Bagpuss Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I think speedway has the same problem as football in this country, as soon as a promising youngster comes along we all lump massive amounts of pressure and expectation on him as we don't produce a good one very often. The media do it in football, Raheem Sterling is suffering from it at the moment....he is being touted for big moves to Spain for £150k a week but when you actually watch him play his decision making and final ball is a long, long way off what is should be for a top class player. Riders like Lambert, Perks etc really need leaving alone to develop at their own pace. They may well have the ingredients required BUT its all about hard work, application, fine tuning of their skills and seeing how they develop over the next 4-5 years. As far as Woffy goes I'd say he was better than Robert at the same age simply because he could gate much better. Don't want to labour the point but Lambert HAS to develop that part of his game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruiser McHuge Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I agree that gating is such an issue if you want to move upwards and be something on the world stage....and I agree that Woffinden had that more than Lambert seems to do......but it can come with experience , better set ups and better equipment if you have the talent...but sometimes people are just better gaters than others and always will be.....it's a massive help to be good at it though... I remember Andy Smith and Paul Smith when they were young...Andy was the worst gater I've ever seen at 16 /17 but a fantastic racer....Paul could outgate anybody , even top internationals, but was never a racer and was easily passed....I bet Andy would have loved Paul's gating ability but sometimes it's what you're born with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Wouldn't have been anywhere near as much fun watching Andy Smith if he could have gated though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 TBF, what you're saying there is you cannot call someone the next big thing until they are the big thing, in which case they're not the next big thing if that makes any sense. The whole "next big thing" thing is that you're predicting who will be good. No he is really saying that they have to be a medium sized thing before you can think about them being a big thing. Riders develop at different rates. Going back 4or 5 years I don't think many people would confidently be saying Neils Kristian Iveson would be making the real big time and success has come at a relatively late stage in his career. Bomber has not reached the dizzy heights people were anticipating after his GP win at Cardiff. There is also the question of how a riders body develops. Riders like Greg and PK have had long careers partly because they have constitutions that keep them slim without losing strength. On the other hand, Joe Screen, for all his natural brilliance had a permanent weight problem as his career moved on and it wasn't all through eating pies. As far as Lambert is concerned he isn't even an EL heatleader yet. Not many British riders even get that far, so let's see how it goes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 A very interesting discussion. FWIW I broadly agree with screamer although I also think that SCBs point about a shorter timescale is also valid. In the 1970s there were a whole load of speedway books (Champions Book of Speedway etc) that usually had a chapter entitled 'Stars of Tomorrow' that would highlight future stars like Bobby McNeil, Chris Turner, Malcolm Ballard and Frank Auffret - none of whom went on to become world beaters. I'd say that any prediction based on less than three years of racing is likely to be little better than a guess (unless you are dealing with a Michael Lee, Darcy Ward or Tai Woffinden). Compare Ellis Perks (aged 18) with Tai Woffinden at a similar age. Wuffy was already banging in double figure scores in both the Polish Extaliga and Swedish Elitserien. Perks may turn out to be a very good rider (say on a par with Rory Schlein or Danny King) but it would be hard to rate his prospects as higher than that. [Rory Schlein turned 18 late in 2002 a season in which he averaged 10.96 in the Conference League and over 6 in the PL] Looking at those who've appeared for Team GB in the World Cup since 2006 gives us 11 riders, one of whom (Scott Nicholls) started riding before the Conference League began. The NL/CL careers of the other 10 suggests that to reach international standard a rider should be averaging 8+ in their first season (I've ignored instances where the rider made less than 5 appearances), and 10+ in their second season. Seven riders meet those criteria (I've included Lewis Bridger and Lee Richardson as their one year in the CL produced a 9+ and 11.64 averages respectively) - and three don't (one of whom - Chris Harris - didn't have a second season in the CL) Other riders meet these criteria and still haven't made Team GB: Paul Lee, David Howe, Josh Auty, Chris Neath, Lee Complin (who averaged over 7 in the PL in his second season). [and Australia in the case of Matty Wethers who averaged 9+/10+ in his two CL seasons.] Back to Robert Lambert, he averaged 9.97 as a 15 year old in the NL. I can only find three riders who bettered that at 15: Tai Woffinden... 9.99 Josh Auty ...10.10 (turned 16 late in the season) David Howe .. 