Sir Jasper Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Well, what a bloody brilliant thread this has been. I applaud the fact that the BSPA are trying something, however it does seem again that its been rushed through slightly. At pretty much every level of motorsport there are restrictions on performance etc, however speedway does not seem to have moved on. IMO the best thing British speedway could do is to set up a technical committee, to think such projects through, eg we have had an ex rider give seemingly sensible thoughts, plus an engine tuner putting a bit of meat on the bones. Why have such people not been consulted? There must be vast knowledge knocking around the sport why is not being used to enhance the standards of the british riders? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHTECH Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Well, what a bloody brilliant thread this has been. I applaud the fact that the BSPA are trying something, however it does seem again that its been rushed through slightly. At pretty much every level of motorsport there are restrictions on performance etc, however speedway does not seem to have moved on. IMO the best thing British speedway could do is to set up a technical committee, to think such projects through, eg we have had an ex rider give seemingly sensible thoughts, plus an engine tuner putting a bit of meat on the bones. Why have such people not been consulted? There must be vast knowledge knocking around the sport why is not being used to enhance the standards of the british riders? Its something that has to be done at a higher level. The FIM need a technical committee i believe. I have just read Chris Louis article in the speedway star which was interesting read. Its another example of someones opinion being put through the right channels to be heard but unfortunately he is wrong. Me and around 20 other engine tuners/retailers visited the Suter factory in 2015. It cost me around 600 pounds to make the trip there but i thought it would be worth it to see what Suter/GTR have to offer. It was a pleasant trip and we actually debated in the meeting the actual structure of the business then asked why we were invited to the meeting if the plan was to cut out the tuners all together. They believed there was a place in this for us but the engines at that stage were 7000 euros retail. Which we all said was way to much and needed to be a lot lower. Marcel kindly stripped down the engine in front of us and showed us everything which is a lovely looking engine. Marcel is a perfectionist but anyone who is involved in engines in general noticed that there wasn't anything new in his engine. Its technology which is been seen in other forms of engines. The flywheels are pretty much the same as the GM has and like i said before i don't rate the wossner piston but thats each to there own. The cylinder head is completely different to the GM/Jawa as it has 2 camshafts. This technology has been around longer than i have existed so for Chris to say its something advanced is quite surprising. Agreed , The oil system is nice. It has jets to the piston for cooling and channels through the engine to the finger followers but again its nothing new. He also mentions that the quality and parts are a lot better than the GM. I disagree entirely. Its no different to what we use. We all buy from the same suppliers anyway. Interesting debate, I have had my say and think its probably best not to comment anymore. I hope that gives everyone a interesting insight into how things look from the other side. If anyone has any questions, Please feel free to contact me. Thanks Ash 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Any idea why the rev limiter has taken so long? Surely that was the logical first step all along, they started testing a long time ago and it seemed like the riders who tried it liked it then the idea seemed to disappear. I've always liked the idea as I think it's simple, relatively cheap and easy to police. Very little lost by anybody if the idea didn't work but it seems to have been bypassed for a far more expensive and complicated alternative. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHTECH Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Any idea why the rev limiter has taken so long? Surely that was the logical first step all along, they started testing a long time ago and it seemed like the riders who tried it liked it then the idea seemed to disappear. I've always liked the idea as I think it's simple, relatively cheap and easy to police. Very little lost by anybody if the idea didn't work but it seems to have been bypassed for a far more expensive and complicated alternative. Vince, It seems like anything simple to execute in speedway is always given the cold shoulder. Thanks Ash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronScorpion Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Peter Johns, in printed interviews, has said the biggest breakers of engines is over revving & cleanliness. As Ash has pointed out, the rev limiter is one of the ways to go. About the oil scenario, the GTR has its own pump & filter so does not need changing often(120-160 heats?). Peter Johns pointed out that it was best to use a certain oil & change the oil(850cc) every 2 heats making it another £50-60 per 2 meetings. Rock Oil is 1 make that a lot of riders have on their kevlars & bike covers & Motorrex is another top oil used. There are other cheaper options available. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHTECH Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) Peter Johns, in printed interviews, has said the biggest breakers of engines is over revving & cleanliness. As Ash has pointed out, the rev limiter is one of the ways to go. About the oil scenario, the GTR has its own pump & filter so does not need changing often(120-160 heats?). Peter Johns pointed out that it was best to use a certain oil & change the oil(850cc) every 2 heats making it another £50-60 per 2 meetings. Rock Oil is 1 make that a lot of riders have on their kevlars & bike covers & Motorrex is another top oil used. There are other cheaper options available. I cannot comment on what PJR does but the way i advise the riders is to keep the oil in the whole meeting. Then change it. I use the gauze filter surrounding the oil pump ( some people don't use them so might be why they change oil so often ) I don't like the way the engines are cooled as mechanics put air coolers on one side of the engine and cool one side of a hot cylinder and cylinder head, Its never cooled evenly. So i always want the oil to be a reasonable temperature so when they start the bike, The engine gets up to temperature evenly. I am not a fan of cold oil in a hot engine but thats my opinion , Everyone has there own ideas. You could probably use the oil more than one meeting but it's always nice to check if there is anything in the oil that could lead to a bigger problem later down the line. Thanks Ash Edited January 12, 2017 by ASHTECH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAST GATER Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 If that was to be the case, Sure GM could provide the same service as GTR not a problem. We all have CNC machined cylinder heads now and cams are not a problem. My engines will not be sealed. Why would you if its not compulsory? Which is why i am baffled that the BSPA have announced the GTR will be sealed and can only be touched by a service centre. You either do it for everyone, Or don't bother at all. Let me give you this scenario. A young rider has invested in a new GTR. There is a problem with it that someone local could fix for him but he has to drive half way across the country to get it fixed by a service centre but has a meeting the next day? What will he do? He can't get it fixed himself as from what Mr Godfrey/BSPA said in the speedway star if the seal is broken you wont be allowed to ride but the guy who has turned up with his GM/Jawa is completely fine. Like i said before, Not against change. Not against the GTR. Against the fact that once again this hasn't been thought through and the money that has been thrown into this project is ludicrous. Many thanks for your input I do accept that you are in an awkward position and have given a interesting and fair account from a tuners perspective . 