Stoke's 5-year Plan

[Alan_Jones]

not so in speedway where it seems that it is compulsory to have as much a mishmash of riders of differing standard in a team; someone even pointed that that is ok,as some of the riders don't ride against each other...what a ridiculous situation to have in a team event.

So how many laps should the 14 rider races be, and how many heats?

[Baldy]

So how many laps should the 14 rider races be, and how many heats?

of course you would need a very wide track to get everyone lined up and the bends would get a bit congested. Or how about 7 of the riders in one team and the other 7 on the visting team; then 2 from each side go to the tapes and race, followed by another set of two and we could workout the finer details if it's a goer. Crazy idea, I realise that we have riders of same standard or as close as can be determined by their current form racing against each other.Think the most sensible way would be to get lads who have never riden in leagues but in practice are very fast (lets give them a average of, just a guess here but 3) racing against people who because they rode well years ago and averaged 9 then but now probably averaging 6, no let us still give them 8 because we like using outdated figures. Can't stop progress or forward thinking........way to go speedway.

[TMW]

of course you would need a very wide track to get everyone lined up and the bends would get a bit congested. Or how about 7 of the riders in one team and the other 7 on the visting team; then 2 from each side go to the tapes and race, followed by another set of two and we could workout the finer details if it's a goer. Crazy idea, I realise that we have riders of same standard or as close as can be determined by their current form racing against each other.Think the most sensible way would be to get lads who have never riden in leagues but in practice are very fast (lets give them a average of, just a guess here but 3) racing against people who because they rode well years ago and averaged 9 then but now probably averaging 6, no let us still give them 8 because we like using outdated figures. Can't stop progress or forward thinking........way to go speedway.

I don't think the sport has ever had 7 equal riders. Has it?

 

You would end up with no riders everyone had to start somewhere whether that be NL stepping up to PL or EL. Like I say unless you are world champ fair and square you will always be learning and developing

 

Pretty rare for even individual meetings to include 14 equally matched riders (GP's included). In fact I struggle to think of any sporting events where teams / individuals are regularly evenly matched....

I think where the problem lies is that all 7 players (riders) have the same job. In football you have defenders and attackers. In Rugby you have a similar scenario. Even Cricket has batsman and bowlers. In Speedway you have 7 riders who line up at the tapes and race against each other for 4 laps. Pretty unique I'd say. So you can't compare it with other sports By it's very nature should be an individual sport

 

The nearest thing you may get is the Ryder Cup all team members hit a ball with a golf club and get it in a hole

Edited April 27, 2015 by TMW

[Baldy]

I don't think the sport has ever had 7 equal riders. Has it?

You would end up with no riders everyone had to start somewhere whether that be NL stepping up to PL or EL. Like I say unless you are world champ fair and square you will always be learning and developing I think where the problem lies is that all 7 players (riders) have the same job. In football you have defenders and attackers. In Rugby you have a similar scenario. Even Cricket has batsman and bowlers. In Speedway you have 7 riders who line up at the tapes and race against each other for 4 laps. Pretty unique I'd say. So you can't compare it with other sports By it's very nature should be an individual sport

The nearest thing you may get is the Ryder Cup all team members hit a ball with a golf club and get it in a hole

Why would you end up with no riders?. The post say's equal standard riders" if you have riders that go around the track in 60 secs or thereabouts, you have a set, just as if you have riders that go around the track in 66 secs. Do not agree with this "unique" tag that some people give speedway. In football, all attack and all defend,(team sport); rugby (my choice of sport) does have very well defined roles but is very much an all attack and all defend where you try to get miss matches of size and mobility of players on the pitch. Seems the people who watch speedway now enjoy it the way that it is and that's great for them; just that it can be so much more if every rider that goes to the tapes has a chance of beating all the others.I even tried to fill a programme in a few years ago with the rider positions before races run and only had 6 incorrect excluding bike breakdowns all meeting. Its an entertainment game for peoples time and by talking to the people that I used to go to speedway with agree that it is not doing that. Perhaps speedway is unique after all.

