Gerhard Engine

[foamfence]

Can you see countries like Poland Sweden Denmark making these compulsory for riders ? you could also have 4 at each track in the country to try and every one will perform different you never get 2 engines the same no matter who builds them

This isn't about other countries. I remember Ivan Mauger saying that if you raced four two valve JAWAs down a drag strip they would all finish withing a few feet of each other. While these aren't two valve JAWAs, there should be very little difference between them.

[IronScorpion]

The engines should, on a dyno, perform similar but on track, they will be different. Why? Bike set-ups, track surface, riders weight & size, tyre pressures, etc.

 

The bikes themselves will be individually set up via fly wheels, carburation jetting, air filter, ignition timing, gearing, wheelbase are just the main set up options.

[f-s-p]

It was a good article in Spar regarding the engines, a real eye opener. Basically a single big enough reason to pay and buy that issue.

[foamfence]

It was a good article in Spar regarding the engines, a real eye opener. Basically a single big enough reason to pay and buy that issue.

Is it on the shelf with the skimmed milk?

[foamfence]

Glasgow Tigers ‏@_glasgowtigers 1h1 hour ago

BACK ON TRACK: Dynamite Dan Bewley makes his official return this Sunday at Scunthorpes amateur meeting, testing the new GTR engine.

[mac101]

He is still waiting on his new GM,s to come for this season so may as well have a free go lol

[Sings4Speedway]

He is still waiting on his new GM,s to come for this season so may as well have a free go lol

Good point he has nothing to lose. He does well he has fully recovered, does not so well he was getting used to the GTR engines.

[ASHTECH]

well think about it , if sealed engines were made mandatory and only certain people like Trevor hedge were allowed to service them , the tuners have no business so obviously they are going to rubbish the idea but tough , this is about the future of speedway not some individuals and some of those individuals don't care a stuff about the people on the teraces

put aside the costs for a second and see what we would have if the GTR became mandatory , all the engines were identical from factory and then sealed , means every rider from the MDL to the premier league will be on the same engine , which in theory means a rider who was in the national league could ride in the premiership and if talent allowed would be competitive of which isn't the case now , the manufactuers (not Gerhard) are saying the engine should do 250 races which is a season without issue , that in my eyes is all you can ask from an engine really ,to me it levels the playing field out

 

 

I would just like to bat bit for the engine tuners here.

 

I have personally been helping FIM with numerous engine tests ( all for free i must add ) and dyno work for the last couple of years. Since the 2010 Silencer fiasco the FIM have learnt from there mistakes and on a non offical basis have asked for some help and advice from some of the tuners on whats the next step to cut costs and make the sport safer.

 

Marcel has been very clever in the way he has introduced the GTR. I praise him for that. Everyone knows engines fail due too Fatigue. Simple. And over revving is something that will never go away in speedway. The way you handle that is the key. Marcel knew straight away that the GTR had to have the RPM limiter on from the beginning to give him the longevity that speedway is searching for. He hit the nail on the head but as i have argued with Mr Tatum and the GTR backers , Put the same ignition coil with the RPM limiter on a GM, You will get the same running time / Service intervals out of a GM.

 

Don't be fooled into the GTR oil system is more advanced than the GM. It has to be because of the cylinder head configuration. This system the GTR/Suter took from the KTM engine and works very well. But i must add that the latest 450 KTM factory engine has reverted back to the single overhead cam , Like the GM uses for weight and performance purposes.

 

I went to the GTR dealer meeting in Switzerland in October last year and was really impressed with the set up at Suter. They really have a nice factory, But they have nothing there that GM can't produce or provide and thats where my next point comes. Why don't we give GM a little bit more credit for what he has done?

 

People talk about a monopoly, Its nonsense. JAWA/JRM have been around longer than GM and were ahead of the game in the 90's but GM produced a better product and now they have the market. I know for a fact that GM have been pushing for certain aspects to be brought in and have seen the letters they have sent to the BSPA which have been ignored.

 

People might say i am biased because i am a GM agent. No, Its because i appreciate what the GM engine actually does under the stress's its under. Its a wonderful, Simple engine.

