunity was there in the noughties to push our sport on to the next level but the people in charge as usual made a dog's breakfast out of it. I know clubs will lose income but I believe we need to get back to basics even if that means the few remaining big names being lost. This whole heat 10 business and the need for Sky to to show meetings whatever the weather in front of abysmal crowds needs to end. Time for regular fixtures with far fewer guests. Speedway had a great chance to set down some proper foundations in 1999 when Sky got involved with the Elite League. Sadly, the incompetence of the BSPA has led to this chance being frittered away and money which should have been invested into bringing the sport into the 21st century has instead gone into propping up the outdated model we now have. Now speedway has become so dependent on this money they cannot afford to lose the contract, as very few other broadcasters would touch it with a bargepole. Its savage indictment of the way the sport has been run in the UK, and more and more people are turning their backs in their droves. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice Of Reason Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Okay Arya, lets take it point by point. 1. £10,000 isn't that much money. - So you've said. However, without knowing the financial situation of the Coventry Promoter, how can you make such a judgement? 2. And if they get through the finals, which they will, then they will make that up and more in Sky money alone. - You've completely missed my point. This isn't about what they will make in the play-offs, its about what they lost out on financially last Monday. It's not about recovering a loss, it's about their expectation to make a profit on potentially their biggest gate of the season; coupled with additional monies accrued via the play-offs. Surely you can see that? 3. God some of you talk some nonsense. - Pot/Kettle. 4. Let's be realistic here for a second (Edit: sorry but I had to laugh at that comment). Coventry had to pay their stadium rent for the night, appearance fees and points money for their riders (bearing in mind they were only paying 22 points). - Ahhhh, I can feel some UNrealistic guesstimates coming on........so Coventry only had to pay 'appearance fees' and 'points money' for THEIR riders did they? Errrrrrrm, rrrrrrrriiiiight. Okay. If you say so (shakes head, hand on forehead). 4. (Continued) Now say there was around 100 - 200 people attending, thats anywhere between £2000 - £4000 when you factor in programme sales. On top of that they would have recieved their appearance money from Sky. Now do you really think they lost more than £10,000 that night? I doubt it was even that much. - So, in order to form a balanced judgement, maybe you could enlighten us with the costs for their stadium rent; riders wages for the night; staff costs; utilities, etc. Because, let's be totally honest here Arya, unless you know what these costs are, then your argument is based purely upon supposition and rhetoric - and subsequently completely and utterly flawed. You don't even know how many people were in attendance to support your own case; nor what percentage were cash-paying customers! So, let's (as you suggest) also factor in 'programme sales' - what do these cost to print? What's the profit margin? I know the exact answer to that one actually; but maybe you'd care to enlighten us? 5. Sure, a loss isn't good in any circumstances, but the reaction from Coventry has been nothing short of embarrassing. Do you think you're the only club to have recieved the short straw with Sky? - Coventry aren't my club. I support Lakeside. Next. 6. No, only every other club didn't whinge and moan and start demanding rematches. - Personally, I have not mentioned the re-match aspect of Mr. Horton's statement. Suffice to say I think it's a totally unrealistic request and unfair on Poole. 7. If Coventry make it through the semi and grand finals, which they will do, the attendances generated from the publicity of this spat and the payments from Sky, will cover the £10,000 they lost that night and a hell of a lot more. - Where is the additional attendance going to appear from exactly; or is this yet another statement that you cannot substantiate with anything other than guesswork? SKY will cover their £10k loss will they? Really? Mr. Horton will be delighted. 'And a hell of a lot more' eh? How much exactly? What will the attendances be? 8. So why don't you ask yourself what planet you're on and apply a little common sense. - I try and base my arguments upon hard evidence and facts - instead of fanciful, ill-informed (and incorrect) information and rhetoric. That to my way of thinking IS INDEED applying common sense. Edited June 10, 2015 by The Voice Of Reason 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice Of Reason Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Responding in bold font is not anywhere near as meaningful as getting your facts correct at the outset. However, many thanks for responding. It simply reiterates my point that you are actually quite clueless as to the extent of Coventry Speedways losses from that night; coupled with a lack of any knowledge around many other aspects of the sport - e.g. who's responsible for paying riders' point money; costs of other overheads (such as programmes, etc.). You say that you are familiar with running a business. For the sake of that business, I assume, and hope, that you aren't their accountant. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz01 Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Horton would have budgeted for the season and would expect decent cash flow coming in for a Poole match. That didn't happen. So more than likely we will be running at a loss for the season unless a big crowd we usually get for Poole turns up for another fixture (doubtful). