Fromafar Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 In terms of mph there is not a lot of difference between 2015 and 1975 so what do you base your conviction that bikes are the problem on. I am not saying you are right or wrong but wonder what you think is the probkemI think it is because they modified the tracks to suit the bikes instead of leaving the dirt on and letting the riders set up bikes to suit tracks with dirt.They would soon have had to detune them ,the racing would still have been as good (only my opinion) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert72 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Didn't the injuries rise when the switch from uprights to lay downs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 A blind man can see that the number of injuries has increased in the last 4 seasons.Just look at the amount of guests used by all clubs in all leagues in the track reviews in the Star,how many riders now go through a season without a spell on the sidelines.Just look at the top level of the GP,Hancock,Iversen,Woffinden,Holder,Ward,Kasprazak, and Sayfitudinov,all suffering serious injuries in the past few years,and these guys are the best. I think you're wrong and tomorrow I'll run off the stats that show how many guests have been use in the PL and EL for the last 4 seasons. Taking away any missing for doubling up reasons. I'm willing to be the difference is negligible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shale Searcher Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) I think there are more injuries today, but not as many more as we think. Social media bring all to our attention, not just the ones close to us in our team and league. I also think airfences are part of the cause... They have given the riders the excuse to over ride, a sort of licence to try moves they wouldn't try with a wooden or metal safety fence, and the bikes are definatley harder to ride, especially in deep dirt out near the fence, then suddenly, they are back on the gripless slick. The modern race suits have not helped with burns and abrasive injuries and to cap it all off, the bikes are I would say a second or two faster per lap, don't sound a lot, but add 4-8 seconds onto a race time and it's significant... Edited March 31, 2015 by Shale Searcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelman Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yes and engine development has kept marching on......to get more power the revs have been increased, flywheels lightened.and strokes shortened.....most riders are now using motors that a few years ago would have been only considered a Long Track motor...... IMO.... this has complicated things... particulary teams that dont have the resources to match motors to tracks and conditions..... In the days of two valve Jawas a different cam was used to get to the first corner in the Spring...... as summer arrived cam change for maxium straight speed......was quite good racing too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyK86 Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 With Air Fence now in place at every track riders do try more risky moves which i am sure many appreciate but with that risk comes reward but also bad injuries and more of them.I don't think the bikes are the problem, yes they are quick but more often than not it is the rider trying way to hard and get all out of shape and often it is the same riders getting injured over and over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Agreed, if we get rid of the bikes we will eliminate 99% of crashes. I am convinced of that. Typical Post from you Blazeaway. Contributes nothing to what was developing in to a very interesting discussion. You know what I meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 In the last 40 years mph has only increased slightly. On a bigger track like say Sheffield 40 years ago they would hit the bends at 60 - 65 mph, now its probably 65 - 70 mph. Fall off a motorbike at either 60 or 65 and it hurts pretty much the same. We see very few (thankfully) fatalities nowadays largely due to helmet technology and no lighting standards in close proximity, coupled with air fences. We do possibly see more damage to limbs, largely because modern race suits and armour don't afford the same protection as an old set of leathers. A modern bike though revs massively more than its 1970s counterpart and thanks to short stroke motors with super lightweight flywheels and modern silencers has a very limited (zero) power band, it will only really work at max revs, throttle control is a thing of the past, the bike needs to on the stop. On a slick super smooth track these machines are so much easier (and safer) to ride but they have little torque so when the rear wheel hits resistance in the form of grip rather than ride through it it will grab the wheel and send the bike lifting and pointing all wrong. A long stroke motor with a normal flywheel can get through these conditions but it takes longer to get to peak revs 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 I think you're wrong and tomorrow I'll run off the stats that show how many guests have been use in the PL and EL for the last 4 seasons. Taking away any missing for doubling up reasons. I'm willing to be the difference is negligible.I agree entirely with you SCB (and I wrote the article in the Star analysing guests). One of the things that struck me was that Lewis Blackbird was the only rider to miss more than one third of his EL fixtures due to injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Typical Post from you Blazeaway. Contributes nothing to what was developing in to a very interesting discussion. You know what I meant. Oh I don't know. It gave me a smile but obviously I've got a warped sense of humour. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Oh I don't know. It gave me a smile but obviously I've got a warped sense of humour. Me too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 I agree entirely with you SCB (and I wrote the article in the Star analysing guests). One of the things that struck me was that Lewis Blackbird was the only rider to miss more than one third of his EL fixtures due to injury. I've already cheated as I have run the stats of purely for number of guests and it supports my theory the difference is negligible but the code to remove any double uppers missing due to riding for their other team will take a little longer and I was too lazy to do it last night. It does show at a quick glance though the figure show suggest there are no more injuries now than last year, the year before or even 2010. Yet amazingly even a blind man can see there are more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafski Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 In the last 40 years mph has only increased slightly. On a bigger track like say Sheffield 40 years ago they would hit the bends at 60 - 65 mph, now its probably 65 - 70 mph. Fall off a motorbike at either 60 or 65 and it hurts pretty much the same. We see very few (thankfully) fatalities nowadays largely due to helmet technology and no lighting standards in close proximity, coupled with air fences. We do possibly see more damage to limbs, largely because modern race suits and armour don't afford the same protection as an old set of leathers. A modern bike though revs massively more than its 1970s counterpart and thanks to short stroke motors with super lightweight flywheels and modern silencers has a very limited (zero) power band, it will only really work at max revs, throttle control is a thing of the past, the bike needs to on the stop. On a slick super smooth track these machines are so much easier (and safer) to ride but they have little torque so when the rear wheel hits resistance in the form of grip rather than ride through it it will grab the wheel and send the bike lifting and pointing all wrong. A long stroke motor with a normal flywheel can get through these conditions but it takes longer to get to peak revs I think you have hit the nail on the head with this. I'm sure it is the on/off nature of the power delivery and very narrow power band as opposed to a nice broad torque curve and progressive power delivery controlled by the riders right wrist that is causing a lot of the problems. Gerry King was developing a GM motor with the old JAP longstroke dimensions which had a couple of outings at Rye House, but with very limited resources it is a slow process. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 In terms of mph there is not a lot of difference between 2015 and 1975 so what do you base your conviction that bikes are the problem on. I am not saying you are right or wrong but wonder what you think is the probkem The main problem would seem to be the Lay Down Engines. Speedway is all about sliding a Bike - to do that properly you need Dirt. You cannot give these Lay Down Engines Dirt as you explain in your excellent Post below. The Sport used to be known as Dirt Track Racing and was a great spectacle - today however - it is still a spectacle but, without Dirt, it simply isn't the same or as safe. That is though, only my opinion. In the last 40 years mph has only increased slightly. On a bigger track like say Sheffield 40 years ago they would hit the bends at 60 - 65 mph, now its probably 65 - 70 mph. Fall off a motorbike at either 60 or 65 and it hurts pretty much the same. We see very few (thankfully) fatalities nowadays largely due to helmet technology and no lighting standards in close proximity, coupled with air fences. We do possibly see more damage to limbs, largely because modern race suits and armour don't afford the same protection as an old set of leathers. A modern bike though revs massively more than its 1970s counterpart and thanks to short stroke motors with super lightweight flywheels and modern silencers has a very limited (zero) power band, it will only really work at max revs, throttle control is a thing of the past, the bike needs to on the stop. On a slick super smooth track these machines are so much easier (and safer) to ride but they have little torque so when the rear wheel hits resistance in the form of grip rather than ride through it it will grab the wheel and send the bike lifting and pointing all wrong. A long stroke motor with a normal flywheel can get through these conditions but it takes longer to get to peak revs Great Post. I am prepared to admit that you know more about the Technical Side of Speedway than me - so I accept what you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 The main problem would seem to be the Lay Down Engines. Speedway is all about sliding a Bike - to do that properly you need Dirt. You cannot give these Lay Down Engines Dirt as you explain in your excellent Post below. The Sport used to be known as Dirt Track Racing and was a great spectacle - today however - it is still a spectacle but, without Dirt, it simply isn't the same or as safe. That is though, only my opinion. Great Post. I am prepared to admit that you know more about the Technical Side of Speedway than me - so I accept what you say. I know a lot more about everything than you!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 I know a lot more about everything than you!!!!!!!!!!!!! You wish............................ :rofl: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Bot all injuries are due to "safety issues". Freddie Lindgren had a rib injury during the pre-season since he had crashed with his MX-bike during a practice session in Andorra with Joonas Kylmäkorpi. Probably not that unusual that riders injure themselves outside the speedway track while doing mountain biking or jogging in the forest. Since the Uk-season starts so early it hard for some riders to get some practice before the start of the season, the "stars" obviously have the resources to go to a track in southern Europe to practice while the most of the riders does not have that possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazeaway Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 I know a lot more about everything than you!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hardly a proud boast... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherwatcher Posted March 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 The way they are now developing the engines, it will not be that far in the future that they become over developed, and become an ever more dangerous peice of equipment. You can only go so far for before they get to the point, that the engines will blow them selves up a little bit on the lines of a dragster. I personally think it is time to have a complete rethink on the engine production and go back to the old Jawa engines. Put more dirt on the tracks, yes the lap times would be slower, the riders would have to re think the way they ride. But in th end it would give us far better, closer racing, than the full out throttle from the start and keep it at maximum revs untill the end of the race. They would have quite a shock I think when they had to use their right wrist a lot more to control the bike, instead of just open it up and go. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Hardly a proud boast... Peter Boast is proud of his career! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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