[TheCookster]

Why would you end up with no riders?. The post say's equal standard riders" if you have riders that go around the track in 60 secs or thereabouts, you have a set, just as if you have riders that go around the track in 66 secs. Do not agree with this "unique" tag that some people give speedway. In football, all attack and all defend,(team sport); rugby (my choice of sport) does have very well defined roles but is very much an all attack and all defend where you try to get miss matches of size and mobility of players on the pitch. Seems the people who watch speedway now enjoy it the way that it is and that's great for them; just that it can be so much more if every rider that goes to the tapes has a chance of beating all the others.I even tried to fill a programme in a few years ago with the rider positions before races run and only had 6 incorrect excluding bike breakdowns all meeting. Its an entertainment game for peoples time and by talking to the people that I used to go to speedway with agree that it is not doing that. Perhaps speedway is unique after all.

I don't really see what relevance this has to "Stoke's 5-Year Plan" and should probably be part of a separate thread in its own right. That aside the "logic" behind your argument is seriously flawed.

 

There are already plenty of speedway riders who ride around a track in similar times, such as your approx. 60 seconds for instance, when they have no competition. Firstly, riding around a track that is empty and riding around around a track with other riders is not the same proposition. Secondly, if one rider can ride a race in 60 seconds and another in 60.2 seconds, then that would suggest they are of a very similar standard - but that would still equate to about a 5 metre difference in distance at the end of the race, which can seem huge.

 

It is nonsense to try to compare speedway as a team sport to things like association football or rugby football as team sports. In those type of sports all of the members of the team are on the pitch at the same time, in speedway they are not. In that respect speedway is more akin to many equestrian team sports, where individual scores are added together to give an overall team score, or in certain aspects sports such as tennis pairs, where two players are on the field of play at any given time against two opposition players. Certainly in the earlier days of speedway this latter comparison is how it was envisaged. Teams were made up of "heat leaders", "second strings" and "reserves" and the heat structure was designed in such as way as to allow and encourage the senior riders to team ride with the more junior riders. Granted, team riding is something which has very much diminished over the years, but then your preferred sport of rugby has also changed significantly over the years too. (Being both a qualified rugby coach and a qualified referee, it is a sport I am intimately familiar with!).

 

Speedway is not perfect, no sport is. I personally find football as dull as dishwater most of the time these days as the end result is generally determined by who has most money. Of course speedway has dull races, which are from the gate and processional, but at least there is another race a few minutes later ... unlike another motorsport, F1 racing, which tends to be from the start line and processional for the next 2 hours! Personally, I believe there are more issues with the overall organisational structure and the promotion of the sport rather than its basic format. I don't expect everyone to like it, just as I may fail to see the attraction of somebody else's favourite pastime. And it does puzzle me slightly why someone who seems to find the sport so objectionable would spend their time on a forum dedicated to speedway! ... For example, as someone who has never really understood the appeal of polo as a sport, you wouldn't find me frequenting a polo forum and trying to persuade them that they have got it all wrong! ;-)

[Greg]

I hate to say it but i dont think Stoke will be in the premier ever again.

[Baldy]

I don't really see what relevance this has to "Stoke's 5-Year Plan" and should probably be part of a separate thread in its own right. That aside the "logic" behind your argument is seriously flawed.

 

There are already plenty of speedway riders who ride around a track in similar times, such as your approx. 60 seconds for instance, when they have no competition. Firstly, riding around a track that is empty and riding around around a track with other riders is not the same proposition. Secondly, if one rider can ride a race in 60 seconds and another in 60.2 seconds, then that would suggest they are of a very similar standard - but that would still equate to about a 5 metre difference in distance at the end of the race, which can seem huge.