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Horton would have budgeted for the season and would expect decent cash flow coming in for a Poole match. That didn't happen. So more than likely we will be running at a loss for the season unless a big crowd we usually get for Poole turns up for another fixture (doubtful). From what i understand Coventry usually have big crowds compared to many other teams so shouldn't be difficult to get it back especially considering you will be in the play offs when it will be packed as long as it doesn't rain! Responding in bold font is not anywhere near as meaningful as getting your facts correct at the outset. However, many thanks for responding. It simply reiterates my point that you are actually quite clueless as to the extent of Coventry Speedways losses from that night; coupled with a lack of any knowledge around many other aspects of the sport - e.g. who's responsible for paying riders' point money; costs of other overheads (such as programmes, etc.). You say that you are familiar with running a business. For the sake of that business, I assume, and hope, that you aren't their accountant. I think he only responded in bold font to differentiate between your remarks and his answers but you just carry on making cheap points when you most likely also know nothing of Coventry's costs either. I 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 I'm amazed that Coventrys losses can be dismissed due to the fact they will likely make the play offs. So if this happens again to a non play off team, what then? Best to discuss it now and hopefully stop this kind of thing happening again,again. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces51 Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Surely, the point is simple. If Coventry make the play offs then they would have made it without this debacle. If at the end of the season they would have made a profit of £X thousand, with the loss from this match it will be £X thousand minus that loss. However you look at it that loss will not be made up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proud panther Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Would imagine programmes dont make hardly any profit at the average meeting, apart from the advertising. The other point that is being missed is that there was nobody in the stadium to buy them ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottyfan Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Horton would have budgeted for the season and would expect decent cash flow coming in for a Poole match. That didn't happen. So more than likely we will be running at a loss for the season unless a big crowd we usually get for Poole turns up for another fixture (doubtful). You might get that big crowd for Lakeside (hopefully), if you have to ride them after the 28th June Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Would imagine programmes dont make hardly any profit at the average meeting, apart from the advertising. The other point that is being missed is that there was nobody in the stadium to buy them ! Its the only meeting at Coventry that i have been to that they haven't sold out!! usually its a re printed insert that cost 50p and thats a rip off at that price. Still not as bad as the SWC at 5.00 per programme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Horton would have budgeted for the season and would expect decent cash flow coming in for a Poole match. That didn't happen. So more than likely we will be running at a loss for the season unless a big crowd we usually get for Poole turns up for another fixture (doubtful). And ? I am sure any team who ride v Poole at home get one of there biggest crowds but sky are still going to show Poole away at times ...As I said Horton signed up to the rules of the tv he also choose to charge full admission for a sky match . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyb Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Alas, remember that British Speedway seems to be run by the the equivalent of the Kray twins - AKA the Russell brothers - unless you want to be part of an extension to the M25 motorway, IMO not much point in questioning what is going on. At least football currently has the FBI to investigate the wrong doings in that sport - whereas I reckon the WI ( my granny is a proud member ! ) are possibly doing a likewise job for this sport. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice Of Reason Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Re: Arya's further (completely misinformed) resonse: 1. I may not have been spot on with my estimates but I don't expect they were very far off. My programme profit margins will have been spot on. - Ermmmmmm....actually, you are so far wide of the mark by.....around 200%. 2. Our business does very well thank you! It's a good thing we don't have arrogant closed minded people working for us - I can only assume that your business is not selling your headgrear! 3. The point I was making from square one, which seems to have gone well over your head was; yes Coventry will have made a loss that night, yes it will have affected their cash flow and is far from ideal, but it really isn't as bad as some people are making out. The play offs will bring a big pay day for the Coventry management and this blip in their season will quickly be recovered from. - But your initial financial forecasts are based upon pure speculation and fiction; not FACTS. Hence my respose. 4. Coventry will not be leaving the Elite League next season, it is simply a case of the management wanting to strike a blow back as they have been disadvantaged and are clearly rather bitter about it. - Again, as you are disagreeing with Coventry's Promotion, maybe, just maybe, you'd like to state FACT rather than rhetoric? 