Gerhard Engine

[Bald Bloke]

Wont happen.To much money in Poland

Be ok in the UK.But how many guys will buy bikes just for the UK

[Gresham]

Wont happen.To much money in Poland

Be ok in the UK.But how many guys will buy bikes just for the UK

Poland has moved on...there is no way GB can compete now.

 

The only way Club Speedway can grow in this country, is if they go down a completely different route to what is the norm now. Basically start again.

 

You need to take away the expense of buying bikes and tuning from the individual riders.

 

BSPA needs to do a deal with the likes of JAWA...where Clubs own the engines. Or there is a big pot that the clubs pay in to, to finance buying the engines.

 

A big problem is mixing Club Speedway with Individual Speedway.

 

They should be two different concerns.

 

Standardised limited engines that aren't highly tuned and on breaking point, owned by the Clubs or BSPA, that are built to last and have little up keep compared to now. The engines kept in racing condition by mechanics employed by the Clubs or BSPA. These are what should be used in Club Speedway. That way riders can be paid accordingly. They will have less outlay in service and tuning costs and in buying engines. The only outlay for them, being their Individual rolling chassis. Why pay money to riders, where they are spending it on engines and tuning being used in Individual events for their own concerns, not the Clubs?

 

If riders want to ride in Individual events, then that's their concern, and it's up to them to finance it or find sponsors and build their own bikes for those events.

 

Yes it's a big change...but plodding along tinkering with the rules every season isn't going to help.

 

Club speedway in this country needs a big shake up and change in the way it's run.

 

Clubs and the Promotors need to take back more control and take the power back from some of the big hitting riders.

 

I'd be very happy to see no GP riders race Club speedway in this Country. They are a complete drain. And are far removed from the majority of the other riders in their team.

 

Start again...create Club riders...not riders that are focussing on Individual gains.

 

Personally I'd like to see two different codes created.

 

Individual Speedway riders....and Club Speedway riders. Where you either do one or the other. No way could that happen in it's present form...but speedway has allowed it to develop over it's history to how it is now. This is why it's become so hard to change.

[Sings4Speedway]

I can see the potential in the above points however the flaws are there always will be if the engines come from one large random pool.

E.g There are 100 engines in the pool for arguments sake Rider 1 gets engine no.17 uses it for a meeting and then when removing it drops a nice handful of dirt/shale in the engine inlet before handing it back. Next week Rider 1 has a 1 in 100 chance of getting that engine again, Rider 2 gets engine no.17 and has a ruined meeting due to engine failures.

 

The theory above is good but putting into practice is going to be difficult.

[*JJ]

And, of course, 100 engines at £5,000 a throw is half a million pounds ... who is going to pay that?

[Sings4Speedway]

And, of course, 100 engines at £5,000 a throw is half a million pounds ... who is going to pay that?

The paying public as ever. I agree that costs need to come down but personally feel a limit on points money reducing the available capital for riders to invest in engines & have to investigate cheaper alternatives themselves is a better way to go.

[foamfence]

And, of course, 100 engines at £5,000 a throw is half a million pounds ... who is going to pay that?

If you ordered 100 they would be cheaper than that, especially if you were offering exclusivity. Personally I doubt it will happen and the more likely contract would be with JAWA. You never know though, they might all be on electric bikes supplied by Dyson one day.

[Vince]

If you restricted British Speedway to Jawa supplied bikes only what would happen to the price a couple of years down the road, especially if GM don't survive the restriction of their trade?

[dabbsjoe]

one thing on the Kylmpakorpi doing 89 races or whatever on one engine with a rev limiter before needing a service.

 

what type of results was he getting with this engine ?

 

it's ok saying his service costs were lower because of it, but was he earning less because of it ?

 

his form for Wolves when I watched him was very inconsistent at best. his results was one of the reasons (and Tai being available) that he was dropped from the team.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Joe1986

[foamfence]

If you restricted British Speedway to Jawa supplied bikes only what would happen to the price a couple of years down the road, especially if GM don't survive the restriction of their trade?

A guarantee in the contract could be negotiated, GM would still have the rest of the Speedway world and access to the grass and longtrack markets.