 

It is nonsense to try to compare speedway as a team sport to things like association football or rugby football as team sports. In those type of sports all of the members of the team are on the pitch at the same time, in speedway they are not. In that respect speedway is more akin to many equestrian team sports, where individual scores are added together to give an overall team score, or in certain aspects sports such as tennis pairs, where two players are on the field of play at any given time against two opposition players. Certainly in the earlier days of speedway this latter comparison is how it was envisaged. Teams were made up of "heat leaders", "second strings" and "reserves" and the heat structure was designed in such as way as to allow and encourage the senior riders to team ride with the more junior riders. Granted, team riding is something which has very much diminished over the years, but then your preferred sport of rugby has also changed significantly over the years too. (Being both a qualified rugby coach and a qualified referee, it is a sport I am intimately familiar with!).

 

Speedway is not perfect, no sport is. I personally find football as dull as dishwater most of the time these days as the end result is generally determined by who has most money. Of course speedway has dull races, which are from the gate and processional, but at least there is another race a few minutes later ... unlike another motorsport, F1 racing, which tends to be from the start line and processional for the next 2 hours! Personally, I believe there are more issues with the overall organisational structure and the promotion of the sport rather than its basic format. I don't expect everyone to like it, just as I may fail to see the attraction of somebody else's favourite pastime. And it does puzzle me slightly why someone who seems to find the sport so objectionable would spend their time on a forum dedicated to speedway! ... For example, as someone who has never really understood the appeal of polo as a sport, you wouldn't find me frequenting a polo forum and trying to persuade them that they have got it all wrong! ;-)

I agree with you on the football and F1....then we depart. The reason I spend time on the speedway site is the same as the people banging on my door for a vote. I want to change speedway into something I want to watch. I too have no idea or wish to understand polo but having watched speedway from 1978 to 2012 ish, I think....no know I have a very good understanding of speedway but you seem to regard me as someone who has never understood speedway.... I am a qualified supporter in a sport I am familiar with. These are my views on getting the speedway back into my life and maybe getting enough others back to Stoke to conclude the five year plan you spoke about. My views were in support of why it will not work as most people I know.....no all the people I know who used to go to speedway find it as you would put it "as dull dishwater" because nothing has changed. You seem happy with the set-up of racing. You carry on and hope there is enough of similar minds to sustain it. Just because you do not agree with me I do not accuse you of not understand speedway and really hope that you do not make the same mistake with other posters who disagree with you. Anyway....which way to that polo forum

[TheCookster]

I hate to say it but i dont think Stoke will be in the premier ever again.

Sadly, Greg, I suspect you are right - and I have suspected as much since the day the promotion announced their plan to take the team into the NL only. I had been an ardent supporter of Stoke Speedway - I rarely missed a home fixture and was one of the most (if not the most) travelled supporters of them when they were riding elsewhere - so over the years I had already experienced a number of disappointments relating to the way Stoke Speedway operated and treated its paying public. I had certainly experienced and learned enough to take the talk of a "5-year plan" and a return to the PL with a pinch of salt. That said, I hope that my suspicions are wrong and that Stoke line up in the PL in 2016 ... but I won't be holding my breath - it isn't likely to be good for my health!

[Sings4Speedway]

Blimey you really are an ardent supporter if you turned up to Loomer Road every week. Your away days were probably a treat

[Baldy]

 

I don't really see what relevance this has to "Stoke's 5-Year Plan" and should probably be part of a separate thread in its own right. That aside the "logic" behind your argument is seriously flawed.

 

There are already plenty of speedway riders who ride around a track in similar times, such as your approx. 60 seconds for instance, when they have no competition. Firstly, riding around a track that is empty and riding around around a track with other riders is not the same proposition. Secondly, if one rider can ride a race in 60 seconds and another in 60.2 seconds, then that would suggest they are of a very similar standard - but that would still equate to about a 5 metre difference in distance at the end of the race, which can seem huge.

 

It is nonsense to try to compare speedway as a team sport to things like association football or rugby football as team sports. In those type of sports all of the members of the team are on the pitch at the same time, in speedway they are not. In that respect speedway is more akin to many equestrian team sports, where individual scores are added together to give an overall team score, or in certain aspects sports such as tennis pairs, where two players are on the field of play at any given time against two opposition players. Certainly in the earlier days of speedway this latter comparison is how it was envisaged. Teams were made up of "heat leaders", "second strings" and "reserves" and the heat structure was designed in such as way as to allow and encourage the senior riders to team ride with the more junior riders. Granted, team riding is something which has very much diminished over the years, but then your preferred sport of rugby has also changed significantly over the years too. (Being both a qualified rugby coach and a qualified referee, it is a sport I am intimately familiar with!).

