Gerhard Engine

[mac101]

Nathan greaves has just put his up for sale brand new start of this year and just back from service from GTR £2500 Big loss for a 8 month old engine

[f-s-p]

Nathan greaves has just put his up for sale brand new start of this year and just back from service from GTR £2500 Big loss for a 8 month old engine

Is it?

[foamfence]

Nathan greaves has just put his up for sale brand new start of this year and just back from service from GTR £2500 Big loss for a 8 month old engine

Not really, Bomber just sold two complete bikes with GM engines, both new this year, six grand for the pair!

[Lord Skid]

Putting it up for sale is one thing, selling it is another.

Would be interesting to know how much the service was.

Putting it up for sale is one thing, selling it is another.

Would be interesting to know how much the service was.

[Odds On]

THE DEAN MACHINE, on 24 Oct 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Freddies engines were out the box but its how you set them up , they need different jetting/gearing- valve timing to conventional thinking and with Freddie not giving that out you were on your own but the engines were the same

 

I think you are missing the concept of the meaning of off of the shelf, that would indicate that I could go and buy exactly the same engine as FF and then ride it on the shale without doing anything to it, your post indicates that this is not the case as FFs would be tinkered with and alas is a whole different beast.

There is no way on this earth that this has any mileage in it, do you honestly believe that all riders will use the same engine without trying to find that extra advantage out of the engine?...very similar to does every single rider use methanol.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

 

I think you are missing the concept of the meaning of off of the shelf, that would indicate that I could go and buy exactly the same engine as FF and then ride it on the shale without doing anything to it, your post indicates that this is not the case as FFs would be tinkered with and alas is a whole different beast.

There is no way on this earth that this has any mileage in it, do you honestly believe that all riders will use the same engine without trying to find that extra advantage out of the engine?...very similar to does every single rider use methanol.

im not missing the point , you can buy the same engine as Freddie was using all the same parts but its how you set your timings thats different ,its the same parts , same engine, its just how those parts are timed and set is where the difference is, double over head cam engines are notoriously hard to set to work well and this was proved with the GTR, Freddie was obviously experimenting with different cam timing and maybe compression but he had Gerhard by his side and when he found that set up he kept it too himself and thats where the problem was for others, to buy any engine and expect the same performance for you wont happen , you would have to be the same weight same height and have exactly the same riding style as freddie and use exactly the same chassis and that just wont happen, the engine is off the shelf but its a hundred different factors that make it different and some like jetting are not even on the engine Edited November 1, 2017 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[Odds On]

THE DEAN MACHINE, on 01 Nov 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

im not missing the point , you can buy the same engine as Freddie was using all the same parts but its how you set your timings thats different ,its the same parts , same engine, its just how those parts are timed and set is where the difference is, double over head cam engines are notoriously hard to set to work well and this was proved with the GTR, Freddie was obviously experimenting with different cam timing and maybe compression but he had Gerhard by his side and when he found that set up he kept it too himself and thats where the problem was for others

 

 

but that theory is no different than buying a GM, Jawa, Weslake etc etc off of the shelf....once they are out of the shop they are open to all sorts of "abuse"!

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

 

 

but that theory is no different than buying a GM, Jawa, Weslake etc etc off of the shelf....once they are out of the shop they are open to all sorts of "abuse"!

to point yes but with GTR you can just put it in the bike and go you wont do that with a GM, most GMs come in kit form and are then ported etc , a GTR comes as an engine ready to use and they are all the same, you could buy Freddies actual engine from him and find it still didnt feel any good Edited November 1, 2017 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[Lord Skid]

So, at the end of the day, FF binned them for the GM, so if a decent Rider and the Manufacturer couldn't make it happen, what chance has a lower order kid on a tight budget got, as this was the target market.

I think you are flogging a dead horse, they tried, it failed, just left a few people with a damaged bank account.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Lord Skid

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

So, at the end of the day, FF binned them for the GM, so if a decent Rider and the Manufacturer couldn't make it happen, what chance has a lower order kid on a tight budget got, as this was the target market.

