El 2nd Strings - Average Reduction?

[SteveLyric2]

OK, lets see how much stick this post/thread gets?!

 

In yet another local paper interview (Bournemouth Echo today - not yet online!) MF reveals he proposed a 20% reduction to the final averages of all EL 2nd strings at the 2014 BSPA AGM.

 

He was obviously outvoted and the alternative of a 2 point increase in the team building limit was voted in instead!!

 

Clearly it would have benefitted Poole - specifically with Josh G - but other clubs as well.

 

Thoughts? Constructive if possible..........!!

Edited May 15, 2015 by Skidder1

[waiheke1]

Yeah it probably should have been 30%, but a number of forum posters suggested this. It should have been done and tbh should apply for any mid season declarations, use of guests etc.

Ford may have had his own interest in doing this, but tbf in this instance he is right

[TheCookster]

Not something I would get particularly excited about, but I think the decision that was reached was neater and more consistent than the proposal made by Matt Ford, which strikes me as quite messy.

 

EL second strings' averages ranged from 7.00 to 4.54, I think, so you would be giving a 20% reduction in some instances to riders who had a higher average than some heat leaders ... very odd!

 

You would potentially also get second strings with lower averages than the EL draft riders at reserve ... also very odd!

 

I think the overall EL structure has got itself into a mess with various bits of tinkering and I think it really needs a proper overhaul. I would like to see it adopt something like the Swedish model, but no doubt the promoters would scream that they can't afford that.

[SCB]

So Joonas Kylamkorpi a second string or a heatleader? What about Bridger? Bech, Lawson, King, Woodward, Fisher, Hansen, Milik, Pawlikci etc? They all rode some meetings as heat leader and some as second string?

 

Something needs to be done but it's not as simple as a straight 20% reduction.

 

You'd be better off weighting each heat in the format. Give me a couple of hours and I'm sure I could come up with a fair weighting and new averages for all riders. It's not difficult for a half competent analyst and a database of result.

[waiheke1]

Thstwould be the best way to go scb, though a simple weighting based on meetings ridden (hl,2nd srimg or rrseve) would be ok.

Thing is people would complain that they didn't understand it.

[SCB]

Thstwould be the best way to go scb, though a simple weighting based on meetings ridden (hl,2nd srimg or rrseve) would be ok.

Thing is people would complain that they didn't understand it.

People don't understand Fractional-reserve banking but the banks seem to be coping just fine despite this

 

TBH, a lot of people fail to grasp averages, the number of people who seem to think heat 15 doesn't count for a riders average is phenomenal. Has that ever been the case?

[TheCookster]

Thing is people would complain that they didn't understand it.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Systems work best when they follow the KISS format (Keep It Simple Stupid) so that it can be clearly understood.

 

One of the other issues with Matt Ford's proposal, aside from those already mentioned, is that it would further complicate the conversions between EL & PL averages for those riders looking to double up / down or move between leagues.

 

 

TBH, a lot of people fail to grasp averages, the number of people who seem to think heat 15 doesn't count for a riders average is phenomenal. Has that ever been the case?

 

Not as I can ever recall - and I have watched speedway for quite a long time!

[waiheke1]

People don't understand Fractional-reserve banking hu the banks seem to be coping just fine despite this

 

TBH, a lot of people fail to grasp averages, the number of people who seem to think heat 15 doesn't count for a riders average is phenomenal. Has that ever been the case?

And no one understands duckworth lewis but its by fat the best system cricket has had.

Yes I'm amazed by the number of strange ideas people have about averages - no idea where the heat15 one came from but it was raised on the ty proctor thread again.

[The White Knight]

Ah me. Such a simple Sport was Speedway. :sad:

[oldace]

People don't understand Fractional-reserve banking but the banks seem to be coping just fine despite this

 

TBH, a lot of people fail to grasp averages, the number of people who seem to think heat 15 doesn't count for a riders average is phenomenal. Has that ever been the case?

 

 

I understand averages well enough and I know back in the 70s every rider had an average of 10 plus, I have read it on here somewhere, even Ashby. Did you even see him ride!!!