 

Speedway is not perfect, no sport is. I personally find football as dull as dishwater most of the time these days as the end result is generally determined by who has most money. Of course speedway has dull races, which are from the gate and processional, but at least there is another race a few minutes later ... unlike another motorsport, F1 racing, which tends to be from the start line and processional for the next 2 hours! Personally, I believe there are more issues with the overall organisational structure and the promotion of the sport rather than its basic format. I don't expect everyone to like it, just as I may fail to see the attraction of somebody else's favourite pastime. And it does puzzle me slightly why someone who seems to find the sport so objectionable would spend their time on a forum dedicated to speedway! ... For example, as someone who has never really understood the appeal of polo as a sport, you wouldn't find me frequenting a polo forum and trying to persuade them that they have got it all wrong! ;-)

 

I agree with you on the football and F1....then we depart. The reason I spend time on the speedway site is the same as the people banging on my door for a vote; wanting to change what we have in government. I want to change speedway into something I want to watch. I too have no idea or wish to understand polo but having watched speedway from 1978 to 2012 ish, I think....no know I have a very good understanding of speedway but you seem to regard me as someone who has never understood speedway I know all about "heat leaders" and "reserves" al all those in between. I must admit that watching a heat leader shepherding a reserve around is very entertaining Wonder why they are called "heat leaders" , perhaps because they win the heats??... would be great if each team had 7 "possible heat leaders" per team.... I am a qualified supporter in a sport I am familiar with. These are my views on getting the speedway back into my life and maybe getting enough others back to Stoke to conclude the five year plan you spoke about. My views were in support of why it will not work as most people I know.....no all the people I know who used to go to speedway find it as you would put it "as dull dishwater" because nothing has changed. You seem happy with the set-up of racing. You carry on and hope there is enough of similar minds to sustain it. Just because you do not agree with me I do not accuse you of not understand speedway and really hope that you do not make the same mistake with other posters who disagree with you. Anyway....which way to that polo forum

[TheCookster]

Blimey you really are an ardent supporter if you turned up to Loomer Road every week. Your away days were probably a treat

A glutton for punishment! :-)

[TMW]

I don't really see what relevance this has to "Stoke's 5-Year Plan" and should probably be part of a separate thread in its own right. That aside the "logic" behind your argument is seriously flawed.

 

There are already plenty of speedway riders who ride around a track in similar times, such as your approx. 60 seconds for instance, when they have no competition. Firstly, riding around a track that is empty and riding around around a track with other riders is not the same proposition. Secondly, if one rider can ride a race in 60 seconds and another in 60.2 seconds, then that would suggest they are of a very similar standard - but that would still equate to about a 5 metre difference in distance at the end of the race, which can seem huge.

 

It is nonsense to try to compare speedway as a team sport to things like association football or rugby football as team sports. In those type of sports all of the members of the team are on the pitch at the same time, in speedway they are not. In that respect speedway is more akin to many equestrian team sports, where individual scores are added together to give an overall team score, or in certain aspects sports such as tennis pairs, where two players are on the field of play at any given time against two opposition players. Certainly in the earlier days of speedway this latter comparison is how it was envisaged. Teams were made up of "heat leaders", "second strings" and "reserves" and the heat structure was designed in such as way as to allow and encourage the senior riders to team ride with the more junior riders. Granted, team riding is something which has very much diminished over the years, but then your preferred sport of rugby has also changed significantly over the years too. (Being both a qualified rugby coach and a qualified referee, it is a sport I am intimately familiar with!).

