Gerhard Engine

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

You're right, it can't be revived and work, it was a disaster waiting to happen, all down to the BSPA believing the hype they were fed.

not so much the bspas part because I dont actually know what the deal is but the GTR concept really could of been a way forward but the attitude of the riders and nay sayers within the sport wont let it happen

[Lord Skid]

Wasn't the big selling point the fact it was unbelievably cheap to run, with massive service intervals.

Something that was totally unachievable, which is exactly what the people without a vested interest were saying.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Wasn't the big selling point the fact it was unbelievably cheap to run, with massive service intervals.

Something that was totally unachievable, which is exactly what the people without a vested interest were saying.

there are riders using them with big service intervals , the problem wasnt its reliabilty or its service costs it was its performance or at least how to achieve the performance ,I understand that there are some using them in longtrack/ grasstrack in Europe , its obvious you dont like them and are finding some enjoyment in their failure to take off in Britain and in the bspa failure if there is one ,they could of been a answer but sadly it doesnt look like thats going to happen now

[Sings4Speedway]

From what i can gather its not the failure of the engines in terms of running but the drop off in performance after a certain period. Its been proven by several that they will do 200 races etc but most comments i have heard are regarding the drop in power performance after 100.

To get them off the ground it could do with an experienced successful team either NL or Championship that will become a factory team, supply the engines & X points money to their 1-7. Obviously if its a bad season the engines will be blamed but if they have a decent year it will be a case of look what can be achieved etc

[FAST GATER]

It is sad that the GTR has not taken off as it was hoped but it is no real surprise in this sport ,all riders seem interested in is speed and how their machinery looks .I was once at a meeting in the 70's when I saw a Jawa that looked like it was ready for the "bin" ,the rider went on to score max and happened to be one Barry Briggs who reputedly spent as little as possible on his machinery even using other riders cast offs .

 

My point being that if riders were to accept don't need to spend huge sums on tuning etc and concentrate on setting bikes up to suit conditions to gain an edge the whole GTR or similiar type of engines might just catch on .

Edited October 23, 2017 by FAST GATER

[Lord Skid]

I was never against the GTR, just the marketing which encouraged Riders to buy them, with the promise of being competitive, reliable and economical, all of which proved false, and especially the constant updates on what Fast Freddie was achieving on his, which we now know was not 100% true, he could probably afford his, but I am sure there are lower order riders who are counting the cost.

[foamfence]

I was never against the GTR, just the marketing which encouraged Riders to buy them, with the promise of being competitive, reliable and economical, all of which proved false, and especially the constant updates on what Fast Freddie was achieving on his, which we now know was not 100% true, he could probably afford his, but I am sure there are lower order riders who are counting the cost.

You certainly ARE against the GTR! All you've ever done on this thread is criticise it and anyone who spoke favourably about it. There are some riders now in their second season with the engine, they seem to have found it to be 'competitive, reliable and economical.' For the first half of the season Freddie Lindgren did very well with it at all levels, then again, most GP riders seemed to switch engine builders mid-season, so they basically played a game of musical chairs with tuners and where one found failure another found success, with the same tuner! Much of which is just psychology, if a rider feels he's made the right move he'll feel confident, until the novelty wears off.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

I was never against the GTR, just the marketing which encouraged Riders to buy them, with the promise of being competitive, reliable and economical, all of which proved false, and especially the constant updates on what Fast Freddie was achieving on his, which we now know was not 100% true, he could probably afford his, but I am sure there are lower order riders who are counting the cost.

but they are competitive , reliable and economical , they are just hard to set up and without being disrespectful to the riders some are not known for their technical ability and without the help which was not there they were not able to make them work ,other top riders like hancock tried them and said they had similar performance to a GM, Nicki Pedersen used them up till his injury but unless an engine hits the ground running it will never succeed as results matter , the concept is right despite what the nay sayer say but it need enforcement then no one gets the upper hand

[Jonny the spud]

Anyone who knows how to set them up isn't passing on info. In a sport where if you don't score you don't get paid, riders can't afford to cock up meetings hoping to get it right.

 

The power drops off big time after a while. Hence not a lot of riders are willing to take the risk

[Lord Skid]

You've just proved my points guys, regarding FF, do you really think FF was using an out of the box GTR, get real.

If they were competitive, reliable and economical, there would be dozens in use, as Riders are very much like sheep, one leads and the rest will follow, but they obviously didn't believe they could be like FF on a standard GTR.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

You've just proved my points guys, regarding FF, do you really think FF was using an out of the box GTR, get real.

If they were competitive, reliable and economical, there would be dozens in use, as Riders are very much like sheep, one leads and the rest will follow, but they obviously didn't believe they could be like FF on a standard GTR.

Freddies engines were out the box but its how you set them up , they need different jetting/gearing- valve timing to conventional thinking and with Freddie not giving that out you were on your own but the engines were the same

[Jonny the spud]

Freddies engines were out the box but its how you set them up , they need different jetting/gearing- valve timing to conventional thinking and with Freddie not giving that out you were on your own but the engines were the same

Therein lies the problem. Freddie, therefore Marcel too knew the optimum settings to get the engine running competitively but refused to share them.

 

They were trying to sell the engine to riders without providing adequate set up info, leaving them wasting time and money chasing set ups. Which in a results based sport can mean you're out of a job if you don't score.

 

Many people (me included) spent thousands on a product and then sold it and bought another GM which we knew would do the job.

 

I've already seen tuned GTR's with different cams competing on the grass in international meetings so even the "don't need to tune them" line has gone out of the window.