 

Anyway, Whatever way it goes i wish Marcel and the GTR team the best of luck.

 

The thing that annoy's me the most as a speedway fan is the fact that the BSPA are complaining about the sport being to expensive etc etc but then go out and invest 360,000 pounds to fund the GTR production for 100 engines. That amount of money could of started a whole new league for juniors in the UK yet they take punt on something that in reality, No one knows a lot about.

 

We can talk about Freddie doing so many races etc etc but lets face it he has a sponsored GTR works rider so he will always be a little biased. What about the issues some of the team USA riders had with a couple of engines at the WTC? The GTR engine that blew to bits after 40 races for a german rider in August? We don't hear any of that. All we hear is how un reliable the GM is etc etc. I had a rider the UK who did 100 meetings and spent 5000 pounds on his engine services last year. Thats 50 pound a meeting on running a engine for the year? Is that a lot of money in motorsport? You don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out how much a rider at that level would earn of the back of doing 100 meetings.

 

Klymakorpi has been quite vocal about using the RPM limiter on his PJR engines and has spoken about how much work he has done on them between service intervals.

 

Karger has only said what PJR & Tatum said in the speedway star a few weeks ago. Its a no brainer to have a rev limiter and i am 99% sure in the next 2 year it will be compulsory anyway. Anyone who disagrees with this doesn't deserve the right to comment on a topic about engines.

 

All us tuners wish for is a level playing field. Speedway is too expensive, We get it. But its motorsport. Progression is part of that an there will always be a cost for that progression. But i can tell you for a fact, In speedway money cannot buy you success. There have been many examples of that over the years yet the engine tuners always get the blame for conning people. We do our job, We are paid for it but there are only a few of us that actually do ok out of it but that is purely performance based. if we don't perform , We don't get paid. Simple. So the future of the sport means just as much to us as it does to you and all the fans. All of us who are doing this job are speedway fans also.

 

Thanks

 

Ash Holloway

Edited January 12, 2017 by ASHTECH

[Daniel Smith]

 

 

I would just like to bat bit for the engine tuners here.

 

I have personally been helping FIM with numerous engine tests ( all for free i must add ) and dyno work for the last couple of years. Since the 2010 Silencer fiasco the FIM have learnt from there mistakes and on a non offical basis have asked for some help and advice from some of the tuners on whats the next step to cut costs and make the sport safer.

 

Marcel has been very clever in the way he has introduced the GTR. I praise him for that. Everyone knows engines fail due too Fatigue. Simple. And over revving is something that will never go away in speedway. The way you handle that is the key. Marcel knew straight away that the GTR had to have the RPM limiter on from the beginning to give him the longevity that speedway is searching for. He hit the nail on the head but as i have argued with Mr Tatum and the GTR backers , Put the same ignition coil with the RPM limiter on a GM, You will get the same running time / Service intervals out of a GM.

 

Don't be fooled into the GTR oil system is more advanced than the GM. It has to be because of the cylinder head configuration. This system the GTR/Suter took from the KTM engine and works very well. But i must add that the latest 450 KTM factory engine has reverted back to the single overhead cam , Like the GM uses for weight and performance purposes.

 

I went to the GTR dealer meeting in Switzerland in October last year and was really impressed with the set up at Suter. They really have a nice factory, But they have nothing there that GM can't produce or provide and thats where my next point comes. Why don't we give GM a little bit more credit for what he has done?

 

People talk about a monopoly, Its nonsense. JAWA/JRM have been around longer than GM and were ahead of the game in the 90's but GM produced a better product and now they have the market. I know for a fact that GM have been pushing for certain aspects to be brought in and have seen the letters they have sent to the BSPA which have been ignored.

 

People might say i am biased because i am a GM agent. No, Its because i appreciate what the GM engine actually does under the stress's its under. Its a wonderful, Simple engine.

 

Anyway, Whatever way it goes i wish Marcel and the GTR team the best of luck.

 

The thing that annoy's me the most as a speedway fan is the face that the BSPA are complaining about the sport being to expensive etc etc but then go out and invest 360,000 pounds to fund the GTR production for 100 engines. That amount of money could of started a whole new league for juniors in the UK yet they take punt on something that in reality, No one knows a lot about.

