IronScorpion Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 Whether at the start line or on a stand, still free revving In the pits, the mechanics & riders blip the throttle for engine warm up procedures. If the engines are over-revved before being warm then you have a poor mechanic and/or maintenance. At the start line, when all riders are ready, they rev their bike until the start light comes on then rev it more before the tapes rise. It is this last action that causes the problems. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple.H. Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) In the pits, the mechanics & riders blip the throttle for engine warm up procedures. If the engines are over-revved before being warm then you have a poor mechanic and/or maintenance. At the start line, when all riders are ready, they rev their bike until the start light comes on then rev it more before the tapes rise. It is this last action that causes the problems. Betcha Bomber and Lykke-Nielsen don't suffer this affliction Though they both look like Todd Wiltshire compared to Chris Morton Edited November 17, 2016 by Triple.H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommelier Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 In the pits, the mechanics & riders blip the throttle for engine warm up procedures. If the engines are over-revved before being warm then you have a poor mechanic and/or maintenance. At the start line, when all riders are ready, they rev their bike until the start light comes on then rev it more before the tapes rise. It is this last action that causes the problems. Hans Nielsen would go from the start on barely tick over, on the other hand, Mark Loram would rev the engine to the heavens! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 I think the benefit of a rev limiter could, in the long term, be to make short stroke engines obsolete. Then possibly you get back to long stroke engines with heavier flywheels which in my opinion are inherently safer especially as silencers become more restrictive which they will undoubtedly do. Can't see how an engine hitting a limiter in the middle of a race is any different to one which over revs, either way the power disappears and you get some unexpected grip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 I think the benefit of a rev limiter could, in the long term, be to make short stroke engines obsolete. Then possibly you get back to long stroke engines with heavier flywheels which in my opinion are inherently safer especially as silencers become more restrictive which they will undoubtedly do. Can't see how an engine hitting a limiter in the middle of a race is any different to one which over revs, either way the power disappears and you get some unexpected grip. on the first point why not only allow long stoke with heavy flywheels then not only would you bring revs down but would make the bikes predictable again and the 2nd point , either way the end result is putting riders in danger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piston197 Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 Silly question ?? how difficult would it to be to set up an LED display wtth perhaps 12 amber ( not red!) LED's mounted on a strip on the bars , with one LED lighting up for each 1000RPM as on some starts it may be prudent to leave the line at say 8000 RPM than at 10,000 RPM due to the nature of the start. It is not rocket science , or costly and it will take the guesswork out of how hard bikes are being revved in the pits, or on the startline, obviously in the heat of battle no one is going to be looking at it ?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 Reading this thread is doing my head in...it's apparent how we've all been sucked in to the 'Speedway way'. It's just ruining the sport. Constantly tinkering with the engines and set ups, trying to find an edge over your opponent. The majority of winning is done at the tuners before the racing has ever begun. It's won or lost depending on who has tuned their bike the best that week. How ridiculous in the bigger picture is that. The majority of riders are at a level, that the only difference between them, is the bike they sit on. Money just being wasted on tinkering....trying to find that edge. Speedway really does need to stop this. Rev limiters aren't the answer. The answer lies in finding a way of not allowing riders and tuners near the engines during the week. Why does Speedway need the riders and tuners fiddling with the engines? It doesn't. Speedway should be about four riders racing on engines that haven't been modified in any way. Factory set and regulated. Speedway has got set in it's way of riders trying to out do one another off the track. And this is where Speedway has shot itself in the foot, by letting this happen throughout history. Riders have got used to this...it's how they see the sport. Tinkering to find the best set up for them....what they prefer. The only way speedway can reduce costs...is by cutting out the tuners and tinkering. Stick the damn engine in, set your clutch and gearing, and just ride the damn thing. What paying supporter gives a damn as to what a tuner or rider has done to an engine? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 Reading this thread is doing my head in...it's apparent how we've all been sucked in to the 'Speedway way'. It's just ruining the sport. Constantly tinkering with the engines and set ups, trying to find an edge over your opponent. The majority of winning is done at the tuners before the racing has ever begun. It's won or lost depending on who has tuned their bike the best that week. How ridiculous in the bigger picture is that. The majority of riders are at a level, that the only difference between them, is the bike they sit on. Money just being wasted on tinkering....trying to find that edge. Speedway really does need to stop this. Rev limiters aren't the answer. The answer lies in finding a way of not allowing riders and tuners near the engines during the week. Why does Speedway need the riders and tuners fiddling with the engines? It doesn't. Speedway should be about four riders racing on engines that haven't been modified in any way. Factory set and regulated. Speedway has got set in it's way of riders trying to out do one another off the track. And this is where Speedway has shot itself in the foot, by letting this happen throughout history. Riders have got used to this...it's how they see the sport. Tinkering to find the best set up for them....what they prefer. The only way speedway can reduce costs...is by cutting out the tuners and tinkering. Stick the damn engine in, set your clutch and gearing, and just ride the damn thing. What paying supporter gives a damn as to what a tuner or rider has done to an engine? Couldn't agree more! In a perfect world every track would have a stable of bikes maintained by a couple of mechanics and then issued, randomly, to that meeting's riders and returned after the meeting. But of course finances just wouldn't allow that to happen...but I can dream! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedibee Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 fine , bury your head in the sand as usual , Peter John's and the like are driving this sport to oblivion , you can see it , everyone can see it , we are living it but still it goes on , maybe the sport deserves to die , you would think so the way that the influenceial people treat it, speedway is not f1 not even a poor mans f1 , never has been never will be ,the majority of fans both current and ex don't give a damm about engines or their tuners , all the sport needs is a cheap reliable engine that can't be tuned/ messed about with , enforced through holomagation of parts and strict rules , everything else is plastering over the huge hole we have dug for ourselves you're wasting your time here Dean . Phillip Rising will defend to the hilt the rights of people to bleed speedway dry . just like he does with all the crap that Briggs forces on it . I suppose some ex rider has a rev limiter from another application that they have bought a job lot of , now it's just a case of creating a market for them . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 (edited) on the first point why not only allow long stoke with heavy flywheels then not only would you bring revs down but would make the bikes predictable again and the 2nd point , either way the end result is putting riders in danger Because it would be very difficult to police while a rev limiter would be really simple. The end result is the same though, rev limiters would be no more dangerous in my opinion, possibly less so as they would misfire rather than sign off completely. The way bikes are over revved on the start by some has to shorten the life span considerably. The oil system is so primitive that there is no way anything is getting adequate feed at those sort of revs. Edited November 18, 2016 by Vince Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedibee Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 Think the 4 valve is regulated, not sure about the 500cc though. ??????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 Couldn't agree more! In a perfect world every track would have a stable of bikes maintained by a couple of mechanics and then issued, randomly, to that meeting's riders and returned after the meeting. But of course finances just wouldn't allow that to happen...but I can dream! I totally agree....however I do think it could happen, it's just because of how Speedway is at the moment, that people find ways of it not working. If the BSPA said that was the way they wanted it to go, they could tender out to a manufacturer, like JAWA, GM etc as to who has the 'rights' to provide those engines. That league called 'JAWA Premier League' etc. The Clubs could find a way of paying for these engines over a monthly basis. Riders wages would be reduced accordingly. Give them a wage that they live on...like the rest of us. Not a wage that is spent on engines etc. If they have to have another job....then so be it. Riders can have their own rolling chassis, clutch etc....but the engines are secured by the club. Riders would have to adjust to this way...and not compare it to how it is nowadays...it would have to be a complete overhaul. If it means losing some....so be it. Let them do what they bloomin want in Individual meetings...if they want to waste their money chasing their tails, then more fool them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillipsr Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 Reading this thread is doing my head in...it's apparent how we've all been sucked in to the 'Speedway way'. It's just ruining the sport. Constantly tinkering with the engines and set ups, trying to find an edge over your opponent. The majority of winning is done at the tuners before the racing has ever begun. It's won or lost depending on who has tuned their bike the best that week. How ridiculous in the bigger picture is that. The majority of riders are at a level, that the only difference between them, is the bike they sit on. Money just being wasted on tinkering....trying to find that edge. Speedway really does need to stop this. Rev limiters aren't the answer. The answer lies in finding a way of not allowing riders and tuners near the engines during the week. Why does Speedway need the riders and tuners fiddling with the engines? It doesn't. Speedway should be about four riders racing on engines that haven't been modified in any way. Factory set and regulated. Speedway has got set in it's way of riders trying to out do one another off the track. And this is where Speedway has shot itself in the foot, by letting this happen throughout history. Riders have got used to this...it's how they see the sport. Tinkering to find the best set up for them....what they prefer. The only way speedway can reduce costs...is by cutting out the tuners and tinkering. Stick the damn engine in, set your clutch and gearing, and just ride the damn