 

Speedway is not perfect, no sport is. I personally find football as dull as dishwater most of the time these days as the end result is generally determined by who has most money. Of course speedway has dull races, which are from the gate and processional, but at least there is another race a few minutes later ... unlike another motorsport, F1 racing, which tends to be from the start line and processional for the next 2 hours! Personally, I believe there are more issues with the overall organisational structure and the promotion of the sport rather than its basic format. I don't expect everyone to like it, just as I may fail to see the attraction of somebody else's favourite pastime. And it does puzzle me slightly why someone who seems to find the sport so objectionable would spend their time on a forum dedicated to speedway! ... For example, as someone who has never really understood the appeal of polo as a sport, you wouldn't find me frequenting a polo forum and trying to persuade them that they have got it all wrong! ;-)

 

I agree with you on the football and F1....then we depart. The reason I spend time on the speedway site is the same as the people banging on my door for a vote. I want to change speedway into something I want to watch. I too have no idea or wish to understand polo but having watched speedway from 1978 to 2012 ish, I think....no know I have a very good understanding of speedway but you seem to regard me as someone who has never understood speedway.... I am a qualified supporter in a sport I am familiar with. These are my views on getting the speedway back into my life and maybe getting enough others back to Stoke to conclude the five year plan you spoke about. My views were in support of why it will not work as most people I know.....no all the people I know who used to go to speedway find it as you would put it "as dull dishwater" because nothing has changed. You seem happy with the set-up of racing. You carry on and hope there is enough of similar minds to sustain it. Just because you do not agree with me I do not accuse you of not understand speedway and really hope that you do not make the same mistake with other posters who disagree with you. Anyway....which way to that polo forum

I'll sort your post for you SteepleJack !

Edited April 28, 2015 by TMW

[Baldy]

Thanks for sorting. Tablet trouble.....not enough of them I think

[TheCookster]

Steeplejack, you seem to be coming from a completely different starting point to me.

 

Your contention seems to be that league speedway is fundamentally broken and that it needs a complete overhaul and reinvention as something in a dramatically different format.

 

By contrast, my assertion is that British league speedway may well be broken and that certain clubs (such as Stoke) are more broken than others. (This is the reason why I believe that your point warrants a separate thread rather than being part of this one.)

 

However, I will quickly address your point and why I believe that your contention about league speedway being being fundamentally broken is wrong:

If league speedway in its current basic format were fundamentally broken, then it wouldn't work anywhere ... but that isn't the case.

League speedway in Sweden follows the same basic format - and is successful.

League speedway in Poland follows the same basic format - and is successful.

Therefore, the issues in British league speedway must lie elsewhere, hence my belief that there are more issues with the overall organisational structure and the promotion of the sport in this country rather than league speedway's basic format.

[teddy2706]

Whilst I always enjoyed Cookster's posts on the Stoke site and I am pleased to read them again, might I add something that many Stoke "Exiles" like to forget?

The crowd was dwindling at Stoke in the last two PL years before Tattum ever took the team into the NL (indeed this is why he took the team down).

 

There were a few factors for this, reasons I have heard include a lack of silverware success, or too many unknown foreigners being drafted into the team at short notice and most importantly a dissatisfaction with the promotion.

In my opinion, one of the vital factors was almost always overlooked by supporters; a deterioration in track condition and preparation.

When Loomer road is expertly prepared, without holes and plenty of dirt, in my opinion it is possibly one of the most exciting venues in Britain.

 

However, a dirty, gloomy stadium, with poor toilet facilities and indifferent catering will do nothing to attract and keep support either.

Cookster knows full well, as do all of us other exiles, that whether NL, PL, or even EL speedway was at Loomer rd, most of us would not attend.

Why? Because we are pig sick of being taken for mugs by Mr and Mrs. Tattum.

[Baldy]

Whilst I always enjoyed Cookster's posts on the Stoke site and I am pleased to read them again, might I add something that many Stoke "Exiles" like to forget?

The crowd was dwindling at Stoke in the last two PL years before Tattum ever took the team into the NL (indeed this is why he took the team down).