[Gresham]

I can see the potential in the above points however the flaws are there always will be if the engines come from one large random pool.

E.g There are 100 engines in the pool for arguments sake Rider 1 gets engine no.17 uses it for a meeting and then when removing it drops a nice handful of dirt/shale in the engine inlet before handing it back. Next week Rider 1 has a 1 in 100 chance of getting that engine again, Rider 2 gets engine no.17 and has a ruined meeting due to engine failures.

 

The theory above is good but putting into practice is going to be difficult.

You don't allow the rider to take the engine out...or it's supervised. If every rider had that mentality, then it would eventually catch up with them. A different way of thinking has to occur. Damage an engine...then you damage your livelihood.

 

 

And, of course, 100 engines at £5,000 a throw is half a million pounds ... who is going to pay that?

You do a deal of exclusivity. Paid in instalments. It doesn't need to be JAWA, but they are the only manufacturer I know that produce engines, assembled straight from the factory and have the means to do it. Call it the Premier 'JAWA' league or whatever...with Sky TV, they would love the exposure I'm sure. Make it a long term contract and it's worth their while.

 

 

The paying public as ever. I agree that costs need to come down but personally feel a limit on points money reducing the available capital for riders to invest in engines & have to investigate cheaper alternatives themselves is a better way to go.

The riders pay would come down considerably. More would be gone towards buying 'Club Engines'...the rider would not have the cost of buying engines or maintaining them. A good percentage of riders costs go on this. Don't look at GP riders as examples...but your average Club rider. It's a different world for them. Plus more and more riders aren't getting paid by Clubs. So many are owed money. When you speak to mechanics and riders alike, or their sponsors, you hear the real story and not what you are led to believe in the media...it's far worse than many think.

 

 

If you restricted British Speedway to Jawa supplied bikes only what would happen to the price a couple of years down the road, especially if GM don't survive the restriction of their trade?

There will always be if's and but's...unfortunately the people who have been involved in Speedway for many years, the majority of the BSPA, have become blinkered and will always find a reason not to change. The sooner these people are out of speedway, the better...they are ruining Club Speedway, as they are so set in their ways. The younger Generation of Promotors will, I believe, have the courage to change...as they can see outside the box and the problems we have now.

 

It's a bit like the BREXIT vote...people voted for change, but there was no policy in place as to how it will work.

 

You sometimes just have to find ways of making it to work for the better, and overcome the obstacles, instead of continually finding reasons not to change.

 

Of course there would be hiccups...but it can't be any worse than it is now.

 

Club Speedway is struggling...the average rider struggles to survive. Why keep doing the same thing over and over again, when it's clear to see it isn't working?

Edited November 24, 2016 by Gresham

[mac101]

Clubs or the bspa owning engines will never happen it's too expensive for a start and why should they its the riders equipment to supply and maintain themselfs if they can't afford it then chuck it in and get a proper job like they did years ago when it was a hobby where you arranged around days off and hoildats , most clubs struggle every year and i don't think they can afford another expense ,Clubs need to kept a tight budget and live within that budget rather than give riders what they want offer what you can afford if he says no move on to the next one but every club needs to do it that way the promotors will eventually have the upper hand rather than the rider it will be better for clubs this year with so many riders not having team place with the rule changes and I have even been told a good few clubless riders are asking for less than they got last year just so they can get a team spot rather than miss out

[Gresham]

Clubs or the bspa owning engines will never happen it's too expensive for a start and why should they its the riders equipment to supply and maintain themselfs if they can't afford it then chuck it in and get a proper job like they did years ago when it was a hobby where you arranged around days off and hoildats , most clubs struggle every year and i don't think they can afford another expense ,Clubs need to kept a tight budget and live within that budget rather than give riders what they want offer what you can afford if he says no move on to the next one but every club needs to do it that way the promotors will eventually have the upper hand rather than the rider it will be better for clubs this year with so many riders not having team place with the rule changes and I have even been told a good few clubless riders are asking for less than they got last year just so they can get a team spot rather than miss out

And it's that sort of thinking that is killing this sport. With respect...you haven't touched on the issue of reducing engine and running costs. you can't just say...'if you can't afford it...tough'.

 

Speedway has hardly got any riders as it is.