 

We can talk about Freddie doing so many races etc etc but lets face it he has a sponsored GTR works rider so he will always be a little biased. What about the issues some of the team USA riders had with a couple of engines at the WTC? The GTR engine that blew to bits after 40 races for a german rider in August? We don't hear any of that. All we hear is how un reliable the GM is etc etc. I had a rider the UK who did 100 meetings and spent 5000 pounds on his engine services last year. Thats 50 pound a meeting on running a engine for the year? Is that a lot of money in motorsport? You don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out how much a rider at that level would earn of the back of doing 100 meetings.

 

Klymakorpi has been quite vocal about using the RPM limiter on his PJR engines and has spoken about how much work he has done on them between service intervals.

 

Karger has only said what PJR & Tatum said in the speedway star a few weeks ago. Its a no brainer to have a rev limiter and i am 99% sure in the next 2 year it will be compulsory anyway. Anyone who disagrees with this doesn't deserve the right to comment on a topic about engines.

 

All us tuners wish for is a level playing field. Speedway is too expensive, We get it. But its motorsport. Progression is part of that an there will always be a cost for that progression. But i can tell you for a fact, In speedway money cannot buy you success. There have been many examples of that over the years yet the engine tuners always get the blame for conning people. We do our job, We are paid for it but there are only a few of us that actually do ok out of it but that is purely performance based. if we don't perform , We don't get paid. Simple. So the future of the sport means just as much to us as it does to you and all the fans. All of us who are doing this job are speedway fans also.

 

Thanks

 

Ash Holloway

 

That is an excellent piece Ash and sure to be fully appreciated by everybody, thank you for that

 

Just a couple of questions regarding your service costs as highlighted in your post.

 

The BSPA GTR's are open to all riders to purchase but really their market is to try and entice the riders that don't earn the high end bucks because of it's (supposed) longevity before service.

 

Are your engines tuned / serviced / priced differently compared to the standard of the rider?

Would the engines of a National League rider run longer than a rider chasing the special faster parts etc?

Or regardless of service / parts costs the longevity of the GM is the same?

[ASHTECH]

 

That is an excellent piece Ash and sure to be fully appreciated by everybody, thank you for that

 

Just a couple of questions regarding your service costs as highlighted in your post.

 

The BSPA GTR's are open to all riders to purchase but really their market is to try and entice the riders that don't earn the high end bucks because of it's (supposed) longevity before service.

 

Are your engines tuned / serviced / priced differently compared to the standard of the rider?

Would the engines of a National League rider run longer than a rider chasing the special faster parts etc?

Or regardless of service / parts costs the longevity of the GM is the same?

Hi Dan,

 

 

I have 2 options of engines.

 

1 is a GM engine with factory parts and a RPM limiter aimed at the entry level riders. The price of that is 3000 pounds + vat

 

2 is a GM engine with my tuning parts. The price of that is 4300 pounds + vat.

 

The problem i have is that whenever you offer this option to people, They always go with the more expensive option. I have recently sold a GM factory engine (built by myself) to a UK rider with the RPM limiter and he will run this now for 100 heats.

 

My service charges are:

 

252 for labour plus parts.

 

I do a reduced rate for any riders sending there engine from he UK to my Polish workshop to help cover the cost of the freight which is usually 60 pounds both ways, I usually split that and take it off the labour.

 

On average , My riders at UK level are doing 40-50 races per service. They could do more but its the same old thing, If the rider is earning money they want just invest a little in there engines so they get it done a little earlier to make sure its totally fresh for the play offs etc etc. But most of the time the engine will be able to do a lot more than they are actually doing.

 

Heres the point, It doesn't matter what engine you ride.... Fatigue will set in at some point so if its a GM or a GTR they are going to need the parts replacing. Piston speeds and the engine configuration is exactly the same as the GM so why all of a sudden should the GTR do more races than the GM ? I infact would not touch the wossner piston , producer for the GTR's pistons with a bargepole if i am totally honest. So why should that do more than a cosworth/ GM Asso piston?

