Tampere Gp

[waiheke1]

How do you propose to get 40,000+ spectators into Belle Vue?

 

Niamh

We sees no benefit in getting 40k+ fans in. He'd rather see 12k attend at belle vue as that would be better for the sport....

[fatface]

That for me is where the argument falls down.Ok one or two Polish tracks could build a decent stadium with GPs in mind,but once you get to 4 or 5 then you have too much competition in your country to be assured of getting big meetings regularly.So the theory can't really explain the amount of tracks.And like I already mentioned Togliatti is "this sort of stadium" and hasn't held a GP.You then end up building a great stadium hoping to host GPs etc and and half decent stadium in another country i.e Vojens,Malilla or Belle Vue gets to host them instead because of the rota.........and like you say the calculations about how much money they must make from the GPs etc has forgotten all about how much they have to pay out to host them

At the risk of sounding like a broken record. The initial construction of these stadiums is less likely without regular GP or SWC events. Of course, regular league speedway is the bread and butter. But without the big income driver of regular World Championship speedway and the obvious benefits to local economies, why would city councils put their money in their pocket in the first instance?

 

As you rightly point out, there are a few stadiums in Poland who could fall into this bracket. Not all will get a big event every year. But it's worth noting there are four major events across GP and SWC in Poland this year. Three more if we also take into account SEC pairs and individual.

 

On GP trips to Torun and Bydgoszcz the flights from London are full and getting a hotel room is not easy. It may well be these are brilliant holiday destinations and they are buzzing every weekend. But I someohow doubt it.

 

None of us know the exact numbers behind GP finances. So we can all speculate til the cows come home. But let's take Torun tickets as an example. As I said above, I paid £100 a ticket (actually it was probably a smidge over). Let's say there are 3,000 others who buy the same top price ticket. Racers and Royals says he pays £30. I'm sure there is also a middle tier price, but let's be really conservative and say that's the price for the rest of the 12,500 seats. On gate receipts alone, you are talking £650,000 for that one night - at a conservative estimate.

 

Now, I am aware there are plenty of associated costs. Remember those are all in zlotys though (also zlotys to build the damn thing)...considerably cheaper than UK prices. Unless BSI is taking a Bernie Ecclestone-esque fee, there is decent profit there. And this doesn't even take into account most of the crowd drinking, eating, merchandise, programmmes, hospitality, sponsorship etc.

 

On Togliatti, I'm with one of the posters above. I suspect BSI would love to take the event to Russia, but ridiculous red tape issues - possibly with taking non EU riders there? - have so far prevented it.

Edited May 22, 2015 by falcace

[Humphrey Appleby]

The initial construction of these stadiums is less likely without regular GP or SWC events.

With all due respect, what do you base this assertion on? Why would teams and/or councils fund multi-million zloty construction costs on the basis of getting maybe getting a GP for 3 years, and an SWC event event even less frequently?

 

None of us know the exact numbers behind GP finances. So we can all speculate til the cows come home.

We're not speculating. BSI's accounts are publicly available, the money spent by some local governments on GPs (Cardiff and Gorzow in particular) is in the public domain, and I think Bill Buckley also went public with his staging costs for the NZ GP. I've also been told by separate reasonably reliable sources what BSI charges, so I think fair guesstimates on the potential returns of a GP can be made.

 

On gate receipts alone, you are talking £650,000 for that one night - at a conservative estimate.

I think I saw that Torun's stadium came in at £6.5 million. Assuming the above figure is correct, £250,000 might conceivably be profit, so that will take 26 GPs to recoup the building cost.

 

I wouldn't invest my money on that basis.

 

I suspect BSI would love to take the event to Russia, but ridiculous red tape issues - possibly with taking non EU riders there? - have so far prevented it.

Togliatti obviously didn't want to stump up the asking price even before the recent difficulties, and BSI probably didn't want to deal with gangsters either.

[severnsider]

I think I saw that Torun's stadium came in at £6.5 million. Assuming the above figure is correct, £250,000 might conceivably be profit, so that will take 26 GPs to recoup the building cost.