[stratton]

I understand averages well enough and I know back in the 70s every rider had an average of 10 plus, I have read it on here somewhere, even Ashby. Did you even see him ride!!!

Yes a ten point average when most clubs had an in/out no 1 and two decent heat leaders did you see Ashby ride Oldass?

[oldace]

Yes a ten point average when most clubs had an in/out no 1 and two decent heat leaders did you see Ashby ride Oldass?

 

 

Of course

[stratton]

Of course

On you tube?

[oldace]

On you tube?

 

 

Where else

[stratton]

Where else

 

Thought so, no being serious where did you see him ride and what was your opinion of him not taking the mick i do respect your opinion.

[oldace]

Thought so, no being serious where did you see him ride and what was your opinion of him not taking the mick i do respect your opinion.

I saw Ashby on many many occasions Sid. At hyde Road when he represented Swindon and Exeter and also lots of blrcs. My overriding memory of Crash was the 1975 british final were he narrowly lost a run off for the last place to Ray Wilson. Wilson had fell first time out but ammassed 11 from his other 4 rides, the same as Ashby. Overall i would probably say he was maybe in the top dozen brits of both 60s snd 70s

Edited May 15, 2015 by Oldace

[waiheke1]

A rider averaging 7 as a second string is performing worse than a heat leader averaging 6 so I see no issue with a system which would reflect that.

[Humphrey Appleby]

And no one understands duckworth lewis but its by fat the best system cricket has had.

At least until the new Duckworth-Lewis-Stern method was introduced...

 

A rider averaging 7 as a second string is performing worse than a heat leader averaging 6 so I see no issue with a system which would reflect that.

Well yes and no. The reserve is actually scoring more points (assuming the same number of rides) so is performing better in terms of the match situation, but the heat leader has harder rides so might be considered to be performing better in relation to the reserve. However, unless you award different points for different heats (e.g. Heat 15 is worth with than Heat 2), then you can't truly compare performances other than on the basis of what points riders actually contribute to the match score.

 

Getting back to averages, I think the problem is that when you start tinkering with the relatively straightforward way in which averages get calculated, then it's actually no longer an average but a rider rating or something similar. That's fine for the purposes of the points limit which does not directly correspond with match scores anyway, but calling it an average just introduces confusion because it doesn't directly reflect a rider's scoring across the matches they've ridden in.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby

[Humphrey Appleby]

Back to Matt Ford's suggestion regarding reducing second string averages by 20% does that not defeat the object of a second string getting up to heat leader standard in someway. And also the higher the second strings average is the more it reduces with the use of percentages.

 

Fraud's suggestion as it stands is pure nonsense, and of course motivated by self-interest. The only way of doing it sensibly, as others have pointed out, is to take the performances when actually riding as second-string, and then assess the particular strengths of the heats they rode in. However, it then doesn't produce an average but a rating.

 

Where does it all end though? I could be argued that No. 11 in cricket scoring 10 runs is a better performance than a No. 1 scoring 10 runs because they usually have less time to do it, and on a more worn pitch. Equally though, they normally don't have to face the new ball, or opening bowlers when they're fresh. 10 runs still count the same towards match score though, whoever scores them, and both players are still credited with 10 runs...

[stratton]

I saw Ashby on many many occasions Sid. At hyde Road when he represented Swindon and Exeter and also lots of blrcs. My overriding memory of Crash was the 1975 british final were he narrowly lost a run off for the last place to Ray Wilson. Wilson had fell first time out but ammassed 11 from his other 4 rides, the same as Ashby. Overall i would probably say he was maybe in the top dozen brits of both 60s snd 70s

I went to the 75 British Final and i would think there were at least 15000 there it was packed.In the run off he should of been hard on Willy but he was just to fair i was a Wilson fan so the defeat was not hard to take.Overall Ashby underachieved similar to Phil Crump the moments that stick out for me was Crash winning the Superama, the BLRC ( with Briggo helping him should of beat Olsen) and the 1975 WTC.When i believe he won the big second half the Victor Lodorum trophy also beating the late great Jansson in one leg of the GH was a huge achievement as Jansson was a certain WC in the making great days.