 

There were a few factors for this, reasons I have heard include a lack of silverware success, or too many unknown foreigners being drafted into the team at short notice and most importantly a dissatisfaction with the promotion.

In my opinion, one of the vital factors was almost always overlooked by supporters; a deterioration in track condition and preparation.

When Loomer road is expertly prepared, without holes and plenty of dirt, in my opinion it is possibly one of the most exciting venues in Britain.

 

However, a dirty, gloomy stadium, with poor toilet facilities and indifferent catering will do nothing to attract and keep support either.

Cookster knows full well, as do all of us other exiles, that whether NL, PL, or even EL speedway was at Loomer rd, most of us would not attend.

Why? Because we are pig sick of being taken for mugs by Mr and Mrs. Tattum.

An awful lot of sense spoken there. Is there still that hole coming into bend three?. One of the top tracks abroad was designed on the shape of Stoke I think and when correctly prepared it is a great race track. I remember Tom Owen and Tony Lomas riding it like they were in an armchair.

[TheCookster]

Whilst I always enjoyed Cookster's posts on the Stoke site and I am pleased to read them again, might I add something that many Stoke "Exiles" like to forget?

The crowd was dwindling at Stoke in the last two PL years before Tattum ever took the team into the NL (indeed this is why he took the team down).

 

There were a few factors for this, reasons I have heard include a lack of silverware success, or too many unknown foreigners being drafted into the team at short notice and most importantly a dissatisfaction with the promotion.

In my opinion, one of the vital factors was almost always overlooked by supporters; a deterioration in track condition and preparation.

When Loomer road is expertly prepared, without holes and plenty of dirt, in my opinion it is possibly one of the most exciting venues in Britain.

 

However, a dirty, gloomy stadium, with poor toilet facilities and indifferent catering will do nothing to attract and keep support either.

Cookster knows full well, as do all of us other exiles, that whether NL, PL, or even EL speedway was at Loomer rd, most of us would not attend.

Why? Because we are pig sick of being taken for mugs by Mr and Mrs. Tattum.

 

Welcome to thread Oldsparky - and thanks for getting straight to the crux of the matter with your pertinent comments!

 

You are, of course, spot on and crowd numbers at Loomer Road had been dwindling in the couple of PL seasons prior to the move into the National League (though that move did prompt a significantly larger immediate exodus). Though I would question whether this was really the reason that the team taken down into the NL ... I know it is the reason that Dave Tattum gave for taking the team into the NL (as part of the "5-year plan"), but I never believed it personally.

 

My own view is that he took the easy option to address the falling profitability of his business. His decision to move into NL meant that he could significantly cut his costs with regard to riders' pay and by not significantly reducing the cost to attend he could then benefit financially. The better - and in my opinion - correct option would have been to address the many promotional shortcomings (a number of which you mentioned in your post) and improve the product on offer to the paying public, but that would obviously have taken more effort.

 

I can't take issue with any of the criticisms of the promotion that you list in your post, because you are quite simply right! And I know only too well that you could have added many more examples to the list! I also know that even if Dave Tattum were to take the team back into the PL next season (though I don't expect he will) then there will be a good number of exiles who would still not return. Personally, I would, because I promised that on the Stoke forum at the time and I would be true to my word. However, if Stoke are to ever return to the Premier League and if increased numbers of spectators are to be attracted through the gates, then I suspect it will take a change of promoter to achieve it.

[horneymikh]

An awful lot of sense spoken there. Is there still that hole coming into bend three?. One of the top tracks abroad was designed on the shape of Stoke I think and when correctly prepared it is a great race track. I remember Tom Owen and Tony Lomas riding it like they were in an armchair.

 

Vojens i believe mate

[Falcon Hammer]

Track was fantastic v Rye House, much improved on last season. Some great racing

[Stoke Potter]

Track was fantastic v Rye House, much improved on last season. Some great racing

Apart from the fact that it was too dry and slick!

 

I don't know if it was true that Ole Olsen modelled Vojens on Loomer Rd. but if he did I would imagine that the Stoke track has changed, probably twice, since then.