 

I wouldn't invest my money on that basis.

I assumed that a large part of the building cost was covered by the sale of the old stadium site which has been converted into a large shopping centre.

[Humphrey Appleby]

I assumed that a large part of the building cost was covered by the sale of the old stadium site which has been converted into a large shopping centre.

I don't really know how it was financed, but either way, I doubt a GP or SWC would greatly influence the financing decisions.

 

In the meantime, this week's Spar actually suggests that the GP should be taken away from Tampere in favour of Germany. I had to laugh though, at the complaints about 'venomous comments' and 'poison' emanating from social media, as if it's our fault that BSI have put on two crap GPs.

 

And for anyone under any illusion how BSI 'raises the bar', the interview with Martin Smolinksi is quite revealing.

 

[f-s-p]

I don't really know how it was financed, but either way, I doubt a GP or SWC would greatly influence the financing decisions.

In the meantime, this week's Spar actually suggests that the GP should be taken away from Tampere in favour of Germany. I had to laugh though, at the complaints about 'venomous comments' and 'poison' emanating from social media, as if it's our fault that BSI have put on two crap GPs.

And for anyone under any illusion how BSI 'raises the bar', the interview with Martin Smolinksi is quite revealing.

 

So what you are actually saying, is that the latest Spar was a good read? The German tv deal has been explained here last year. Some of Smoli's whining is unnecessary, since there's only so much that BSI can do. If German tv says they are not interested, then they are not...

[Humphrey Appleby]

If German tv says they are not interested, then they are not...

He said he'd asked BSI for footage to help attract sponsors which had not been forthcoming.

[f-s-p]

He said he'd asked BSI for footage to help attract sponsors which had not been forthcoming.

Buu huu

[PHILIPRISING]

He said he'd asked BSI for footage to help attract sponsors which had not been forthcoming.

COULD always buy the box set of dvds...

[customhouseregular]

Having just finished watching the complete 2014 box set, I'd say that was an excellent suggestion.

[RobMcCaffery]

I don't really know how it was financed, but either way, I doubt a GP or SWC would greatly influence the financing decisions.

 

In the meantime, this week's Spar actually suggests that the GP should be taken away from Tampere in favour of Germany. I had to laugh though, at the complaints about 'venomous comments' and 'poison' emanating from social media, as if it's our fault that BSI have put on two crap GPs.

 

And for anyone under any illusion how BSI 'raises the bar', the interview with Martin Smolinksi is quite revealing.

 

This forum can be rightly criticised for ill-informed, excessively offensive comment but in the case of the Warsaw fiasco I think the sport got off very lightly.

 

It seems the Poole disease of "let's deny everything, make insincere promises about the future and hope it all dies down quickly" is more pervasive than one would suspect.

 

If that's considered poisonous then great - it was intended to be. The sport's in denial and needs shaking out of its cosy complacency. I'd be interested to know who made those comments and how much they're covering up in their own contribution to the sport sinking to its knees.

 

At least we care - still - for now, but it's the silence of others that the speedway establishment that they really should be worried about - silent because they're long gone.

[Trees]

Nobody will forget Warsaw or Tampere.

[fatface]

With all due respect, what do you base this assertion on? Why would teams and/or councils fund multi-million zloty construction costs on the basis of getting maybe getting a GP for 3 years, and an SWC event event even less frequently?

 

 

We're not speculating. BSI's accounts are publicly available, the money spent by some local governments on GPs (Cardiff and Gorzow in particular) is in the public domain, and I think Bill Buckley also went public with his staging costs for the NZ GP. I've also been told by separate reasonably reliable sources what BSI charges, so I think fair guesstimates on the potential returns of a GP can be made.

 

 

I think I saw that Torun's stadium came in at £6.5 million. Assuming the above figure is correct, £250,000 might conceivably be profit, so that will take 26 GPs to recoup the building cost.

 

I wouldn't invest my money on that basis.

 

 

Togliatti obviously didn't want to stump up the asking price even before the recent difficulties, and BSI probably didn't want to deal with gangsters either.

