stratton Posted February 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) No I'm not. In 1980 Gundersen averaged 8.09 (including bonus), equivalent to about a 6pt average now at best, so going into 81 he was as I described, a young promising rider. In 81 he began to establish himself, lifting average to 9.71, finishing 4th in World FInal. However, he was still one who 'may' go on to be champion. There have been many riders who have not fulfilled their potential. As for your comments about PC and Olsen...what you still aren't grasping is ALL the no 1's were 'nearly unbeatable' as they rarely raced each other. It's no evidence at all they were better than riders from a later era. Of course they were good riders, but being 'nearly unbeatable' in the league was simply beating up on lower riders than themselves. But both at that stage and year were more than just as you say just PROMISING Nielsen/Gundersen.You must be in your own little world Collins for a period at Hyde Rd was nearly unbeatable i was not a fan i was a Lee supporter but Collins was great and exciting with it.Olsen also was a great, are you SAYING both of these blokes beat up on lesser riders total rubbish both were great riders you would have to be Stevie Wonder not to know that. No I'm not. In 1980 Gundersen averaged 8.09 (including bonus), equivalent to about a 6pt average now at best, so going into 81 he was as I described, a young promising rider. In 81 he began to establish himself, lifting average to 9.71, finishing 4th in World FInal. However, he was still one who 'may' go on to be champion. There have been many riders who have not fulfilled their potential. As for your comments about PC and Olsen...what you still aren't grasping is ALL the no 1's were 'nearly unbeatable' as they rarely raced each other. It's no evidence at all they were better than riders from a later era. Of course they were good riders, but being 'nearly unbeatable' in the league was simply beating up on lower riders than themselves. I hope you have the right averages? where did you get them from?Was you watching speedway at Swindon when Fin Thompson was ther ?Yes and i see him score ?I think on an oversized engine for Wolves my memory is going it could of been 19 pts? at Swindon. Edited February 7, 2015 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 But both at that stage and year were more than just as you say just PROMISING Nielsen/Gundersen.You must be in your own little world Collins for a period at Hyde Rd was nearly unbeatable i was not a fan i was a Lee supporter but Collins was great and exciting with it.Olsen also was a great, are you SAYING both of these blokes beat up on lesser riders total rubbish both were great riders you would have to be Stevie Wonder not to know that. I hope you have the right averages? where did you get them from? Yes and i see him score ?I think on an oversized engine for Wolves my memory is going it could of been 19 pts? at Swindon. Yes Collins and Lee did beat up on lesser riders, as did most other no 1 riders in the league. Once again Sidney, you are trying to argue against FACTS: They faced their opposing No 1 once... Put them in the current system, or even the old 15 heat system and suddenly they are racing their opposing no 1 three times in a meeting. Not so unbeatable anymore.. but still the same rider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) Yes Collins and Lee did beat up on lesser riders, as did most other no 1 riders in the league. Once again Sidney, you are trying to argue against FACTS: They faced their opposing No 1 once... Put them in the current system, or even the old 15 heat system and suddenly they are racing their opposing no 1 three times in a meeting. Not so unbeatable anymore.. but still the same rider. Just on a point of information and not to be too pedantic ... Peter Collins almost never rode at Number One for Belle Vue. In the years from 74 to 80 he rode almost every match at Number 3 in the later years 82 to 86 he tended to ride almost exclusively at Number 5 ( sometimes 3). Michael Lee equally rarely rode at Number One in his entire Kings Lynn career. He almost exclusively rode at Number 5 for the Stars. Just for the record. In the old 13 heat formula riders at Number 3 and Number 5 met the opposing Number 1 TWICE in every match Home and Away. I hate to say it, And shall do so with tongue firmly in cheek. But ... those actually ARE facts. . Edited February 7, 2015 by Grand Central 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) Just on a point of information and not to be too pedantic ... Peter Collins almost never rode at Number One for Belle Vue. In the years from 74 to 80 he rode almost every match at Number 3 in the later years 82 to 86 he tended to ride almost exclusively at Number 5 ( sometimes 3). Michael Lee equally rarely rode at Number One in his entire Kings Lynn career. He almost exclusively rode at Number 5 for the Stars. Just for the record. In the old 13 heat formula riders at Number 3 and Number 5 met the opposing Number 1 TWICE in every match Home and Away. I hate to say it, And shall do so with tongue firmly in cheek. But ... those actually ARE facts. . How many times did the top 2 riders for each team race each other in the same heat? That is the key difference. Someone is going to finish last... twice. Same riders, but now a vastly different perception and differing averages too. Edited February 7, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 How many times did the top 2 riders for each team race each other in the same heat? That is the key difference. Someone is going to finish last... twice. Same riders, but now a vastly different perception and differing averages too. I was merely correcting a wrong assertion you made concerning Messrs Collins and Lee riding at number 1 in their respective teams. No more, no less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Just on a point of information and not to be too pedantic ... Peter Collins almost never rode at Number One for Belle Vue. In the years from 74 to 80 he rode almost every match at Number 3 in the