I think you are flogging a dead horse, they tried, it failed, just left a few people with a damaged bank account.

im not flogging any horse , makes no difference to me what engines are used, but I can see the potential an engine like the GTR could have for the future of the sport , in case you missed it Freddie led the world on one and was Number 1 for his british team and polish team on them and has been no better since changing back to GM ,they do work, its just no tuners are trying to get the best out of them like they are with GM ,nobody has lost money on one, as one senior person involved with them told me you have to look at the rider more than the engine , half of them spend needless £1000s on engine tuning and go nowhere but dont ever look at themselves,, had we known all along you had the answers to speedways ever increasing costs we could of just given you the job and not been in this mess now Edited November 1, 2017 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[FAST GATER]

im not flogging any horse , makes no difference to me what engines are used, but I can see the potential an engine like the GTR could have for the future of the sport , in case you missed it Freddie led the world on one and was Number 1 for his british team and polish team on them and has been no better since changing back to GM ,they do work, its just no tuners are trying to get the best out of them like they are with GM ,nobody has lost money on one, as one senior person involved with them told me you have to look at the rider more than the engine , half of them spend needless £1000s on engine tuning and go nowhere but dont ever look at themselves,, had we known all along you had the answers to speedways ever increasing costs we could of just given you the job and not been in this mess now

Dean makes some very good points we used to buy new Jawas in the 70's and the riders ripped them apart ,new guards ,handle bars ,seats ,levers ,fuel tanks and wheels .This made the bikes look better and that was about all it did ,this has now escalated to engines .The excuse used for stripping the bike was weight loss but as I have said Briggo used any guards etc he could lay his hands on and was not as light weight or small as the likes of Ivan but was no slouch on a bike .

 

IMO it's the fellow twisting the throttle that makes the diffence if they are even matched from a mechanical point of view every time and should never be the one with the deepest pockets .

Edited November 1, 2017 by FAST GATER

[MARK246]

im not flogging any horse , makes no difference to me what engines are used, but I can see the potential an engine like the GTR could have for the future of the sport , in case you missed it Freddie led the world on one and was Number 1 for his british team and polish team on them and has been no better since changing back to GM ,they do work, its just no tuners are trying to get the best out of them like they are with GM ,nobody has lost money on one, as one senior person involved with them told me you have to look at the rider more than the engine , half of them spend needless £1000s on engine tuning and go nowhere but dont ever look at themselves,, had we known all along you had the answers to speedways ever increasing costs we could of just given you the job and not been in this mess now

 

I can't understand your logic with this.

The engine was to be sold and used sealed where do the tuners come into this?

[foamfence]

I can't understand your logic with this.

The engine was to be sold and used sealed where do the tuners come into this?

The 'seal' is for the warranty, if you're prepared to forgo the warranty you can do whatever you like with it.

[Lord Skid]

I could have solved alot of Speedways problems, but as now have no vested interest in the Sport, am not bothered one way or the other.

Having seen how the BSPA/SCB's latest whims have cost Riders many thousands of pounds over the years, someone has to tell both sides of the story, as you pointed out I seem pretty negative on certain matters, but I've seen first hand how much dirt deflectors, cut outs, silencers, guards etc etc have cost Riders, while many profited out of their cartel ideas.

Interestingly now I have to take my £5k GTR to PJR to be competitive, now I've got a £8-10k engine, which might do the job, your arguments get weaker by the posting.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

I can't understand your logic with this.

The engine was to be sold and used sealed where do the tuners come into this?

because riders and tuners dictate the sport and are not interested in the sports well being but you can still adjust cam timing in a sealed engine

I could have solved alot of Speedways problems, but as now have no vested interest in the Sport, am not bothered one way or the other.

