The White Knight Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Nonsense. As long as I can remember there have been injuries early season, mid season and late season, often pretty bad ones Granted - but crucially - not as many....................................... Why do you keep 'Liking' your own Posts by the way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Granted - but crucially - not as many....................................... Why do you keep 'Liking' your own Posts by the way? Because they are very good and worthy of being liked, well that and not knowing what I am doing with this phone!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Because they are very good and worthy of being liked, well that and not knowing what I am doing with this phone!!!! Haha!! :rofl: Good Post!! - That sounds like me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Statistics are usually made up of lies more lies and dammned lies, the Conservative party use them all the time. Statistics NEVER lie. Lies are what happen when individuals attempt to find their own reasoning for the said statistics... Steve 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Statistics NEVER lie. Lies are what happen when individuals attempt to find their own reasoning for the said statistics... Steve Like the reasoning, "I saw one meeting on tele yesterday, 2 riders got injured. Thus it stands to reason 2 riders must get injured in every meeting" Bwahahahahhahaa still loving this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 March is ended. It is my feeling that there have been no more injuries this year in the 'March, start of season period' than any other year in my Speedway watching life.That is 40 years. Despite what other people are saying. And I know other people think differently. But can anyone produce ANY statistics to PROVE me wrong? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 March is ended. It is my feeling that there have been no more injuries this year in the 'March, start of season period' than any other year in my Speedway watching life. That is 40 years. Despite what other people are saying. And I know other people think differently. But can anyone produce ANY statistics to PROVE me wrong? Maybe teams are more vulnerable to injury these days, due to the low points limit? And a lack of available riders to fill the void? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shale Searcher Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 I think it's down to a multitude of reasons... The introduction of the modern, faster Laydown, followed by the introduction of the pyjama racesuits, the addition of the air fences (which give riders a false sense of security) because injuries are also caused by riders impacting with the track and by being hit by the bikes themselves, and then, the noise suppressing silencers which kill the bikes ability to handle dirt, add all these factors together, and add in the fact that some riders come back to racing before being fully race fit and are prone to getting re-injured by "nothing" falls.. AND here's a factor nobody has considered, the total number of riders riding Speedway now, compared to in the 1960s and 1970s, for example, if there were 25 injuries per 200,riders then, now there are 25 injuries per 130 riders now, if you see what I mean, perhaps we are forgetting that particular issue... Discuss.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Maybe teams are more vulnerable to injury these days, due to the low points limit? And a lack of available riders to fill the void? So that would be a 'No' to having any stats, then? I think it's down to a multitude of reasons... The introduction of the modern, faster Laydown, followed by the introduction of the pyjama racesuits, the addition of the air fences (which give riders a false sense of security) because injuries are also caused by riders impacting with the track and by being hit by the bikes themselves, and then, the noise suppressing silencers which kill the bikes ability to handle dirt, add all these factors together, and add in the fact that some riders come back to racing before being fully race fit and are prone to getting re-injured by "nothing" falls.. AND here's a factor nobody has considered, the total number of riders riding Speedway now, compared to in the 1960s and 1970s, for example, if there were 25 injuries per 200,riders then, now there are 25 injuries per 130 riders now, if you see what I mean, perhaps we are forgetting that particular issue... Discuss.... So you put forward hypothetical stats. To discuss. How about some real ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 So that would be a 'No' to having any stats, then? No, not a 'no' to stats, but for those who say 'the injury count hasn't changed', my suggestion could be the reason why it appears/seems injuries are more of an issue? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 No, not a 'no' to stats, but for those who say 'the injury count hasn't changed', my suggestion could be the reason why it appears/seems injuries are more of an issue? You don't understand, fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) I think it's down to a multitude of reasons... I put it down to one reason and 1 alone. People making things up. Pet theories that hold no water when challenged with numbers. So far nobody has been able to prove that have more injuries. When I said I had initial numbers that proved we didn't but would fine tune them to remove doubling up rider missing meetings I was told to stick my stats (basically I was told they don't fit my theory so I don't want them). Some people don't seem to grasp how to use numbers. They do what an old boss of mind used to do. He come to us and say, "I think that more green car crash, prove this" when what he should have done is come to us and asked "what colour car crashes most" and we could have told him. Thats what we have on this thread, my old boss, "we have loads of injuries, prove it" rather than, "How many injuries do we have now compared to in the past" In 1994 up to this point in the season (April 1st) 7 riders had withdrawn from a meeting due to injury. For far in 20015 10 riders have withdrawn from meetings in the UK due to injury. 4 of them at Kings Lynn in 2 meeting and one of them was a re-occurrence of an injury from one of them other meetings) So thats 2 more actual rider injured extra compared to 1994. It's hardly indicative of things getting really bad as some would have you believe. Edited April 1, 2015 by SCB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shale Searcher Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 So that would be a 'No' to having any stats, then? So you put forward hypothetical stats. To discuss. How about some real ones? I dont have any stats, I was merely making a point about something we may have overlooked..... But like prisoner numbers no longer rising, that's only because we have no more prison space!! The figures are warped, as a percentage of the population they are now less, because we now have 10 million more people, but same prison places as when we had 10 million less people! If riders injured were worked out as a percentage of total riders, I reckon it would come out as more riders injured today than 30 years ago..