[f-s-p]

And it's that sort of thinking that is killing this sport. With respect...you haven't touched on the issue of reducing engine and running costs. you can't just say...'if you can't afford it...tough'.

 

Speedway has hardly got any riders as it is.

Now that you've given me something to pick up on...

 

...and thats it's biggest problem, lack of riders. Because there arent enough, stupid rules hav to be written that everyone can ride everywhere. And when they get injured, hsit hit's the fan. Build from the ground up, but put the focus on increasing the number of riders. By doing that, you get new people in to the sport, new connections, new money, new volunteers... Especially this last sentence needs to happen quick, as the people that are currently keeping this boat afloat are getting old, tired and eventually broke...

[Tsunami]

Now that you've given me something to pick up on...

 

...and thats it's biggest problem, lack of riders. Because there arent enough, stupid rules hav to be written that everyone can ride everywhere. And when they get injured, hsit hit's the fan. Build from the ground up, but put the focus on increasing the number of riders. By doing that, you get new people in to the sport, new connections, new money, new volunteers... Especially this last sentence needs to happen quick, as the people that are currently keeping this boat afloat are getting old, tired and eventually broke...

Quite correct and the BSPA know it. With more Brits, less need for training foreign riders and therefore less DU"s and guests.

There is plenty going on in speedway to achieve the increase in Brit riders. Increased training sessions, British Youth Championships, Poultec schooling, MDL, NJL, Protected team positions and amended match formats, Training days, second half's, etc. Problem is they are all drip feed, but they WILL eventually start producing riders to replace the foreign riders. They have already started to come through from the initial good work of Neil Vatcher and Phil Morris, but in fairness you are needing probably say 4 years before you get a decent middle order team man.

[Rich]

Gresham, if all the engines are owned by the clubs, how will new riders break into the sport ?

[mac101]

Gresham, if all the engines are owned by the clubs, how will new riders break into the sport ?

 

they won't need to worry they old GM,s that everybody used to use will be so cheap riders will be giving them away

[Gresham]

Gresham, if all the engines are owned by the clubs, how will new riders break into the sport ?

Good question...I'd suggest as an Amateur you would buy an engine like a basic JAWA comes now. Plus in the interim, there would be plenty of used engines around that riders would want to sell on.

 

Riders that break into the sport wouldn't be riding for teams straight away. They would have to do their time developing in Grasstrack and National League.

 

I'd suggest National League could be run similar to now. But still trying to find a way of keeping costs down.

 

Riders moving up a league after development would be able to sell their equipment on to the next generation of riders.

 

Anyone taking up the sport would have to fork out to start with, but it doesn't have to be silly money.

 

Plus the NL should only be seen by promotors as a development league...not for certain riders to try and make a living in. Purely development.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't have problems, but so many seem to want to find ways of it not working, rather than looking at ways of making it work.

 

Lets face it...when a rider breaks into the sport, if he gets a team birth anywhere...he sells a lot of his equipment on and 'upgrades' again so as to compete. So it wouldn't make any difference.

[Vince]

You do a deal of exclusivity. Paid in instalments. It doesn't need to be JAWA, but they are the only manufacturer I know that produce engines, assembled straight from the factory and have the means to do it. Call it the Premier 'JAWA' league or whatever...with Sky TV, they would love the exposure I'm sure. Make it a long term contract and it's worth their while.

 

 

The riders pay would come down considerably. More would be gone towards buying 'Club Engines'...the rider would not have the cost of buying engines or maintaining them. A good percentage of riders costs go on this. Don't look at GP riders as examples...but your average Club rider. It's a different world for them. Plus more and more riders aren't getting paid by Clubs. So many are owed money. When you speak to mechanics and riders alike, or their sponsors, you hear the real story and not what you are led to believe in the media...it's far worse than many think.

 

 

There will always be if's and but's...unfortunately the people who have been involved in Speedway for many years, the majority of the BSPA, have become blinkered and will always find a reason not to change. The sooner these people are out of speedway, the better...they are ruining Club Speedway, as they are so set in their ways. The younger Generation of Promotors will, I believe, have the courage to change...as they can see outside the box and the problems we have now.

 

It's a bit like the BREXIT vote...people voted for change, but there was no policy in place as to how it will work.