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScotsman Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 I'm probably the least technically/mechanically aware person around, but I have found this thread to be sooooooo interesting!! Many thanks to Dean and Ash and everyone who has chipped in with knowledgeable nuggets!! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted January 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Interesting debate, I have had my say and think its probably best not to comment anymore. I hope that gives everyone a interesting insight into how things look from the other side. If anyone has any questions, Please feel free to contact me. I for one thank you. It's always nice to get a more technical background on things from the people who know. Its one part of speedway thats still very much a black art to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyretrax Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Charlie Monk used to bring hot oil in a Thermos (other flasks are availlable) to put into his engine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) A great thread... For me, a one make, sealed engine series is the way for Speedway in this country, (and many years late in its implementation).. For elsewhere, there can be a 'free for all' if they so wish... What the international riders need at Cardiif in the British GP is a million miles away from what the domestic riders need at Buxton the next week... Let's get British Speedway right and if a one make series (as so many motorsports do) helps sort out Speedway in this country then it has to be the way forward. Edited January 12, 2017 by mikebv 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 http://speedwaygp.com/news/article/5474/freddie-seeks-gtr-gold 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Skid Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 Haven't seen any Tuning shops up for sale yet in the UK, it's easier to buy a Speedway Club than a Tuning Shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) One thought occured to me: aren't folk going a little overboard a bit hasty-like re: GTR engines? I mean one rider, Freddie Lindgren, had a successful season using these motors and reported much reduced wear so he saved money and is happy. But Lindgren is a very good rider anyway so would know how to get the best out his equipment and look after it, not missing servicies or running his motors flat out even if they are not running 100% ok until they blow up. But we are talking about one rider using these engines over one season. I know Chris Harris had some rides on the GTR at GP level and Kelvin Tatum has had plenty of spins on them (again, both good riders) but suddenly people think these new motors could be speedway's salvation. When Weslakes, JAWA 4-valves, Goddens and GMs were launched they were supplied to a few different riders, works riders, who used them and presumably gave feedback to improve the engine(s). Their success sales grew and gave speedway the situation were GM became almost every riders' weapon of choice. I DO hope the GTRS are competitive at all levels, it will make speedway more interesting, and I certainly hope they DO reduce costs (a blow up 20 laps after a service is no fun for any rider) but it just seems to me folk are jumping the gun a little. Like I said, just a thought.... Edited January 17, 2017 by Martin Mauger 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Speedway tends to rush for the "next best thing". A lot of people here are putting down the tuners but let's be honest Marcel Gerhard is in business, selling his new speedway engines. He is not doing it for free, or at cost, he has a vested interest in the success of the GTR. I still think introducing a rev limiter too be fitted to all bikes would have been a cheaper way to try to limit costs for 2017 and the need for so much servicing. Then we could have considered more carefully the wholesale acceptance of the GTR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Speedway tends to rush for the "next best thing". A lot of people here are putting down the tuners but let's be honest Marcel Gerhard is in business, selling his new speedway engines. He is not doing it for free, or at cost, he has a vested interest in the success of the GTR. I still think introducing a rev limiter too be fitted to all bikes would have been a cheaper way to try to limit costs for 2017 and the need for so much servicing. Then we could have considered more carefully the wholesale acceptance of the GTR. A rev limiter is unlikely to increase service intervals significantly. You might think it levels the playing field but everyone on rev limited GMs would still be in the hands of the current tuners. The GTR is DOHC whereas the GM is SOHC, the GTR has superior lubrication and is more tolerant to missed services (which are much less frequent than those required by other engines). There are now claims that GM and possibly Jawa are working on better engines, that might be considered a reaction to the GTR and is certainly an admission of the imperfections of their existing models. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkidSolo Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Speedway tends to rush for the "next best thing". A lot of people here are putting down the tuners but let's be honest Marcel Gerhard is in business, selling his new speedway engines. He is not doing it for free, or at cost, he has a vested interest in the success of the GTR. I still think introducing a rev limiter too be fitted to all bikes would have been a cheaper way to try to limit costs for 2017 and the need for so much servicing. Then we could have considered more carefully the wholesale acceptance of the GTR. Yep he is in business alright, I am sure Agostina knows what she is talking about and is passionate about her father's business but it cannot hinder their cause that she is stunning, was it the actual Star article or the picture on page 6 that was the eye opener for some? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sings4Speedway Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Success will always bring imitators. 'IF' GM & Jawa improve the lubrication system of their new engines it could be disastrous for the GTR project as while riders will always pursue the fastest options they are also creatures of habit. How long have a multitude of silencers been available, 5 years? and how many riders still choose King as the default pipe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner85 Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 We know the Bspa have set up a deal re these engines. But how many were available and how many have been bought ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 We know the Bspa have set up a deal re these engines. But how many were available and how many have been bought ? Very good question. It would be very interesting to know............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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