Gerhard Engine

[weatherwatcher]

The only way to stop anyoneone playing about with the engine is to factory seal them. After the seal is broken then the engine will be classed by the instectors at the meeting to be ileagle. I know it sounds a bit over the top. But something has to be done to bring the sport onto a level playing field where all riders are in the same situation. With engines that they can't play around with.

For one I think the bikes now are far to fast for what they are ment to do. Do we really need to see them going at speeds that are some times putting riders at risk. There have always been injuries and there always will, but at the speeds they go at now, when an accident happens it can be with rather drastic concequenses.

If it keeps going as it has over the past 15 or so years with the tuners getting every pennies worth of speed out of the bike, then they will get to the stage where they are unridable altogether.

This engine looks good and what I saw of Harris or the little we saw the engine seems to be competative enough, without needing to be played around with.

But I still feel that there is a need to slow things down again. Don't think we need to go back to the old uprights, but if that is the answer, then that is the road to take, before we end up with rider getting injjured so bad that they never ride again or worse still getting killed. The youger riders are riding above and beyond their abillities at times, So now could be the time to make the changes.

Make the engines slower, sealed at the factory. I think you would see far better, closer racing than what we are seeing these days.

A lot of work has been put nto this unit. I take my hat off to everone inlved with it, down to the lad that makes the tea.i

[speedibee]

As a fan with zero mechanical nous, please don't laugh, but will the tuners not be able to expensively tweak the Gerhard engine to give their customers an advantage ?

spot on . wouldn't be at all surprised ,if peter johns has already had one apart to see which bits can be lightened or replaced with titanium , speedway is it's own worst enemy , because instead of protecting the longevity aspect of this engine , the authorities will be encouraging "Tuners" to improve them ..

The only way to stop anyoneone playing about with the engine is to factory seal them. After the seal is broken then the engine will be classed by the instectors at the meeting to be ileagle. I know it sounds a bit over the top. But something has to be done to bring the sport onto a level playing field where all riders are in the same situation. With engines that they can't play around with.

For one I think the bikes now are far to fast for what they are ment to do. Do we really need to see them going at speeds that are some times putting riders at risk. There have always been injuries and there always will, but at the speeds they go at now, when an accident happens it can be with rather drastic concequenses.

If it keeps going as it has over the past 15 or so years with the tuners getting every pennies worth of speed out of the bike, then they will get to the stage where they are unridable altogether.

This engine looks good and what I saw of Harris or the little we saw the engine seems to be competative enough, without needing to be played around with.

But I still feel that there is a need to slow things down again. Don't think we need to go back to the old uprights, but if that is the answer, then that is the road to take, before we end up with rider getting injjured so bad that they never ride again or worse still getting killed. The youger riders are riding above and beyond their abillities at times, So now could be the time to make the changes.

Make the engines slower, sealed at the factory. I think you would see far better, closer racing than what we are seeing these days.

A lot of work has been put nto this unit. I take my hat off to everone inlved with it, down to the lad that makes the tea.i

easy way to slow them down , change to petrol , 30% less power , run lower compression so theres less stress on bottom end components , only problem is the heat because pterol burns hotter than methanol

[weatherwatcher]

Build a speedway steam engine. Fired with charcoal pellets. Bet they never thought of that one.. Super speedway at 4 m.p.h

[Countershaftcounter]

All this talk of saving the younger riders money is false… imagine the following

 

1, The Gerard engine turns out to be a winner

2, Lots of the top boys buy them ( at the rumoured cost of 5 grand a pop )

3, The market becomes flooded with tons of secondhand GM's

 

What option do young riders have ? Either stick with the costly to run and maintain GM's or invest 10 grand in two Gerhard engines. ( before anyone starts the "why do they need two bikes" ? Most clubs stipulate the two bike rule in contracts).

 

Also in the event of any blow ups I hope there's a large store of spares going to be available for the inevitable "i need this motor repaired NOW as i have a meeting tomorrow" scenario which happens all the time.