Having seen how the BSPA/SCB's latest whims have cost Riders many thousands of pounds over the years, someone has to tell both sides of the story, as you pointed out I seem pretty negative on certain matters, but I've seen first hand how much dirt deflectors, cut outs, silencers, guards etc etc have cost Riders, while many profited out of their cartel ideas.

Interestingly now I have to take my £5k GTR to PJR to be competitive, now I've got a £8-10k engine, which might do the job, your arguments get weaker by the posting.

ok I will spell it out for you , if every rider used the GTR and it was sealed no one would have an advantage or disadvange , they would all work and costs would be cut more than half , happy now, you should be head of the bspa you are such a self proclaimed genius, instead of rubbishing the GTR put an alternative forward Edited November 1, 2017 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[Fromafar]

im not flogging any horse , makes no difference to me what engines are used, but I can see the potential an engine like the GTR could have for the future of the sport , in case you missed it Freddie led the world on one and was Number 1 for his british team and polish team on them and has been no better since changing back to GM ,they do work, its just no tuners are trying to get the best out of them like they are with GM ,nobody has lost money on one, as one senior person involved with them told me you have to look at the rider more than the engine , half of them spend needless £1000s on engine tuning and go nowhere but dont ever look at themselves,, had we known all along you had the answers to speedways ever increasing costs we could of just given you the job and not been in this mess now

Very good point regarding the rider ,they all want to blame their Machinary when in fact they are just not good enough, both skill and mechanical nous.There are a few riders out there would not know which way round to sit on the bike if the handlebars were not at the front!!!

[OveFundinFan]

Very good point regarding the rider ,they all want to blame their Machinary when in fact they are just not good enough, both skill and mechanical nous.There are a few riders out there would not know which way round to sit on the bike if the handlebars were not at the front!!!

 

Spot on for the first sentance, cant comment on the 2nd as I dont know the riders well enough.

If a Chamions league rider was to sit FL engine in their frame would they have been in contention for a WC medal - absolutely not.

And regards tuning, what is being talked about is the difference between tuning internal bits (sealed in the GTR) and "tuning" in other bits to suit the rider ability, track conditions, track length/shape of bends etc - huge difference between the two sorts of tuning.

 

FL was probably going through an off form patch, and riders will do anything to get their form back, A lot is in the head, so FL chose to change engines, whether he actually did benefit from a change of make to GM I suspect would be a very fine line at that level of riding.

[AFCB Wildcat]

So, at the end of the day, FF binned them for the GM, so if a decent Rider and the Manufacturer couldn't make it happen, what chance has a lower order kid on a tight budget got, as this was the target market.

I think you are flogging a dead horse, they tried, it failed, just left a few people with a damaged bank account.

Maybe I'm seeing it wrong but should a "lower order kid" have to be sitting on a machine equal to that of a vastly experienced GP rider in order to be competitive?

Surely at NL level rider ability should be the limiting factor not the bike.

The trouble is these days kids want to be on a bike thats performance vastly exceeds their ability before they have learnt track craft.

[Vince]

From the day a kid steps into the NL there is pressure on them to score points. They don't need and usually can't use super fast engines.

But if they are racing a lad with very similar ability and he has a better set up he will win. That's where a good tuner can make the difference, if you've got the money he'll give you an engine that works well for you and you score more points and get a better chance to progress your career. Unfair on those who can't afford it, but no more so than having somebody with years of speedway experience in your corner offering advice. It's just a fact of life that in motor sport money makes life a lot easier.

If you bring in a standard engine there will be those who buy a load and keep those that perform best on the dyno. It happens in many one make series, those with money have an advantage.

[Lord Skid]

Perfectly put,if for example Tai Harris wants to spend 100k of his Polish sponsors money on engines, good luck to him, but where the problem starts is when his UK club agree to pay £X00's a point, whereas they can realistically only offer him £150 a point, if he doesn't want to ride for that, then tough, the BSPA have got to stop the tail wagging the dog, but it's not the tails fault if the dog is stupid.