11.02 (he scored a 15 point maximum on his debut) [best averages for 16 year olds: Joe Haines 11.40, Ed Kennett 11.30, Woffinden 11.25] Apart from Robert Lambert the other current rider who meets the '8/10 test' is Cam Heeps (9.94 as a 15 year old and 11.18 in year two). Three other current young riders compare well with Danny King and Ben Barker (the two Team GB members with slower starts to their careers): Adam Ellis (8.24/9.73) Kyle Howarth (4.62/7.43/10.50), and Jason Garrity (7.07/9.48/10.45) These figures are used to illustrate the point that you can't tell who will and who won't make it to the top (consider the slow but steady assent of Jason Doyle). The strength of the CL/NL varies from one year to the next for various reasons so averages from one season aren't strictly comparable to another and examining early years in the PL would also give a fuller picture. And if asked to predict I'd expect to see Robert Lambert in the GPs, Kyle Howarth riding for Team GB while Garrity, Ellis and Max Clegg might make Team GB. [Thanks to Malcolm Vasey for providing most of the stats] 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommelier Posted March 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I think speedway has the same problem as football in this country, as soon as a promising youngster comes along we all lump massive amounts of pressure and expectation on him as we don't produce a good one very often. The media do it in football, Raheem Sterling is suffering from it at the moment....he is being touted for big moves to Spain for £150k a week but when you actually watch him play his decision making and final ball is a long, long way off what is should be for a top class player. Riders like Lambert, Perks etc really need leaving alone to develop at their own pace. They may well have the ingredients required BUT its all about hard work, application, fine tuning of their skills and seeing how they develop over the next 4-5 years. As far as Woffy goes I'd say he was better than Robert at the same age simply because he could gate much better. Don't want to labour the point but Lambert HAS to develop that part of his game. Fair point, im just very excited about Lambert, and so good he is British! A very interesting discussion. FWIW I broadly agree with screamer although I also think that SCBs point about a shorter timescale is also valid. In the 1970s there were a whole load of speedway books (Champions Book of Speedway etc) that usually had a chapter entitled 'Stars of Tomorrow' that would highlight future stars like Bobby McNeil, Chris Turner, Malcolm Ballard and Frank Auffret - none of whom went on to become world beaters. I'd say that any prediction based on less than three years of racing is likely to be little better than a guess (unless you are dealing with a Michael Lee, Darcy Ward or Tai Woffinden). Compare Ellis Perks (aged 18) with Tai Woffinden at a similar age. Wuffy was already banging in double figure scores in both the Polish Extaliga and Swedish Elitserien. Perks may turn out to be a very good rider (say on a par with Rory Schlein or Danny King) but it would be hard to rate his prospects as higher than that. [Rory Schlein turned 18 late in 2002 a season in which he averaged 10.96 in the Conference League and over 6 in the PL] Looking at those who've appeared for Team GB in the World Cup since 2006 gives us 11 riders, one of whom (Scott Nicholls) started riding before the Conference League began. The NL/CL careers of the other 10 suggests that to reach international standard a rider should be averaging 8+ in their first season (I've ignored instances where the rider made less than 5 appearances), and 10+ in their second season. Seven riders meet those criteria (I've included Lewis Bridger and Lee Richardson as their one year in the CL produced a 9+ and 11.64 averages respectively) - and three don't (one of whom - Chris Harris - didn't have a second season in the CL) Other riders meet these criteria and still haven't made Team GB: Paul Lee, David Howe, Josh Auty, Chris Neath, Lee Complin (who averaged over 7 in the PL in his second season). [and Australia in the case of Matty Wethers who averaged 9+/10+ in his two CL seasons.] Back to Robert Lambert, he averaged 9.97 as a 15 year old in the NL. I can only find three riders who bettered that at 15: Tai Woffinden... 9.99 Josh Auty ...10.10 (turned 16 late in the season) David Howe .. 11.02 (he scored a 15 point maximum on his debut) [best averages for 16 year olds: Joe Haines 11.40, Ed Kennett 11.30, Woffinden 11.25] Apart from Robert Lambert the other current rider who meets the '8/10 test' is Cam Heeps (9.94 as a 15 year old and 11.18 in year two). Three other current young riders compare well with Danny King and Ben Barker (the two Team GB members with slower starts to their careers): Adam Ellis (8.24/9.73) Kyle Howarth (4.62/7.43/10.50), and Jason Garrity (7.07/9.48/10.45) These figures are used to illustrate the point that you can't tell who will and who won't make it to the top (consider the slow but steady assent of Jason Doyle). The strength of the CL/NL varies from one year to the next for various reasons so averages from one season aren't strictly comparable to another and examining early years in the PL would also give a fuller picture. And if asked to predict I'd expect to see Robert Lambert in the GPs, Kyle Howarth riding for Team GB while Garrity, Ellis and Max Clegg might make Team GB. [Thanks to Malcolm Vasey for providing most of the stats] One of the most interesting posts i have ever read on this Forum. I applaud you for your knowledge 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee jay Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 No it can't. It really cannot not. Even if you imagined it. Rune Holta was born in Norway and had a Norweigan passport and a Norweigan license. He then moved to Poland, eventually after living their long enough he was able to take out Polish citizenship which entitled him to a Polish passport only then could he ride for Poland in the SWC. He did NOT flit back to Norway ever, once he was Polish thats what he was and now is. His license makes sod all difference. He could take out a German, Latvian, American or Argentinian license and he'd still be Polish and the only