 

The answer isn't to buy a GTR at national league level for 4000 + vat and think your problems are over. At some stage, That will need a new piston , A new con rod, New titanium valves, new valve springs just like a GM so why would it be cheaper? i have seen the GTR price list and its not cheap.

 

The facts are people are coming with keep contradicting themselves. The truth is, It's not a proven enough product in my eyes to warrant a 360,000 pound investment.

 

Simple test. Do what Klymakorpi did, Put a limiter on at 13,000 and see how long the GM lasts.

 

If any one who wants to start speedway reads this, buy a 1500 bike off e bay take the engine to my colleague in Swindon Dave broome before you start. Get the engine serviced, and invest in a RPM limiter ( about 500/600 pounds for the service with parts & ignition i would presume) Get him to service the carb also so for under 2500 you have a complete bike ready to race which will do the whole season (depending on what level you are at your career)

 

Just a thought: No one has ever asked me about all the old parts i have here which are more than suitable to be passed down through the ranks. I donate everything to the training school at Torun who have a guy there who uses them for kids starting out. I am sure PJR throws stuff away which is more than suitable for people starting off. I wonder if anyone has ever approached him.

 

Thanks

 

Ash

Edited January 12, 2017 by bigash

[FAST GATER]

Hi Dan,

 

 

I have 2 options of engines.

 

1 is a GM engine with factory parts and a RPM limiter aimed at the entry level riders. The price of that is 3000 pounds + vat

 

2 is a GM engine with my tuning parts. The price of that is 4300 pounds + vat.

 

The problem i have is that whenever you offer this option to people, They always go with the more expensive option. I have recently sold a GM factory engine (built by myself) to a UK rider with the RPM limiter and he will run this now for 100 heats.

 

My service charges are:

 

252 for labour plus parts.

 

I do a reduced rate for any riders sending there engine from he UK to my Polish workshop to help cover the cost of the freight which is usually 60 pounds both ways, I usually split that and take it off the labour.

 

On average , My riders at UK level are doing 40-50 races per service. They could do more but its the same old thing, If the rider is earning money they want just invest a little in there engines so they get it done a little earlier to make sure its totally fresh for the play offs etc etc. But most of the time the engine will be able to do a lot more than they are actually doing.

 

Heres the point, It doesn't matter what engine you ride.... Fatigue will set in at some point so if its a GM or a GTR they are going to need the parts replacing. Piston speeds and the engine configuration is exactly the same as the GM so why all of a sudden should the GTR do more races than the GM ? I infact would not touch the wossner piston , producer for the GTR's pistons with a bargepole if i am totally honest. So why should that do more than a cosworth/ GM Asso piston?

 

The answer isn't to buy a GTR at national league level for 4000 + vat and think your problems are over. At some stage, That will need a new piston , A new con rod, New titanium valves, new valve springs just like a GM so why would it be cheaper? i have seen the GTR price list and its not cheap.

 

The facts are people are coming with keep contradicting themselves. The truth is, It's not a proven enough product in my eyes to warrant a 360,000 pound investment.

 

Simple test. Do what Klymakorpi did, Put a limiter on at 13,000 and see how long the GM lasts.

 

If any one who wants to start speedway reads this, buy a 1500 bike off e bay take the engine to my colleague in Swindon Dave broome before you start. Get the engine serviced, and invest in a RPM limiter ( about 500/600 pounds for the service with parts & ignition i would presume) Get him to service the carb also so for under 2500 you have a complete bike ready to race which will do the whole season (depending on what level you are at your career)

 

Just a thought: No one has ever asked me about all the old parts i have here which are more than suitable to be passed down through the ranks. I donate everything to the training school at Torun who have a guy there who uses them for kids starting out. I am sure PJR throws stuff away which is more than suitable for people starting off. I wonder if anyone has ever approached him.

 

Thanks

 

Ash

Nice to hear from the other side of the fence as it were but why have you not made a post like this in the past I think GTR is really shaking things up ,even if current tuners are able to choke it off in the end !!!!!