 

Also, Jawa are coming back with a new engine too at the moment, not to mention the new Godden undergoing track testing in Germany this week.

[FAST GATER]

All this talk of saving the younger riders money is false… imagine the following

 

1, The Gerard engine turns out to be a winner

2, Lots of the top boys buy them ( at the rumoured cost of 5 grand a pop )

3, The market becomes flooded with tons of secondhand GM's

 

What option do young riders have ? Either stick with the costly to run and maintain GM's or invest 10 grand in two Gerhard engines. ( before anyone starts the "why do they need two bikes" ? Most clubs stipulate the two bike rule in contracts).

 

Also in the event of any blow ups I hope there's a large store of spares going to be available for the inevitable "i need this motor repaired NOW as i have a meeting tomorrow" scenario which happens all the time.

 

Also, Jawa are coming back with a new engine too at the moment, not to mention the new Godden undergoing track testing in Germany this week.

All that is true but if a factory sealed engine is competitive and running costs are fixed all the others will have to fall in line ,the tuners will have to comply or be outlawed.This is a real chance to bring things back to an affordable sport, I have no issue with tuners perosnally but their cost are too high for today's sport.We need to work back from what is needed by the sport and not say it can't be done as always happens .It needs these engines phased in of a number of years a long term plan which is alien to speedway I know, look how they managed to achieve the air/fence safety at all tracks and the uproar when it was first mooted .

[Humphrey Appleby]

The only way to stop anyoneone playing about with the engine is to factory seal them.

That does little to prevent tuning. Even the most reliable engines have to be serviced, so you just get the service agents to rebuild the engine with legitimate selected parts. So you end-up having to buy ten engines to find the best parts from each to make a good one.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby

[weatherwatcher]

Can't see any thing like that happening. How many speedway nation or shall I say major speedway nation do we have, a hand full.

So I see no problems what so ever, with setting up a reliable, group of service agents. If the engine blows up with it being a sealed unit, with a guarantee, no doubt, they will do a service exghange either free or at a small cost. As they would then rebuilt the engine and sell it on again or exchange it. Servicing so be no great problem, we service our cars and there should be no difference. It is not like there is a quater of a million speedway riders. But hopefully enough to get this whole thing up and running.

This is just the thing that speedway these days needs. All the riders on a level playing field, using either or the other of the engines on offer, the only difference being that they can't play about with them other than jetting and point settings.

If the tuners feel hard done by, then they can alway get a job, rebuilding the engines, without all the tweeks, to get the rider with the most money to spend, at the top of the tree.

Would it do speedway any good. I think so, because if this was done and done fairly, then it would then be down to the skills of the said riders, to prove they have the skills, not the fastest bike off the tapes as is the case now. With a long strung out line following him

[speedibee]

Can't see any thing like that happening. How many speedway nation or shall I say major speedway nation do we have, a hand full.

So I see no problems what so ever, with setting up a reliable, group of service agents. If the engine blows up with it being a sealed unit, with a guarantee, no doubt, they will do a service exghange either free or at a small cost. As they would then rebuilt the engine and sell it on again or exchange it. Servicing so be no great problem, we service our cars and there should be no difference. It is not like there is a quater of a million speedway riders. But hopefully enough to get this whole thing up and running.

This is just the thing that speedway these days needs. All the riders on a level playing field, using either or the other of the engines on offer, the only difference being that they can't play about with them other than jetting and point settings.

If the tuners feel hard done by, then they can alway get a job, rebuilding the engines, without all the tweeks, to get the rider with the most money to spend, at the top of the tree.

Would it do speedway any good. I think so, because if this was done and done fairly, then it would then be down to the skills of the said riders, to prove they have the skills, not the fastest bike off the tapes as is the case now. With a long strung out line following him

There are quite a few riders who do their own engines , so what about those , it's a single cylinder 500 cc 4 stroke ,not rocket science , so a network of service agents however large means riders are forced into uneccessary expense

[FAST GATER]

The only people who will stop this working are those with vested interests ,tell the ACE tuners to keep theirs fingers out of the jar and have strict and inforced penalties for those who break the rules.