country he can ride for in the SWC is Poland. You ride in the GPs for the country that provides you with your license though. So you could have a German license but a British passport, so you'd ride for GB in the SWC. I'm not sure why it matters what license someone has though as even if a Brit had a German license and won a GP they'd still play the British National anthem as the rider would be British. Who is this rider that switched between Latvian and Russian? Greg Laguta, both in Russis and married to a Latvia woman and living in Latvia tried to get Latvia citizenship but failed the tests. As a result of that he couldn't get a passport so the only country he can ride for in the SWC is Russia, he cannot chose to ride for Latvia, even if he has a Latvia license (which he may, or may not have, I have no idea and I doubt anyone knows what license most riders have as they have no relevance to anything) Rory Schlein rode in the 2014 SEC qualifiers as the ACU (GB) representative but he's still an Australian and cannot ride for GB in the SWC, only Australia - unless he applies for British citizenship and a passport. Changing your Nationality is NOT a speedway thing either. It's up to the country who they allow citizenship to. I'm guessing the Germans are quite picky. i think laguta is the one i was thinking of. i still think holta raced in the world cup for poland, was dropped after they failed to win it and when the poles filled their positons in the next gp 's he represented norway but as you say maybe i imagined it. i didn't mention either rory shlein or that it was a 'speedway thing'. i'm sending you a pm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelman Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 The other thing to consider....to make it to the top a rider must have the total package..... Talent.Money.A Team.Desire .Determination......I,m sure you could add a few more.....without it you just can,t back it up week after week. It,s a big ask especially for the younger riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenga Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 STILL A NO FROM ME... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommelier Posted March 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 STILL A NO FROM ME... I do hope you are wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pob Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Well thats just brightened up a rather boring slow afternoon at work reading all these posts about Lambert , well thats what i thought i was meant to be reading about turned out to be more about Risager and how he never really moved on from his early promise but nerveless an entertaining read. But back to Lambert only seen him once at Ipswich for the Billy Sanders meeting and for one at a very early point in their career he put in a very good showing against some proven P/L riders . His gating needs a little work but once he was at the front looked very fast .Never saw Tai at a young age so can't comment on that front only got back into the speedway scene about 18 months ago . Will he develop who knows he's got talent and its up to him how far he wants to go. Good luck to Lambert i say fingers crossed you have a good season and continue to develop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Something I do know is that we need to support him rather than make any rash judgements ..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proud panther Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Riding regular in the Premier League can only help his progress. Looks very quick if he gates, & just needs more experience in the art of gating. With the right attitude, I think he has every chance of making it to the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 STILL A NO FROM ME...was expecting tonights max to be dedicated to you in that final interview - ah well maybe the next one! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 What a fine prospect Robert Lambert is turning out to be. He was superb this evening. I doubt I have ever seen a sixteen year old show so much maturity on a Speedway Bike before. Not only did he win Races for fun - he Team rode like a veteran. I wish him all the very best in the future. If he stays as grounded - as he appeared to be on Television tonight - he may be another English Rider to get to the very top of the Sport. I certainly hope so. I thoroughly enjoyed watching him this evening. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 was expecting tonights max to be dedicated to you in that final interview - ah well maybe the next one! 1 top draw maximum a swan it does not make. Time and space is required 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrotron Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Good luck to the lad showed real promise tonight and looked smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Was impressive on the bike,opposition non existant . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Chuffed for Robert tonight,i see him last year and he was always on the pace it was just his gating that let him down.I thought he had a superb year generally it was a tough ask for him in the top five but he did very well indeed.Tonight things came together for him, doubling up has to be great for him more meeting's more sharpness .What i would like for him this year is to qualify for a British Final and put on a great show and push on to get in the five man WTC squad. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommelier Posted April 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Well for the Lambert knockers, i hope that performance last night made them sit up and take note! Only one meeting i know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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