[OveFundinFan]

Therein lies the problem. Freddie, therefore Marcel too knew the optimum settings to get the engine running competitively but refused to share them.

 

They were trying to sell the engine to riders without providing adequate set up info, leaving them wasting time and money chasing set ups. Which in a results based sport can mean you're out of a job if you don't score.

 

Many people (me included) spent thousands on a product and then sold it and bought another GM which we knew would do the job.

 

I've already seen tuned GTR's with different cams competing on the grass in international meetings so even the "don't need to tune them" line has gone out of the window.

 

So then, do GM motors not need any tuning?? Do they not have to be set up for different tracks/different conditions?? Do GM put in the "box" all the settings for all the tracks and different types of conditions for each track??

 

Very possible that grass tracks are a much larger circuit then speedway, particularly on the continent. So one would expect tuning could be vastly different on a long grass track compared to a 340 metre slick speedway track - including cams

[Jonny the spud]

 

So then, do GM motors not need any tuning?? Do they not have to be set up for different tracks/different conditions?? Do GM put in the "box" all the settings for all the tracks and different types of conditions for each track??

 

Very possible that grass tracks are a much larger circuit then speedway, particularly on the continent. So one would expect tuning could be vastly different on a long grass track compared to a 340 metre slick speedway track - including cams

With a GM you know what you're getting, information is readily available. As I said. In speedway if you don't score you're out if a job.

 

The grass track rider was English. Riding on smaller English tracks.

 

 

My point was if you're selling a new product and trying to attract standard riders, don't hide info on how to get it running right

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Therein lies the problem. Freddie, therefore Marcel too knew the optimum settings to get the engine running competitively but refused to share them.

 

They were trying to sell the engine to riders without providing adequate set up info, leaving them wasting time and money chasing set ups. Which in a results based sport can mean you're out of a job if you don't score.

 

Many people (me included) spent thousands on a product and then sold it and bought another GM which we knew would do the job.

 

I've already seen tuned GTR's with different cams competing on the grass in international meetings so even the "don't need to tune them" line has gone out of the window.

there is no optimum performance because what works for 1 rider wont work for another , how many riders brought an oval port GM to find they didnt work for them , how many brought a baby offset when they first came out and found they were rubbish in Britain , or what about riders who had a good set up with a british tuner but decided they knew better and went with a foreign tuner and then struggled , its a race engine not a Ford Focus , if everyone was on them you would all be in the same boat but as you say results matter and while you experiment your sacked Edited October 24, 2017 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[Lord Skid]

Anyway, I was proved right, and the people with the vested intetest were found out and proved wrong, think the technical term is 'not fit for purpose'.

Interestingly when was the last time you heard anything from the people in the 'know', when FF was using the GTR crankcases the GTR PR machine was running 24/7.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Anyway, I was proved right, and the people with the vested intetest were found out and proved wrong, think the technical term is 'not fit for purpose'.

Interestingly when was the last time you heard anything from the people in the 'know', when FF was using the GTR crankcases the GTR PR machine was running 24/7.

no your not right , they are being trialed in Poland , they are being used on grasstrack and longtrack and in Britain there is a few at lower level and they are working , to be honest was Freddie any better when he went back to a GM , he led the world on a GTR he never got that high after he went back to a GM , we get you dont like them or the bspa involvement but your not right , far from it ,

[Twowheels]

Making the engine work for the rider is the biggest challenge, there maybe a place in speedway for the GTR but unfortunately at circa £5000 it is an expensive risk, as a perfect set up would be 2 complete bikes and a spare engine. Like any racing engine they need regular service's to get optimum performance. I am sure Freddie has his checked as soon as he feels it has gone off, and I am sure that he has a spare waiting to go straight in while another is away being serviced. GM has got it right with the design, good maintenance and regular oil changes a GM will do 50plus races before a major service and you can pick up a good second hand one for around £1000. I would love to see more competition from engine manufacturers and the GTR would certainly be a good start.

[foamfence]

Making the engine work for the rider is the biggest challenge, there maybe a place in speedway for the GTR but unfortunately at circa £5000 it is an expensive risk, as a perfect set up would be 2 complete bikes and a spare engine. Like any racing engine they need regular service's to get optimum performance. I am sure Freddie has his checked as soon as he feels it has gone off, and I am sure that he has a spare waiting to go straight in while another is away being serviced. GM has got it right with the design, good maintenance and regular oil changes a GM will do 50plus races before a major service and you can pick up a good second hand one for around £1000. I would love to see more competition from engine manufacturers and the GTR would certainly be a good start.

They are actually £3950 if you are VAT registered, your comment "regular service's" could be misinterpreted, the claim is once or twice a year. There are a lot of riders who don't get 50 plus races from GMs. Your comments about Freddie Lindgren are pure guesswork. While it is certainly possible to get a secondhand GM for £1000, there are very few (if any) riders in the top three leagues actually using them, Dean might possibly know of one or two.

[Twowheels]

Foamfence, yes if you are lucky to be vat Reg, that would reduce the start up cost for a GTR. Servicing is very dependant on many factors, track that you ride, how you look after the engine etc. Riders at Freddie's level will certainly know when the engine is ready for a service, be it GTR or GM. With my comment on second hand GM, I would say only a few riders in the lower league would be able to afford anything more that a good second hand GM, probably around £1500-£2000. GM's around £1,000 make a good starter engine for those coming in to the sport. I would love to see the GTR make an impact in the sport.