[ASHTECH]

Nice to hear from the other side of the fence as it were but why have you not made a post like this in the past I think GTR is really shaking things up ,even if current tuners are able to choke it off in the end !!!!!

Honestly it didn't bother me until i heard of the amount of money the BSPA have ploughed into it.

 

Thanks

 

Ash

[Sings4Speedway]

Thanks for your posts Ash very informative & transparent. For me the biggest issue with the GTR engines is the lack of readily available information. The service costs & parts list obviously exist but seem to be hidden from public view & certainly from potential buyers. I can't imagine anyone buying any other item without being able to gather all the facts.

I suspect most engines that are sent to you are probably capable of another 20 races but riders opt to service early as prevention is better than cure(or scrap if the engine blows) much in the same way that whilst GTR are quoting 100 races i suspect most will be sending them off after 80 maximum.

[ASHTECH]

Thanks for your posts Ash very informative & transparent. For me the biggest issue with the GTR engines is the lack of readily available information. The service costs & parts list obviously exist but seem to be hidden from public view & certainly from potential buyers. I can't imagine anyone buying any other item without being able to gather all the facts.

I suspect most engines that are sent to you are probably capable of another 20 races but riders opt to service early as prevention is better than cure(or scrap if the engine blows) much in the same way that whilst GTR are quoting 100 races i suspect most will be sending them off after 80 maximum.

Hi ,

 

My guess is that this whole thing has been rushed through due to the fact that the project couldn't carry on without investment so the business structure isn't in place yet. The project has been searching for investment over the last year and the BSPA have gone 50/50 with a private investor i am led to believe.

 

To start a production this late on in the year will be very hard for them to supply before the season starts. So i think price lists and other info are probably the least of there worries unfortunately . I can imagine its hard for them to give any idea on what things will cost due to the fluctuation of the Pound v Euro/Swiss Franc at the moment.

 

These are my thoughts only.

 

Thanks

 

Ash

[foamfence]

Then again, turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

[ASHTECH]

Then again, turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

 

Like i said , My thoughts only and unlike turkeys i am entitled to my opinion.

[Daniel Smith]

Hi Dan,

 

 

I have 2 options of engines.

 

1 is a GM engine with factory parts and a RPM limiter aimed at the entry level riders. The price of that is 3000 pounds + vat

 

2 is a GM engine with my tuning parts. The price of that is 4300 pounds + vat.

 

The problem i have is that whenever you offer this option to people, They always go with the more expensive option. I have recently sold a GM factory engine (built by myself) to a UK rider with the RPM limiter and he will run this now for 100 heats.

 

My service charges are:

 

252 for labour plus parts.

 

I do a reduced rate for any riders sending there engine from he UK to my Polish workshop to help cover the cost of the freight which is usually 60 pounds both ways, I usually split that and take it off the labour.

 

On average , My riders at UK level are doing 40-50 races per service. They could do more but its the same old thing, If the rider is earning money they want just invest a little in there engines so they get it done a little earlier to make sure its totally fresh for the play offs etc etc. But most of the time the engine will be able to do a lot more than they are actually doing.

 

Heres the point, It doesn't matter what engine you ride.... Fatigue will set in at some point so if its a GM or a GTR they are going to need the parts replacing. Piston speeds and the engine configuration is exactly the same as the GM so why all of a sudden should the GTR do more races than the GM ? I infact would not touch the wossner piston , producer for the GTR's pistons with a bargepole if i am totally honest. So why should that do more than a cosworth/ GM Asso piston?

 

The answer isn't to buy a GTR at national league level for 4000 + vat and think your problems are over. At some stage, That will need a new piston , A new con rod, New titanium valves, new valve springs just like a GM so why would it be cheaper? i have seen the GTR price list and its not cheap.

 

The facts are people are coming with keep contradicting themselves. The truth is, It's not a proven enough product in my eyes to warrant a 360,000 pound investment.

 

Simple test. Do what Klymakorpi did, Put a limiter on at 13,000 and see how long the GM lasts.

