Stoke's 5-year Plan

[Stoke Potter]

Tattum has stated that there wasn't a 2,3,4,5 or whatever year plan to return to the PL. I think you can forget it happening under the present promotion.

PL racing is by far the best, EL can be ok with 2 strong teams, which rarely happens.

The NL racing I've seen is pretty mediocre, races generally strung out with loads of fallers.

The Rye match on Sunday was actually one of the better ones I've seen and even that had falls in 10 of the heats.

The best racing was produced by Chessell and Perry who were willing to ride wide lines that not even the home riders would take on.

The track could also be improved with better watering equipment. At one point immediately after the track had been watered dust was coming up as soon as the bikes hit the bends, that needs sorting out. It wasn't massive clouds of dust admittedly but if there was some moisture in the depth of the track it would improve the racing lines.

Great to see some investment to spruce up the stadium but get some decent watering kit too.

[Halifaxtiger]

Thing is the best and the worst riders in the EL don't actually meet under the format. I think the EL struggles for entertainment purely because of the tracks it has, the PL generally has the better racetracks in the UK (Scunny, Somerset, P'boro, Sheffield, Plymouth) and these circuits will provide the better racing whichever league they are in. Also beauty is in the eye of the beholder, some people prefer NL action but others would say because the skill factor and speed is less it's not as exciting however much passing you get. I've always struggled to really enjoy NL racing despite going to a handful of meetings every year since it started in the 1990's, whereas others swear by it and some only go to NL meetings.

 

That's the way I have always seen it - its not the riders, its the track.

 

To illustrate the point, Peterborough have dropped down and Leicester have gone up. One's still brilliant and the other is still crap.

 

I was faced with someone telling me that they won't go to NL speedway at Birmingham because its so much slower (10 seconds a race I was told). In actual fact, the NL track record is 4 seconds slower than the all time EL/PL one - I defy anyone to say they would notice a second a lap. |I drew the conclusion that that was just an excuse not to go to NL speedway, however entertaining it might be.

 

In truth, the best meetings I have seen at your place have been NL ones.

 

 

Stoke itself can provide excellent racing, with a variety of lines, which I believe is wasted at NL level where many riders do not yet have the skills to exploit them.

 

In my view, Stoke is one of the best shaped tracks in British Speedway. The problem is its rarely (if ever) prepared to the standard that would produce the quality of speedway that its shape would allow.

[TheCookster]

Tattum has stated that there wasn't a 2,3,4,5 or whatever year plan to return to the PL. I think you can forget it happening under the present promotion.

 

He may well have since stated that there was no such 5-year plan ... but I and several hundred other people know very well what was stated at the time.

 

I also think you are absolutely right that it is highly unlikely to happen under the current promotion. I was playing devil's advocate when I started this thread, in full knowledge of how this promotion has operated over the years and continually treated its paying customers as mugs. Hence my own decision to cease putting any more their way four years ago. I said back then on the Stoke forum that I would return to Stoke when the promotion took the club back into the PL at the end of the 5-year plan. If that happens then I will be true to my word, but I suspect I won't have to be, because the promotion won't have been true to theirs.

[*JJ]

I was faced with someone telling me that they won't go to NL speedway at Birmingham because its so much slower (10 seconds a race I was told). In actual fact, the NL track record is 4 seconds slower than the all time EL/PL one - I defy anyone to say they would notice a second a lap. |I drew the conclusion that that was just an excuse not to go to NL speedway, however entertaining it might be.

 

Times at Birmingham this year have been only 1 or 2 seconds slower than the ELITE league! No-one had ever got near Jason Lyons' PL track record,

[TheCookster]

 

I was faced with someone telling me that they won't go to NL speedway at Birmingham because its so much slower (10 seconds a race I was told). In actual fact, the NL track record is 4 seconds slower than the all time EL/PL one - I defy anyone to say they would notice a second a lap. |I drew the conclusion that that was just an excuse not to go to NL speedway, however entertaining it might be.

 

Times at Birmingham this year have been only 1 or 2 seconds slower than the ELITE league! No-one had ever got near Jason Lyons' PL track record,

 

There is no real issue with the speed the guys in the NL can ride at when they have a clear track, it has more to do with a lack of overall track craft. This was, after all, the reason why the NL was created, so that riders would have the opportunity to develop their skills in a competitive environment before moving on to compete at a higher standard.

[TMW]

There is no real issue with the speed the guys in the NL can ride at when they have a clear track, it has more to do with a lack of overall track craft. This was, after all, the reason why the NL was created, so that riders would have the opportunity to develop their skills in a competitive environment before moving on to compete at a higher standard.

Probably an example where you have seen track craft used in any league, these days, would be handy as I don't see any.

[TheCookster]

Probably an example where you have seen track craft used in any league, these days, would be handy as I don't see any.

If you are genuinely not seeing ANY track craft, then I think you should seriously consider changing the venue and / or level that you are watching speedway at. ;-)

[TMW]

If you are genuinely not seeing ANY track craft, then I think you should seriously consider changing the venue and / or level that you are watching speedway at. ;-)

No.I think it's down to the individual rider not league or track. Most of them likr to gste and hug the white line.

[TheCookster]

No.I think it's down to the individual rider not league or track. Most of them likr to gste and hug the white line.

Precisely. Which is why you need a track that offers different racing lines and riders with the confidence and track craft to exploit those different lines.

[Halifaxtiger]

No.I think it's down to the individual rider not league or track. Most of them likr to gste and hug the white line.

 

I'm with Cookster. You're going to the wrong tracks.

 

Frequent visitor to Leicester, by any chance ?