5. If you have more accurate information on Coventry's costs for the evening then it would be far more useful to contribute rather than to make ambiguous comments and jabs. - With all due respect, it is not ME that is stating the financial loss v subsequent recompense arguement, but YOU. Prove your words with evidence or fact(s) - not hyperbole. I am asking YOU to substantiate YOUR statements. Quite clearly, as you have provided (given your responses) MINIMAL understading of the costs incurred by a Speedway Promoter, I am asking YOU to prove your previous rhetoric upon this particualr thread. If you can't, then basically, don't even bother to bore us with your repititive and meaningless rhetoric any longer. There's a good girl. x Edited June 11, 2015 by The Voice Of Reason 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmc82 Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Yawn. Let's get back to my original point, as I'm bored of bickering with grumpy old men now. £10,000, although no laughing matter, is not that much to lose considering their position in the league and the amount they are likely to generate from the play offs. Every club knows exactly how it works when the Sky cameras are in town and thats a risk you take when you agree to broadcast your match. You cannot set a precedent of being happy to ride on slop (e.g. when Coventry won the 2010 title almost entirely thanks to the poor condition of the track) and then complain about it when it goes against you. It's unfortunate, but it's not the end of the world and it's not the end of Coventry Bee's in the Elite League or featuring in future Sky matches. Nor will be the end of Mick and Garry's public tantrums. Lovely talking to you old chap x Arya if I was you I would stop now before you make yourself look any worse than you already have. Yes you support Poole but if you take off your rose tinted glasses then even you must see that what happened Monday was wrong and had a huge financial effect on Coventry Speedway. Imagine if it had been the other way round, I'm sure then you would have been infuriated. To make up silly sums of how much they made or pay for stadiums etc when you really have no idea just makes you look silly Edited June 11, 2015 by mdmc82 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star Lady Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Time to get over it and move on I think. Nothing will come of Coventry's complaint, they will continue to compete in the Elite League, they will continue to host Sky matches and hopefully this will be the end of Havvy's embarrassing public outbursts.It has been the other way around many times in the past, and will happen again I expect. The reward obviously outweighs the risk or the clubs wouldn't agree to broadcast there, would they? Maybe it's time to just accept that Coventry were dealt a bad hand, everything went against them that night and now they're over reacting a little. Maybe just maybe Coventry breaking the ranks of we will just shut up and put up will be the catalyst for ALL the clubs collectively to tell Sky via Go Speed that sometimes the sport would benefit from Sky/Go Speed losing money instead of the clubs and the fans. I know I'm in a dream world but hey the sun is shining so why not? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Yawn. Let's get back to my original point, as I'm bored of bickering with grumpy old men now. £10,000, although no laughing matter, is not that much to lose considering their position in the league and the amount they are likely to generate from the play offs. Every club knows exactly how it works when the Sky cameras are in town and thats a risk you take when you agree to broadcast your match. You cannot set a precedent of being happy to ride on slop (e.g. when Coventry won the 2010 title almost entirely thanks to the poor condition of the track) and then complain about it when it goes against you. It's unfortunate, but it's not the end of the world and it's not the end of Coventry Bee's in the Elite League or featuring in future Sky matches. Nor will be the end of Mick and Garry's public tantrums. Lovely talking to you old chap x Over many years on this forum a lot of us including me have tried to have a reasonable discussion with the voice of no reason but he always resorts to trying to make out he is of a higher intellect and trying to gain kudos by trying to make out us mere mortals are stupid and trying make out he knows more than the rest of us when in truth he doesn't which is why he harps on about facts but doesn't actually give any of his own and can't even spell, what's headgrear!! Edited June 11, 2015 by foreverblue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmc82 Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Umm, I'm sorry to rain on your parade but it was actually you who quoted £10,000 as being their loss for the night. So either that figure is correct or you really have no idea. Sorry to make you look so silly. And this is nothing to do with Poole, it's all to do with the bitter management and fans of Coventry who are acting like they are the first club to draw a short straw in speedway. What happened on Monday may be wrong but it's been happening for years and everybody knows the score when Sky is in town. Like I said before, which you're keen to ignore, you cannot set a precedent of being happy to ride on slop when it goes in your favour and then start throwing your toys at everyone else in British speedway when it doesn't. Time to get over it and move on I think. Nothing will come of Coventry's complaint, they will continue to compete in the Elite League, they will continue to host Sky matches and hopefully this will be the end of Havvy's embarrassing public outbursts. It has been the other way around many times in the past, and will happen again I expect. The reward obviously outweighs the risk or the clubs wouldn't agree to broadcast there, would they? Maybe it's time to just accept that Coventry were dealt a bad hand, everything went against them that night and now they're over reacting a little. 😴😴😴😴😴😴😴😴💤💤💤💤💤 (sigh) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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