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 If riders injured were worked out as a percentage of total riders, I reckon it would come out as more riders injured today than 30 years ago..... And would that prove anything? The problem is that as often happens on the BSF, the thread has now devolved into nothing more than a battle of "OPINIONS". Without statistics to substantiate a particular viewpoint, the viewpoint is rendered useless. Even with statistics, it is likely to prove inconclusive. Let's take this specific example (based on a hypothetical statistic) : There have been five more injuries in March 2015 than there were in March 1985. Does that mean that speedway is now more dangerous? Does that mean that track preparation is not what it was? Does that mean that riders today are less skilled? Does that mean that riders today are less fit? Does that mean riders today have just been unlucky? Maybe there are more injuries this year - which would prove nothing. Maybe there are fewer injuries this year - which would prove nothing. Still, it would be nice if somebody could compile a complete list of every injury on British tracks from every March, and taking into account the exact number of riders, exact number of meetings, and exact number of races, and publish the complete statistics - in order to prove NOTHING! Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 I put it down to one reason and 1 alone. People making things up. Pet theories that hold no water when challenged with numbers. So far nobody has been able to prove that have more injuries. When I said I had initial numbers that proved we didn't but would fine tune them to remove doubling up rider missing meetings I was told to stick my stats (basically I was told they don't fit my theory so I don't want them). Some people don't seem to grasp how to use numbers. They do what an old boss of mind used to do. He come to us and say, "I think that more green car crash, prove this" when what he should have done is come to us and asked "what colour car crashes most" and we could have told him. Thats what we have on this thread, my old boss, "we have loads of injuries, prove it" rather than, "How many injuries do we have now compared to in the past" In 1994 up to this point in the season (April 1st) 7 riders had withdrawn from a meeting due to injury. For far in 20015 10 riders have withdrawn from meetings in the UK due to injury. 4 of them at Kings Lynn in 2 meeting and one of them was a re-occurrence of an injury from one of them other meetings) So thats 2 more actual rider injured extra compared to 1994. It's hardly indicative of things getting really bad as some would have you believe. Oh Shawn!!!! For one who holds such great faith in statistics this is a prime example of their misuse, commiting two cardinal sins: a) too small a sample to draw any meaningful conclusions cherry picking a single example - what if you'd chosen 1993 or 1995? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 My point is that there seems to be more injuries than there ever used to be in the 'old days' so early in the Season. Hence my claim that current day Bikes and Tracks are not ideally suited to each other. There were injuries back in the Seventies - yes - but not so many and not so early. I don't think so. There's always been a rash of injuries early season. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 And would that prove anything? Still, it would be nice if somebody could compile a complete list of every injury on British tracks from every March, and taking into account the exact number of riders, exact number of meetings, and exact number of races, and publish the complete statistics - in order to prove NOTHING! Steve No - if statistically significant it would prove that there are/aren't more injuries. What it wouldn't do is explain why. Constructing a statistical model that tests a 'why' would I think be too difficult (too much random noise, too many subjective judgements), which I think is the jist of the rest of your post with which I do agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shale Searcher Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Also, in the old days, let's say 60's and 70's riders did fewer meetings, they certainly didn't ride virtually every night like they do now. The more exposed a rider is to racing, the more likleyhood he's going to get injured....? Also, in the old days, let's say 60's and 70's riders did fewer meetings, they certainly didn't ride virtually every night like they do now. The more exposed a rider is to racing, the more likleyhood he's going to get injured....? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Also, in the old days, let's say 60's and 70's riders did fewer meetings, they certainly didn't ride virtually every night like they do now. The more exposed a rider is to racing, the more likleyhood he's going to get injured....? Also, in the old days, let's say 60's and 70's riders did fewer meetings, they certainly didn't ride virtually every night like they do now. The more exposed a rider is to racing, the more likleyhood he's going to get injured....? 2 very good points! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 I think it's down to a multitude of reasons... The introduction of the modern, faster Laydown, followed by the introduction of the pyjama racesuits, the addition of the air fences (which give riders a false sense of security) because injuries are also caused by riders impacting with the track and by being hit by the bikes themselves, and then, the noise suppressing silencers which kill the bikes ability to handle dirt, add all these factors together, and add in the fact that some riders come back to racing before being fully race fit and are prone to getting re-injured by "nothing" falls.. AND here's a factor nobody has considered, the total number of riders riding Speedway now, compared to in the 1960s and 1970s, for example, if there were 25 injuries per 200,riders then, now there are 25 injuries per 130 riders now, if you see what I mean, perhaps we are forgetting that particular issue... Discuss.... Also, in the old days, let's say 60's and 70's riders did fewer meetings, they certainly didn't ride virtually every night like they do now. The more exposed a rider is to racing, the more likleyhood he's going to get injured....? Also, in the old days, let's say 60's and 70's riders did fewer meetings, they certainly didn't ride virtually every night like they do now. The more exposed a rider is to racing, the more likleyhood he's going to get injured....? Two very well reasoned Posts. I concur with both of them SS. :approve: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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