There are quite a few riders who do their own engines , so what about those , it's a single cylinder 500 cc 4 stroke ,not rocket science , so a network of service agents however large means riders are forced into uneccessary expense

Life is like that sadly this has to be done for the majority of riders and they may not pay out that much more because they must buy parts etc,if you try to consider every angle nothing will happen .

Edited June 2, 2015 by FAST GATER

[speedibee]

The only people who will stop this working are those with vested interests ,tell the ACE tuners to keep theirs fingers out of the jar and have strict and inforced penalties for those who break the rules.

Life is like that sadly this has to be done for the majority of riders and they may not pay out that much more because they must buy parts etc,if you try to consider every angle nothing will happen .

Production road racing allows the tuning of an engine to "blueprint" . the engines are not sealed , the machine examination procedure is far more technical than speedway though , if speedway were to be standardised technical inspection would need to be far more strict than it is now ..

[weatherwatcher]

I should think a lot of the PL, NL and MDL lads etc have to play about with their own engines. If it is true what they say about this new engine then it should run all season with very little having to be done to it. So no more dirty fingers, or your dad clouting you around the earhole because you has mislaid a vital part and you haven't got another in the garrage and you race again tonight.

So no, I think this new engine is on to winner, that is as long as people are not alowed to fiddle and play about with it just so they can get a faster engine than the rest. Keep it seeled. Let them play about with point set up, and gearing. Other than that or changing or topping up the oil, then you get your fingers out of the pie.

Production road racing allows the tuning of an engine to "blueprint" . the engines are not sealed , the machine examination procedure is far more technical than speedway though , if speedway were to be standardised technical inspection would need to be far more strict than it is now ..

Not a great deal for he insectors to do other than make sure that a seal put on at the facory or agent for the engins are not tampered with. After all as you said a few post ago. it is a single 4 valve engine, not much different to my old Rudge 1932 500cc single cylidar special.

[TheReturn]

This is a fascinating thread (for a non technical person). Going back through history, does anybody know who the first rider to ride a lay down engine in a competitive meeting?

[Humphrey Appleby]

So I see no problems what so ever, with setting up a reliable, group of service agents. If the engine blows up with it being a sealed unit, with a guarantee, no doubt, they will do a service exghange either free or at a small cost

You won't find many engine builders willing to give much of a guarantee on a high revving racing engine. There's too many things that can break, accidents that can happen, not to mention user error.

 

Regardless of what you do, riders would soon establish a relationship with a favoured service agent who'd built them a perfectly legal selected parts engine. No matter how well engineered or what the quality control on a particular engine type is, there will always be variations between one and another. The top riders will simply buy umpteen engines to find the ones with the best parts.

 

Equally, you'll get always get the odd engine that simply doesn't run as well as others. What do riders do if they have the misfortune to get stuck with one of those?

 

Servicing so be no great problem, we service our cars and there should be no difference.

Regular cars are not usually run to their maximum tolerances, and certainly not most of the time. If you revved the average car engine constantly between 10 and 15,000 revs without changing gear, I doubt your dealer would entertain the warranty when you brought it in for a service.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby

[speedibee]

This is a fascinating thread (for a non technical person). Going back through history, does anybody know who the first rider to ride a lay down engine in a competitive meeting?

I believe that was Martin Hagon . back in the 80's the Hagon horizontal , of course way back in the 20's when engines were just motorbike engines there would have been some , but I think Hagon was the first speedway laydown

[Sings4Speedway]

If the sealed route is taken then either clubs or the scb are going to need some deep pockets. As a suggestion only;

There is a central pool of engines.

These are delivered to the meeting on the day.

Lots are then drawn to decide who gets which engine (one per rider plus two team spares?)

Riders fit to bike on the day and set up as required (short practice session might be needed?)

Engines removed after the meeting and returned to the central pool for the next meeting.

 

That said based on the elite league alone if all teams were in action on the same day that's 8 teams x 9 engines (7 riders + 2 spares) = 72 engines minimum in the central pool. Even if the riders were made to rent the engines per meeting it would still require an initial outlay of in excess of £360,000 for the countries smallest league.