Thankyou kindly for the due respect. It is greatly appreciated. Might I also offer you my most sincere due respect too...

 

Let's have a look at some of our maths.

 

ME:

Gate Receipts - conservative estimate of £650,000 weighted to lower ticket price and even allowing for less than capacity and not including middle price - also based on 2012 price.

 

YOU:

£400,000 cost for GP based on...erm...

 

I hope you haven't costed this based on the New Zealand GP? I would have thought it pretty obvious, but I'll say it nonetheless. Staging a GP across the other side of the world with 16 European based riders and their teams, their equipment and European officials might just be a tad more costly than a European-based GP. Even you must agree with that.

 

Again, to bang on about it for the umpteenth time - you haven't taken into acccount profit from sponsorship, TV, food, drink, merchandise, hospitality, programme sales. As another poster wisely points out, you also didn't take into account the sale of the previous Torun track in paying for the new stadium. I'd be interested to see what your breakdown of this 400k is. Just in case you forget - which I'm sure you won't - volunteers form the bulk of the workforce at any major sporting event. With your budget, they are surely in for a cracking lunch.

 

So when you talk about not investing money, I think it's wise you keep any of your money to yourself. You're business acumen wouldn't really serve you well. To say the hosting of SWC or GP - the major events in our sport - is not a factor when these stadiums are built is getting towards bonkersville.

 

Some more maths for you...top ticket prices for league meetings in Torun are £14.50 in the main stand and £3.40 in the cheaper seats. Using the same calculations as above for the GP, that's maximum gate receipts of £85k for a league match assuming - and its a big assumption - it's a full house. Now, tell me again that the hosting of GP and SWC do not greatly influence finance decisions in building these stadiums when they generate a minimum of eight times as much in gate receipts alone.

 

Let's hope the team at Belle Vue are sharper financially when the National Stadium hosts regular SWC (maybe GP, maybe even EC events?) in the coming years. Not just to make the most of hosting 6,000 crowds in front of television audiences, but also showcasing the sport to potential sponsors on those occasions, who might be interested in investing in the club on a regular basis.

 

Due respect to you Sir.

 

Edited May 26, 2015 by falcace

[Humphrey Appleby]

£400,000 cost for GP based on...erm...

I hope you haven't costed this based on the New Zealand GP? I would have thought it pretty obvious, but I'll say it nonetheless. Staging a GP across the other side of the world with 16 European based riders and their teams, their equipment and European officials might just be a tad more costly than a European-based GP. Even you must agree with that.

Not basing it on the NZ GP at all. Their staging costs were certainly significantly higher, but in any case, the fees charged depend on what BSI think they can wring out of the locals.

 

However, someone in Gorzow City Council did go public with their staging costs, and I have heard from other sources about what gets charged.

 

Again, to bang on about it for the umpteenth time - you haven't taken into acccount profit from sponsorship, TV, food, drink, merchandise, hospitality, programme sales.

Television and sponsorship money goes to BSI, not the local organisers, with the exception that a GP organiser is allowed to have (I think) six advertising boards to sell local sponsorship. The in-stadium sales may not go to the local organiser at all - it depends on the relationship between them and the stadium, although of course it will be factored into the stadium owner's expected revenues.

 

As another poster wisely points out, you also didn't take into account the sale of the previous Torun track in paying for the new stadium.

Yes, but in that case the stadium isn't being built on the basis of getting a GP which was your assertion.

 

I'd be interested to see what your breakdown of this 400k is.

Gorzow were reportedly charged 300K for staging a GP, and Warsaw allegedly asked for that too (and only wanted to pay 200K) so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume Torun might be in a similar ballpark. Then you have the FIM inscription fee which is multiple thousand pounds (can't remember off the top of my head, but 20K for a GP comes to mind), the provision of hotel rooms for riders and officials, 250 free prime seats for FIM/BSI dignitaries, track preparation, provision of advertising boards, stadium stewarding and security, and other assorted organisational costs. So I don't think another 100K would be unreasonable at all, and is probably on the conservative side.