 

You sometimes just have to find ways of making it to work for the better, and overcome the obstacles, instead of continually finding reasons not to change.

 

Of course there would be hiccups...but it can't be any worse than it is now.

 

Club Speedway is struggling...the average rider struggles to survive. Why keep doing the same thing over and over again, when it's clear to see it isn't working?

 

But given the very limited production runs of Speedway engines using only one manufacturer would very likely put the other out of business. There might be the rest of the Speedway world and a very minimal Grasstrack sales but British Speedway must be a very significant part of GM's business. As soon as Jawa have a monopoly do you really believe that their engines won't rise in price?

 

It's all well and good saying you have to find a way to make it work but that is because you believe this to be the answer, those of us who don't are entitled to explore the possible pitfalls and alternatives.

 

Start with the pitfalls:

Clubs are barely surviving so for them to suddenly spend quite considerable sums on engines isn't really very practical at this time. Don't forget it is no good having 14 engines because some will be away for service and you have to allow for breakdowns etc. Presumably the clubs supply ignitions and carbs as well.

 

Who services these engines and won't their prices rise once the other tuners have packed it in?

 

What happens to all the engines riders are currently using? As a cost cutting measure reducing the main assets of the competitors to scrap value overnight isn't going to be very helpful.

 

It doesn't matter how carefully they are assembled there will be a performance differential in the engines.

 

What happens when a rider gets hurt because of an engine failure, is the club liable?

 

There must be other issues that actually need looking at rather than saying "this is a good idea we need to find a way to make it work"

 

In my opinion the single engine idea could only work if you got somebody like Rotax involved who aren't dependant on Speedway.

 

 

Alternatives:

 

For my money the best is the rev limiter with a gradual lowering of the limit year on year. I think there are numerous benefits the big one for me being that it would reduce the ever shorter stroke/light flywheel engines that have come in. I firmly believe they cause more problems for riders than the silencers ever do.

Encouraging the introduction of longer stroke engines with heavier flywheels would also future proof against the inevitable lowering of noise limits in years to come. Also a very easy item to police.

 

Flywheel weight and or minimum stroke limits would, I believe, help a great deal but would be incredibly difficult to police.

 

Then there is the question of just how much of a saving does any of this actually represent to the riders. On here it's become the latest cause that could save the sport but how much are we actually talking about per rider? If you take an average PL rider and say he does approximately 100 heats per year league matches. I'm out of date with prices but lets assume that it's about £500 for a service and double that for a full rebuild. 50 heats between services that is £15 per heat per rider on servicing costs. For sure its quite a lot of money but its a lot less than it takes to run the van to get you to meetings or than you are likely to lose taking time off work. In reality reducing rider costs by £1500 per season isn't going to save the sport.

 

If it's not about costs but providing better entertainment then I have three suggestions.

 

Run a short practice so everybody gets to start with a good set up.

 

Let the losing side have the pick of gates 1 & 3 or 2 & 4 every race.

 

Prepare tracks to give good racing rather than home advantage, although fans have to take the bulk of the blame for that as it has been seen many times how a winning side brings in more spectators than good racing does.

[Gresham]

 

But given the very limited production runs of Speedway engines using only one manufacturer would very likely put the other out of business. There might be the rest of the Speedway world and a very minimal Grasstrack sales but British Speedway must be a very significant part of GM's business. As soon as Jawa have a monopoly do you really believe that their engines won't rise in price?

 

It's all well and good saying you have to find a way to make it work but that is because you believe this to be the answer, those of us who don't are entitled to explore the possible pitfalls and alternatives.

 

Start with the pitfalls:

Clubs are barely surviving so for them to suddenly spend quite considerable sums on engines isn't really very practical at this time. Don't forget it is no good having 14 engines because some will be away for service and you have to allow for breakdowns etc. Presumably the clubs supply ignitions and carbs as well.

 

Who services these engines and won't their prices rise once the other tuners have packed it in?

 

What happens to all the engines riders are currently using? As a cost cutting measure reducing the main assets of the competitors to scrap value overnight isn't going to be very helpful.

 

It doesn't matter how carefully they are assembled there will be a performance differential in the engines.