thing. What paying supporter gives a damn as to what a tuner or rider has done to an engine? Who is buying the engines? If I had paid my own money to get these engines to then be told I'm not allowed to touch them at all id stop buying them and do something else, If the idea is the clubs by them then that's fine I guess although still think clubs would be unhappy about this, Also what happens when a rider rides individually who's buying the engines in the GP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWC Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 Can't these things be tried in the NL where riders learn the skills etc. Educate them from the start not half way through or at the end of their careers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piston197 Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 have a god look at some of the Japanese speedway racing ( auto race, or oto-resu) the riders compete on same machinery and are unknown to the spectators, basically a gambling sport, but big crowds ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sings4Speedway Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 Can't these things be tried in the NL where riders learn the skills etc. Educate them from the start not half way through or at the end of their careers Yep thats it bring in the changes to the NL. The league where most riders would be happy ending the season breaking even. A league where riders juggle racing with full time jobs and will often have to sacrifice other aspects of life to continue racing. I would suggest popping in to the pits of a few NL meetings and seeing what reaction you get to your suggestion. Whilst the riders are at the start of their career they are also the riders most likely to pack up and walk away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 Reading this thread is doing my head in...it's apparent how we've all been sucked in to the 'Speedway way'. It's just ruining the sport. Constantly tinkering with the engines and set ups, trying to find an edge over your opponent. The majority of winning is done at the tuners before the racing has ever begun. It's won or lost depending on who has tuned their bike the best that week. How ridiculous in the bigger picture is that. The majority of riders are at a level, that the only difference between them, is the bike they sit on. Money just being wasted on tinkering....trying to find that edge. Speedway really does need to stop this. Rev limiters aren't the answer. The answer lies in finding a way of not allowing riders and tuners near the engines during the week. Why does Speedway need the riders and tuners fiddling with the engines? It doesn't. Speedway should be about four riders racing on engines that haven't been modified in any way. Factory set and regulated. Speedway has got set in it's way of riders trying to out do one another off the track. And this is where Speedway has shot itself in the foot, by letting this happen throughout history. Riders have got used to this...it's how they see the sport. Tinkering to find the best set up for them....what they prefer. The only way speedway can reduce costs...is by cutting out the tuners and tinkering. Stick the damn engine in, set your clutch and gearing, and just ride the damn thing. What paying supporter gives a damn as to what a tuner or rider has done to an engine? that is pretty much what I've been banging on about for a couple of years now but nobody will listen ,the sport is run by the mechanical side and untill this is changed will we only go one route and that's not the route the fans want , I have been around bikes all my life , I have practically lived in a workshop for 30years and still own 7 bikes I am a real methonal head and I still say the engine doesn't matter to speedway fans 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 that is pretty much what I've been banging on about for a couple of years now but nobody will listen ,the sport is run by the mechanical side and untill this is changed will we only go one route and that's not the route the fans want , I have been around bikes all my life , I have practically lived in a workshop for 30years and still own 7 bikes I am a real methonal head and I still say the engine doesn't matter to speedway fansAgree,they just don't see the big picture,all other forms of bike sport have implemented rules on modifications to machinery to try and create a level playing field and bring down costs,which in the main has succeeded.Bike sport in UK is thriving apart from Speedway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piston197 Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 in the Triumph speed triple challenge, the top finishing bikes were dyno tested at the end of the race, to ensure a level playing field and any making above the allowed horsepower were disqualified. Having said that a lollipop stick jammed and turned sideways between the carbs rubber and air box allowing more air in was givng an extra 3BHP, you just had to remember to pull it out on the wind down lap, still it was not expensive tuning and you got the joy of an ice-lolly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedibee Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 Who is buying the engines? If I had paid my own money to get these engines to then be told I'm not allowed to touch them at all id stop buying them and do something else, If the idea is the clubs by them then that's fine I guess although still think clubs would be unhappy about this, Also what happens when a rider rides individually who's buying the engines in the GP? Most other motor sports have classes where only homologated untouchable engines are used . these classes are usually the most popular with both competitors - like to compete on a level playing field at a reasonable cost , and spectators who are seeing closely contested races won by the most skilled not the fattest cheque book 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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