 

Just in case you forget - which I'm sure you won't - volunteers form the bulk of the workforce at any major sporting event.

I never worked at a sporting event for free.

 

So when you talk about not investing money, I think it's wise you keep any of your money to yourself. You're business acumen wouldn't really serve you well. To say the hosting of SWC or GP - the major events in our sport - is not a factor when these stadiums are built is getting towards bonkersville.

So you'd invest 7 million euros on the possibility of getting maybe 3 GPs and 1 SWC event over the capital depreciation period of the project? Events over which you have limited control, where there's now competition from the SEC, and the organisation of which can (and does) go badly wrong which could wipe out expected attendances in following years (just ask Tampere)? In that case I'm happy to have poor business acumen and keep my money in my pocket.

 

Some more maths for you...top ticket prices for league meetings in Torun are £14.50 in the main stand and £3.40 in the cheaper seats. Using the same calculations as above for the GP, that's maximum gate receipts of £85k for a league match assuming - and its a big assumption - it's a full house.

And Torun will be staging at least seven or eight (possibly ten) of those meetings per year, and you can be reasonably certain they'll be doing so for at least 10 years unlike staging a GP or SWC. The returns may be smaller per event, but the returns are more reliable over time.

 

Let's hope the team at Belle Vue are sharper financially when the National Stadium hosts regular SWC (maybe GP, maybe even EC events?) in the coming years. Not just to make the most of hosting 6,000 crowds in front of television audiences, but also showcasing the sport to potential sponsors on those occasions, who might be interested in investing in the club on a regular basis.

Belle Vue will never make that stadium pay on the back of GP or SWC, even more so with just a 6,000 capacity.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby

[fatface]

Belle Vue will never make that stadium pay on the back of GP or SWC, even more so with just a 6,000 capacity.

*Sigh*

Of course they won't. The turnover from regular use of the stadium for league speedway and other leisure activities is critical. But to eliminate the GP and SWC - the biggest events the stadium will ever likely host - as any significant factor in the business model is plain nonsense.

[PHILIPRISING]

*Sigh*

Of course they won't. The turnover from regular use of the stadium for league speedway and other leisure activities is critical. But to eliminate the GP and SWC - the biggest events the stadium will ever likely host - as any significant factor in the business model is plain nonsense.

AND, of course, the capacity can be greatly increased to (I believe) around 16,000 should the need arise.

[Bruiser McHuge]

COULD always buy the box set of dvds...

I'm sure he wouldn't be allowed to publicly broadcast bits of it for his own gain though without the prior permission of BSI..so it amounts to the same thing really I'd say.

[iris123]

So Torun was the old sell the land off to a supermarket and get a new site or stadium at a reduced cost.This has happened before.Think of the Crayford stadium or Dulwich Hamlets.And I don't think they were hoping to host a match in the World Cup or a piece of the Olympics as part of their plan

[Ghostwalker]

So Torun was the old sell the land off to a supermarket and get a new site or stadium at a reduced cost.This has happened before.

Think of the Crayford stadium or Dulwich Hamlets.And I don't think they were hoping to host a match in the World Cup or a piece of the Olympics as part of their plan

 

It's the same story in Eskilstuna, Smederna had their old track, Snälltorpet, located in the city but was "evicted" since the city

wanted to sell the land to constructions companies who intended to use the area for housing. Anyway the city built a new track 12km outside the city.

which the city still owns and which the clubs rent from the city. Quite far from the city but the advantage is that almost all motorsport in the city now can

be found at the same place at Eskilstuna Motosportarena. Only club have their own locations now (Eskilstuna MK) which have their own

Folkrace/Rally sprint/Rally cross track about 5 km outside the city in a former gravel pit.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Ghostwalker

[Humphrey Appleby]

COULD always buy the box set of dvds...

 

So this is the organisation that openly says it pays poor prize money, but provides the platform for riders to go out and get sponsorship? A competitor is seriously expected to go out and buy a DVD of himself?