 

What happens when a rider gets hurt because of an engine failure, is the club liable?

 

There must be other issues that actually need looking at rather than saying "this is a good idea we need to find a way to make it work"

 

In my opinion the single engine idea could only work if you got somebody like Rotax involved who aren't dependant on Speedway.

 

 

Alternatives:

 

For my money the best is the rev limiter with a gradual lowering of the limit year on year. I think there are numerous benefits the big one for me being that it would reduce the ever shorter stroke/light flywheel engines that have come in. I firmly believe they cause more problems for riders than the silencers ever do.

Encouraging the introduction of longer stroke engines with heavier flywheels would also future proof against the inevitable lowering of noise limits in years to come. Also a very easy item to police.

 

Flywheel weight and or minimum stroke limits would, I believe, help a great deal but would be incredibly difficult to police.

 

Then there is the question of just how much of a saving does any of this actually represent to the riders. On here it's become the latest cause that could save the sport but how much are we actually talking about per rider? If you take an average PL rider and say he does approximately 100 heats per year league matches. I'm out of date with prices but lets assume that it's about £500 for a service and double that for a full rebuild. 50 heats between services that is £15 per heat per rider on servicing costs. For sure its quite a lot of money but its a lot less than it takes to run the van to get you to meetings or than you are likely to lose taking time off work. In reality reducing rider costs by £1500 per season isn't going to save the sport.

 

If it's not about costs but providing better entertainment then I have three suggestions.

 

Run a short practice so everybody gets to start with a good set up.

 

Let the losing side have the pick of gates 1 & 3 or 2 & 4 every race.

 

Prepare tracks to give good racing rather than home advantage, although fans have to take the bulk of the blame for that as it has been seen many times how a winning side brings in more spectators than good racing does.

Some good points made fella...I did however say many times in this thread, that it wouldn't be easy and there would be questions to be solved. There would be many...however the whole point of the exercise, is to reduce costs and also stop the daily tinkering on engines by riders and tuners, looking to find that little edge. Time and money wasted in the big picture of things.

 

JAWA and GM are pretty much the only manufacturers used regularly in Speedway...neither would suffer as riders would still want to buy engines for Individual events. They won't have the funds coming from Clubs to finance their individual racing, so would have to find ways of supporting their Individual riding career. Why have Club speedway finance Individual gain?

 

As for Clubs affording engines...I've covered that twice in previous posts above.

 

Employ the tuners available now...how many are there? Spread the costs.

 

Your next point I have covered again regarding selling on current equipment...or most likely it would be kept and used for their Individual events.

 

Differences in engines? Of course...but there is now...no one is on equal ground. You draw lots.

 

Riders would sign a liability document, like in many other sports. I have to when ski racing.

 

As for the rest of your post...yes there are some good ideas there...however I don't think the rev limiter is the answer. How will a rev limiter stop riders tinkering with engines trying to make them go faster? How will it stop them putting in materials that are lighter and not as strong? It won't.

[Sings4Speedway]

Quite correct and the BSPA know it. With more Brits, less need for training foreign riders and therefore less DU"s and guests.

There is plenty going on in speedway to achieve the increase in Brit riders. Increased training sessions, British Youth Championships, Poultec schooling, MDL, NJL, Protected team positions and amended match formats, Training days, second half's, etc. Problem is they are all drip feed, but they WILL eventually start producing riders to replace the foreign riders. They have already started to come through from the initial good work of Neil Vatcher and Phil Morris, but in fairness you are needing probably say 4 years before you get a decent middle order team man.

 

Spot on ad yet the amount of support offered to the few who go the extra mile is limited. Those who want to organise MDL/NJL teams for example have to pay full price every year for SCB registrations, there can only be a limited amount of competitive 2 half heats run before the referees deem it to be a double header meeting and demand double pay. Referees charge for each of the youth rounds they attend.

If the SCB/BSPA want to get behind the future of the sport they should be looking a subsidising some of the many fee's incurred by volunteers, how much hardship would it be for each referee to take one youth round and officiate over it for free or at least just travel expenses.

These are not big sweeping changes but they might just help keep the die hard bands of volunteers who do things for the pure love of the sport going that little bit longer.