[Stoke Potter]

If you want to make comparisons between leagues then looking at the times of the heat winners tells you nothing.

What you would need to do is time how long it takes to finish a race, that's not when the first rider crosses the finish line, but when the last rider crosses the line.

If you were able to do that then it would paint a very different picture between the leagues I think.

[TheCookster]

If you want to make comparisons between leagues then looking at the times of the heat winners tells you nothing.

What you would need to do is time how long it takes to finish a race, that's not when the first rider crosses the finish line, but when the last rider crosses the line.

If you were able to do that then it would paint a very different picture between the leagues I think.

Valid point. If it could be monitored (and I'm not sure any of the statisticians ever have), then number of passes could potentially give you an even better idea of how competitive and entertaining one league is compared with another.

[Baldy]

Any chance of fourteen equal standard riders riding against each other?(apart from individual meetings)..........thought not, and until it does, then no speedway for me. Certainly not one for any speedway is better than none brigade. Put the product there and I will watch.

[Sings4Speedway]

Any chance of fourteen equal standard riders riding against each other?(apart from individual meetings)..........thought not, and until it does, then no speedway for me. Certainly not one for any speedway is better than none brigade. Put the product there and I will watch.

 

Pretty rare for even individual meetings to include 14 equally matched riders (GP's included). In fact I struggle to think of any sporting events where teams / individuals are regularly evenly matched....

[Stoke Potter]

Valid point. If it could be monitored (and I'm not sure any of the statisticians ever have), then number of passes could potentially give you an even better idea of how competitive and entertaining one league is compared with another.

If you're counting passes then it would have to be genuine passes, which to my mind would be after the back straight of lap1 and not counting those passing fallers or engine failures. The conclusion would be there are very few genuine passes during an average match.

[TheCookster]

If you're counting passes then it would have to be genuine passes, which to my mind would be after the back straight of lap1 and not counting those passing fallers or engine failures. The conclusion would be there are very few genuine passes during an average match.

Agreed! And I suspect that the NL would have the lowest amount, though I have no firm evidence to support that, just my gut feeling based on the meetings I have seen over the years.

[TMW]

If you're counting passes then it would have to be genuine passes, which to my mind would be after the back straight of lap1 and not counting those passing fallers or engine failures. The conclusion would be there are very few genuine passes during an average match.

So you don't find a 2nd place chasing a 1st place closely for 4 laps and 1st doing well to hold 2nd off only to break down on the last bend thrilling I know I do.

 

There are very few genuine passes these days even at the sainted Kings Lynn (for the benefit if HT)

[Stoke Potter]

So you don't find a 2nd place chasing a 1st place closely for 4 laps and 1st doing well to hold 2nd off only to break down on the last bend thrilling I know I do.

 

There are very few genuine passes these days even at the sainted Kings Lynn (for the benefit if HT)

Yes or course that would be decent, providing it was genuinely close. Very difficult to prove with stats though. The reality is most races are spread over the length of straight at least.

I've only seen King's Lynn on the TV and it doesn't strike me as anything special. Poole & Swindon would be a better EL tracks I'd say.

Cookster, yes I agree with the NL probably having the fewest passes and easily the most fallers and the most races where not all 4 finish.

[TheCookster]

Yes or course that would be decent, providing it was genuinely close. Very difficult to prove with stats though. The reality is most races are spread over the length of straight at least.

I've only seen King's Lynn on the TV and it doesn't strike me as anything special. Poole & Swindon would be a better EL tracks I'd say.

Cookster, yes I agree with the NL probably having the fewest passes and easily the most fallers and the most races where not all 4 finish.

Slight temporary detour off topic, but having visited Kings Lynn many times over the years, I would readily agree that it is a very good race track.

 

There is an element of "lies, damn lies and statistics" here. Whilst it can be fun and sometimes / often* (delete as appropriate) to analyse statistics, they are not the be all and end all. Having spent my working life in sales analysis and marketing I know was well as anyone that you can make the same set of statistics say a number of different things - which sometimes can also appear to be in direct contradiction of each other! TMW is absolutely spot on in post #37 that watching attempted passes can be every bit as enjoyable as watching a successful pass. However, as Stoke Potter also says, this would be virtual impossible to capture within a statistical breakdown and it is a qualitative rather than a quantitative observation.

 

That said, I would also maintain (again without any solid proof to substantiate it, other than my own observations) that there are fewer genuine chases and attempted passes in the NL than there are in other leagues.

Edited April 25, 2015 by TheCookster

[Baldy]

 

Pretty rare for even individual meetings to include 14 equally matched riders (GP's included). In fact I struggle to think of any sporting events where teams / individuals are regularly evenly matched....

Strange reply as I would struggle to find any other sporting event where that wasn't the case. You set two sides up and if someone shows that they are better than those around them then they move up a level and also, someone not cutting the mustard, then they drop down a level...not so in speedway where it seems that it is compulsory to have as much a mishmash of riders of differing standard in a team; someone even pointed that that is ok,as some of the riders don't ride against each other...what a ridiculous situation to have in a team event. I got fed up with speedway on having maybe 3-4 good races a meeting and some riders winning races by as much of a back straight; and that is watching since 1978, so quite a few meetings. Seen many posts about "why the decline in people watching", get real speedway, it's because it just is not good enough. The Heathens get a good crowd, probably one of the best in speedway of 1500-2000 people or thereabouts. That's a super low attendance compared to most other sports. Unfortunately too many races are FTG and the number of teams cutting costs and going NL will increase. Stoke will never go back to Premier level because the support will not return as people have found other things to do. A customer once won and lost is very rarely won back.