 

If any one who wants to start speedway reads this, buy a 1500 bike off e bay take the engine to my colleague in Swindon Dave broome before you start. Get the engine serviced, and invest in a RPM limiter ( about 500/600 pounds for the service with parts & ignition i would presume) Get him to service the carb also so for under 2500 you have a complete bike ready to race which will do the whole season (depending on what level you are at your career)

 

Just a thought: No one has ever asked me about all the old parts i have here which are more than suitable to be passed down through the ranks. I donate everything to the training school at Torun who have a guy there who uses them for kids starting out. I am sure PJR throws stuff away which is more than suitable for people starting off. I wonder if anyone has ever approached him.

 

Thanks

 

Ash

 

Thanks again Ash, brilliant reading. So appreciated.

I wasn't chasing prices but seeing as you'd added them it certainly added to the discussion.

 

So, when putting your 2 main posts together you'd be confident that the £4300 AshTech with limiter (extra cost?) would be competitive with the GTR over longevity, plus your service parts / charges would be cheaper than the GTR?

[ASHTECH]

 

Thanks again Ash, brilliant reading. So appreciated.

I wasn't chasing prices but seeing as you'd added them it certainly added to the discussion.

 

So, when putting your 2 main posts together you'd be confident that the £4300 AshTech with limiter (extra cost?) would be competitive with the GTR over longevity, plus your service parts / charges would be cheaper than the GTR?

 

Yes regarding that the oil i recommend goes in and its well maintained not a problem at all and the plus side to the ASH-TECH engine (or any other tuners) will be it will be made to suit.

But i speak for all the tuners on when i say this, as we all agree on the subject of RPM limiters , But like i said before soon it will be compulsory anyway.

 

The RPM limiters we have had in the past have been set too low that why people seem to be against them but the GTR is set at 13,200 i believe so the engines i will supply will have the same as they are from the same producer.

 

GM are currently making a new engine which will be available by the end of the season which will have a more sophisticated oil supply to the main components and a oil filter for those who wish to run there oil longer. A more compact valve train and simple design will make the engine lighter and easier to work on. This will lower service costs i am sure.

 

Thanks

[FAST GATER]

 

Yes regarding that the oil i recommend goes in and its well maintained not a problem at all and the plus side to the ASH-TECH engine (or any other tuners) will be it will be made to suit.

But i speak for all the tuners on when i say this, as we all agree on the subject of RPM limiters , But like i said before soon it will be compulsory anyway.

 

The RPM limiters we have had in the past have been set too low that why people seem to be against them but the GTR is set at 13,200 i believe so the engines i will supply will have the same as they are from the same producer.

 

GM are currently making a new engine which will be available by the end of the season which will have a more sophisticated oil supply to the main components and a oil filter for those who wish to run there oil longer. A more compact valve train and simple design will make the engine lighter and easier to work on. This will lower service costs i am sure.

 

Thanks

Will it be sealed and strictly monitored and every engine be the same or as near as they can be( I know the train of thought that no two engines are quite the same)or will we still have riders with the biggest pockets having an unfair edge as is the case now with GM's ?.

[ASHTECH]

Will it be sealed and strictly monitored and every engine be the same or as near as they can be( I know the train of thought that no two engines are quite the same)or will we still have riders with the biggest pockets having an unfair edge as is the case now with GM's ?.

 

If that was to be the case, Sure GM could provide the same service as GTR not a problem. We all have CNC machined cylinder heads now and cams are not a problem.

 

My engines will not be sealed. Why would you if its not compulsory? Which is why i am baffled that the BSPA have announced the GTR will be sealed and can only be touched by a service centre. You either do it for everyone, Or don't bother at all.

 

Let me give you this scenario. A young rider has invested in a new GTR. There is a problem with it that someone local could fix for him but he has to drive half way across the country to get it fixed by a service centre but has a meeting the next day? What will he do? He can't get it fixed himself as from what Mr Godfrey/BSPA said in the speedway star if the seal is broken you wont be allowed to ride but the guy who has turned up with his GM/Jawa is completely fine.

 

Like i said before, Not against change. Not against the GTR. Against the fact that once again this hasn't been thought through and the money that has been thrown into this project is ludicrous.