later years 82 to 86 he tended to ride almost exclusively at Number 5 ( sometimes 3). Michael Lee equally rarely rode at Number One in his entire Kings Lynn career. He almost exclusively rode at Number 5 for the Stars. Just for the record. In the old 13 heat formula riders at Number 3 and Number 5 met the opposing Number 1 TWICE in every match Home and Away. I hate to say it, And shall do so with tongue firmly in cheek. But ... those actually ARE facts. . although pc did ride a fair few meetings at number 1 for the aces away in 84.And of course, he was never the aces best rider in that 82-86 period, that was mort who rode at 3 (82-84), or 1 (85-86), though a number of meetings (esp 83) @4 and some @5. As bwitcher points out, you pretty much never had the top two from each side in the same race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) although pc did ride a fair few meetings at number 1 for the aces away in 84. And of course, he was never the aces best rider in that 82-86 period, that was mort who rode at 3 (82-84), or 1 (85-86), though a number of meetings (esp 83) @4 and some @5. As bwitcher points out, you pretty much never had the top two from each side in the same race. Thankfully I never contradicted BWitcher on that point. But you do agree that in his well, well, in excess of 500 meetings for Belle Vue; PC appeared in a good lot more than 90% of them in team positions that were NOT Number 1. Which was my point. Edited February 8, 2015 by Grand Central Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 How many times did the top 2 riders for each team race each other in the same heat? That is the key difference. Someone is going to finish last... twice. Same riders, but now a vastly different perception and differing averages too.The thirteen heat format that was in then, often had riders like Lee,Coilins,Sanders who would be at number five.I never even thought about what number they were at simple facts were they were all great riders.Collins and Lee were amongst the best of there generation,Collins at times i never really took much notice how many he scored it was how he did it.If there was stats i would imagine Collins passed alot of riders from the back and often on slick tracks a true racer.I just don't see your point, you odviously don't rate those two riders as highly as i do it would be interesting to see what people think who saw these two regular.I know GW at Lynn saw all of Lee's career and there are a few on here who were regular Hyde Rd visitors and saw alot of PC's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) No I'm not. In 1980 Gundersen averaged 8.09 (including bonus), equivalent to about a 6pt average now at best, so going into 81 he was as I described, a young promising rider. In 81 he began to establish himself, lifting average to 9.71, finishing 4th in World FInal. Averages don't really help here. Gundersen was never really one of those who had an exceptional league average, and Hans Nielsen would beat him 'hans down' in normal run-of-the-mill racing. Gundersen's ability was to pull World Final wins out of the bag, which was something that Nielsen was relatively poor at despite his unbelievable consistency in everything else. Rickardsson was of a similar mould. Edited February 8, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Averages don't really help here. Gundersen was never really one of those who had an exceptional league average, and Hans Nielsen would beat him 'hans down' in normal run-of-the-mill racing.Gundersen's ability was to pull World Final wins out of the bag, which was something that Nielsen was relatively poor at despite his unbelievable consistency in everything else. Rickardsson was of a similar mould.Hump i cannot believe this post from Witcher in a way damning Gundersen as a rider a six pointer really?. Gundersen over a period had Nielsen's number beating him endless times in important races but to even question Gundersen/Nielsen as not being great riders is puzzling maybe i was wrong on how good both were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Averages don't really help here. Gundersen was never really one of those who had an exceptional league average, and Hans Nielsen would beat him 'hans down' in normal run-of-the-mill racing. Gundersen's ability was to pull World Final wins out of the bag, which was something that Nielsen was relatively poor at despite his unbelievable consistency in everything else. Rickardsson was of a similar mould. agree on the second paragraph, but disagree on thr first.from memory eric was 2nd in the bl averages in 82, over 10.5 in 83, had a blip with the tape touching rules in 84, but was then over 11 (2nd only to hans) in 85/86. He was excellent in the bl, though as you say not as consistent as hans but with the ability to raise his game in world final night (h2h record against hans in finals I believe was 7-3 in eric's favour). Yes, the final was always missing a few of the top guys, although arguably that could be taken as proof that there were more top guys around in those days. Think about that. Transfer Schwartz's 1980 to 1984 form and he would waltz in the GP and stay in it for a few years. But between 1980 and 1984, he failed to qualify for a single World Final. A rider who won 3 FIM Gold Medals, and scored maximums in both the 1982 World Pairs and 1982 World Team Cup Final. But he couldn't reach a World Final. Boy, it was tough in those days. All the best Rob scwarz is an interesting one. I thought the same as you, that gps would have suited him. But when I did a statistical ranking system for each year in the 80s, I think he was only a top 10 rider once (1982). So tbh im not sure he would actually have qualified (and would never have got a wikd card ahead of the likes of sigalis or morans or even king), and if he had I don't think he wouldhave been ggood enough to finish top 8 and stay in. Purely speculative and in my opinion of course. Your comment about Erik/Hans is a strange one at that time they were both learning there craft paying there dues also Nielsen at that time was picked by some to win a title so he at the time was more than just promising.Those two as examples would of found the Gps an easy experience now,semis most meeting's finalists regular a different pressure but an easier one in my opinion as a mistake in one round now is not terminal.of course in 81 they were still three years away from winning a medal in a world final. Who would have known at that point that they would win 7 titles, but penhall, lee carter knudsen would go on to win only one more between them? You are right thought they would have cleaned up in the gos, from 84-89 they would have finished 1st and 2nd every season. Pretty much as they did in finals, were it not for erics implosion in 86 and ef in 89. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 agree on the second paragraph, but disagree on thr first. from memory eric was 2nd in the bl averages in 82, over 10.5 in 83, had a blip with the tape touching rules in 84, but was then over 11 (2nd only to hans) in 85/86. He was excellent in the bl, though as you say not as consistent as hans but with the ability to raise his game in world final night (h2h record against hans in finals I believe was 7-3 in eric's favour). scwarz is an interesting one. I thought the same as you, that gps would have suited him. But when I did a statistical ranking system for each year in the 80s, I think he was only a top 10 rider once (1982). So tbh im not sure he would actually have qualified (and would never have got a wikd card ahead of the likes of sigalis or morans or even king), and if he had I don't think he wouldhave been ggood enough to finish top 8 and stay in. Purely speculative and in my opinion of course. Forgetting Witchers points and he puts them across well , would you have Nielsen/Gundersen/Collins/Lee in a top 20 riders of all time ?i would have no hesitation in saying yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 L.In my opinion Mauger,Briggs,Fundin would of won more titles in a GP format and looking at it NIelsen he could of won at least 8 world titles.?The one off final was harder to win in my opinion real pressure tough qualifying rounds and it took a different quality to win it so dont underestimate how tough it was. Pretty good,fifteen world championship title wins in amongst that lot. I think this excercise has been done before. From memory consensus was that fundin may have won one or two more titles, briggo would have won the same or less, mauger 5-7 depending in if olsen could have pipped him in 71 or mich in 73. Ole would likely have won only 2 or 3. Of course for fundin to win more, it would for example mean the likes of craven, knutson or briggs would have won less. If knutson or craven wouldnt have won a gp series, does that show the world final was easier to win?as for the 15 world titles. At the start of the 81 seadon that list had only 5 from three riders, nine of ehom wiuld win a title agsin. Yhe current world top 25 have 8 or 9 between them (depends if you include gollob) ftom 4/5 world champs . I'd be surprised if they dont end up with at least 15 between them. Does that show more strengrh in depth now? Forgetting Witchers points and he puts them across well , would you have Nielsen/Gundersen/Collins/Lee in a top 20 riders of all time ?i would have no hesitation in saying yes.yes to the first three without a doubt. Lee probably, perhaps around 16 just ahead of the likes of gollob michanek knutson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Top 20 of all time ?Mauger,Briggs,Milne,Duggan,Young,Craven,Moore,Wilkinson,Farndon,Fundin,Rickardsson,Gollob,Crump,Hancock,Olsen,Lee,Collins,Nielsen,Gundersen, Knuttson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Nice list sid, but I reckon penhall and nicki p have to be in there. Call me a rabid agist, but it would be a couple of the oldies (milne, duggan, farndon or wilkinson) to miss out. Maybe 3 as I might be tempted to include michanek as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommelier Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Waihekeaces, you are spot on with Eric average in 82/83/85&86. Yes Eric could raise the bar in world final Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 No I'm not. In 1980 Gundersen averaged 8.09 (including bonus), equivalent to about a 6pt average now at best, so going into 81 he was as I described, a young promising rider. In 81 he began to establish himself, lifting average to 9.71, finishing 4th in World FInal. However, he was still one who 'may' go on to be champion. There have been many riders who have not fulfilled their potential. That's nonsense. I was at Wembley. Gundersen broke the track record, then suffered an engine failure while leading his third ride. He was good enough to be World Champion that year. You're tying yourself in knots, trying to prove something that is true as untrue. The standard of speedway rider in the early eighties was higher than it is now. All the best Rob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Poor old Greg, though, in all this. Even in a thread that is supposed to be all about him. We would all rather chat about things thirty plus years ago. Says a lot in itself about the 'all-time great' question, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommelier Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Nice list sid, but I reckon penhall and nicki p have to be in there. Call me a rabid agist, but it would be a couple of the oldies (milne, duggan, farndon or wilkinson) to miss out. Maybe 3 as I might be tempted to include michanek as well. What & no Olsen!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Thankfully I never contradicted BWitcher on that point. But you do agree that in his well, well, in excess of 500 meetings for Belle Vue; PC appeared in a good lot more than 90% of them in team positions that were NOT Number 1. Which was my point. Point taken Grand Central. My mistake is trying to really dumb things down so Sidney understands... its clear he doesn't though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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