[FAST GATER]

If the sealed route is taken then either clubs or the scb are going to need some deep pockets. As a suggestion only;

There is a central pool of engines.

These are delivered to the meeting on the day.

Lots are then drawn to decide who gets which engine (one per rider plus two team spares?)

Riders fit to bike on the day and set up as required (short practice session might be needed?)

Engines removed after the meeting and returned to the central pool for the next meeting.

 

That said based on the elite league alone if all teams were in action on the same day that's 8 teams x 9 engines (7 riders + 2 spares) = 72 engines minimum in the central pool. Even if the riders were made to rent the engines per meeting it would still require an initial outlay of in excess of £360,000 for the countries smallest league.

£ 360,000 not a huge sum in the grand scheme of things really to turn the sport around wonder what the top GP lads spend themselves on their engines ?

[ford]

That does little to prevent tuning. Even the most reliable engines have to be serviced, so you just get the service agents to rebuild the engine with legitimate selected parts. So you end-up having to buy ten engines to find the best parts from each to make a good one.

 

Well as I have said before have a rule that says the winning engine can be bought for at least full retail price at the end of the meeting.

 

That should stop anyone spending £50,000 on 10 engines to make a good one.

[weatherwatcher]

The great powers above would have to nip the top riders in the bud before they got the chance to go and buy 10 or 20 engines to try and find that one that is a little bit special. Go down the road of limiting what they can buy. If the engine as it states on the packet will run for the season with nothing or very little having to be done to it. Then make that limit 3 engines per rider, a wash a wear and a spare. Not all the riders are going to want to change their engine suppliers. Having said that though, when they all see it out performing the GM then they are going to be tumbling over themselves to give it a go. So now is the time, to stop all the tinkerers, from stripping and trying to get the extra, horse power of revs out of a product, that should be left well alone, but the guys at the top of the tree are only interested in being exactly that. If it means spoiling a product that has had so much hard work put into it by Gerhard, etc, then they should not even be allowed to buy them. Let the engines be used by people who apprecite all the hard work that has been put in.

Unlike the GM unit, that was developed, by the engine manifacturer, to be played and tinkered around with, to get that extra ounce of blood out of it, they where happy and so where the top tuners.

This engine though is sent out by Gerhard as a complete package, so why spoil it. Do any of you go and by an electric kettle and stripit down to put a bigger element in it, so you can get a faster cup of tea, no.

So unless you are happy to leave this engine alone, then stay with the GM route.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Well as I have said before have a rule that says the winning engine can be bought for at least full retail price at the end of the meeting.

That should stop anyone spending £50,000 on 10 engines to make a good one.

That's of course one way of doing things, although you'd be a bit annoyed if you'd happened to naturally find a good engine off-the-shelf.

 

As someone else has already mentioned, you could evaluate engines against a standard fiche, but that would be quite a time consuming process

This engine though is sent out by Gerhard as a complete package, so why spoil it. Do any of you go and by an electric kettle and stripit down to put a bigger element in it, so you can get a faster cup of tea, no.

Yes, but people would if there were races to make tea...

 

The reasons people tinker with race engines is because they want to go faster than their opponents, and so will aim to squeeze every tolerance. If they don't, their opponents will, and presumably they feel the trade-off in higher costs is worthwhile.

 

Limiting the number of engines isn't really going to help, unless you limit the number of internal components you can use as well. And that would require stamping serial numbers on every piece, and then pulling the engine apart periodically to check different parts hadn't been substituted. Even then, it's easy enough for a competent engineer to manufacture a part with an identical serial number.

 

I agree 'something should be done', but it's actually a difficult problem to solve.

[robolots]

We need more competition, Gm, Gerhard,Goddens,Jrm etc

For engine longevity all that needs to happen is a rev limit on the engines.

It's the riders choice of how much money he wants to spend, Some spend wisely and within their means and then there is those that listen to bull and waste their money.

Edited June 3, 2015 by robolots