customhouseregular Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 What have Olsen, PC or anyone else got to do with Greg?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 That's nonsense. I was at Wembley. Gundersen broke the track record, then suffered an engine failure while leading his third ride. He was good enough to be World Champion that year. You're tying yourself in knots, trying to prove something that is true as untrue. The standard of speedway rider in the early eighties was higher than it is now. All the best Rob Was Erik Gundersen World Champion in 1981? No he wasn't. Therefore quite simply he was still a rider who 'may' go on to become World Champion. Chris Louis came 3rd in 1993 on his debut... how many titles did he go on to win? The rest is statistical information, so, no nonsense there I'm afraid, try again. As for your standard of rider, I've already pointed out to you Chris Holder being 24th in Swedish League Averages. I would say he compares favourably with the 24th rider on any list from any era. As would Hans Andersen at 34. Waihekeaces uses an excellent ranking system, in which last year he had Freddie Lindgren at no 30. Again, he would compare with the no 30 rider in any other era. Poor old Greg, though, in all this. Even in a thread that is supposed to be all about him. We would all rather chat about things thirty plus years ago. Says a lot in itself about the 'all-time great' question, doesn't it? Not really, it says a lot about the tinted glasses we all wear when it comes to the past. I grew up watching Sam Ermolenko, to me, he is the best rider ever. Was he really, of course not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
customhouseregular Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Was Erik Gundersen World Champion in 1981? No he wasn't. Therefore quite simply he was still a rider who 'may' go on to become World Champion. Chris Louis came 3rd in 1993 on his debut... how many titles did he go on to win? The rest is statistical information, so, no nonsense there I'm afraid, try again. As for your standard of rider, I've already pointed out to you Chris Holder being 24th in Swedish League Averages. I would say he compares favourably with the 24th rider on any list from any era. As would Hans Andersen at 34. Waihekeaces uses an excellent ranking system, in which last year he had Freddie Lindgren at no 30. Again, he would compare with the no 30 rider in any other era. Not really, it says a lot about the tinted glasses we all wear when it comes to the past. I grew up watching Sam Ermolenko, to me, he is the best rider ever. Was he really, of course not. As every "Hammer" from the 60's knows. the best rider ever was Sverre Harrfeldt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) Hump i cannot believe this post from Witcher in a way damning Gundersen as a rider a six pointer really?. Gundersen over a period had Nielsen's number beating him endless times in important races but to even question Gundersen/Nielsen as not being great riders is puzzling maybe i was wrong on how good both were. Sidney, I said in 1980 he averaged 8.09.. which equates to a 6pter now. In 81, it was 9.71, which equates to about 8-8.5 now. He finished 4th in the World Final. At that point he was still a promising young rider (in the World Title sense). Nobody knew how many titles he would go on to win. As I've pointed out Chris Louis finished 3rd in 1993... he went on to win nothing.. as have many other riders who were touted over the years. Edited February 8, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Nice list sid, but I reckon penhall and nicki p have to be in there. Call me a rabid agist, but it would be a couple of the oldies (milne, duggan, farndon or wilkinson) to miss out. Maybe 3 as I might be tempted to include michanek as well. Ask Norbold? Penhall was a great rider and how many titles could he have won? but I believe as one time winners Lee/Collins were on a par Lee had a decent record with Penhall head to head.Pedersen for me is not in the greats department i know he won three titles ( dirty sod got away with murder a rider bully in my opinion) Adams and Sigalos were better riders than him.But in his era he is behind Rickardsson,Crump,Hancock and Gollob all were better riders but the level is VERY high is today? Without Emil, Laguta, Ward the level is not great Johansson being an example. Sidney, I said in 1980 he averaged 8.09.. which equates to a 6pter now. In 81, it was 9.71, which equates to about 8-8.5 now. He finished 4th in the World Final. At that point he was still a promising young rider (in the World Title sense). Nobody knew how many titles he would go on to win. As I've pointed out Chris Louis finished 3rd in 1993... he went on to win nothing.. as have many other riders who were touted over the years. Forget your figures mumbo jumbo crap how good was NIelsen/Gundersen? In your opinion please tell me! That's nonsense. I was at Wembley. Gundersen broke the track record, then suffered an engine failure while leading his third ride. He was good enough to be World Champion that year. You're tying yourself in knots, trying to prove something that is true as untrue. The standard of speedway rider in the early eighties was higher than it is now. All the best Rob I said that i was there Gundersen broke the track record, i agree the level was higher than today easily but don't mention the word fact ? to Witcher we both say that it is only our low opinion.!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Tony Rickardsson Jason Crump Greg Hancock Leigh Adams Nicki Pedersen Tomasz Gollob Mark Loram Billy Hamill Sam Ermolenko Jarek Hampel Andreas Jonsson Peter Karlsson Matej Zagar Niels Kristian Iversen Kenneth Bjerre Scott Nicholls Mikael Max Freddie Lindgren Piotr Protasiewicz Hans Andersen Rune Holta Antonio Lindback Chris Louis Ryan Sullivan Gary Havelock Joe Screen Lee Richardson Bjarne Pedersen Krzystof Kasprzak Jesper B Jensen A list of 30 riders all taken from 1 year. Easily comparable with the list from 1981, again with the benefit of history behind some of the names on there. Still to see any argument put forward as to WHY some believe riders from the early 80's were of a higher standard other than they were 'unbeatable'. Now we know this to be false, as many of the riders on the list provided, when it came to the big meets showed they weren't unbeatable.. the cream, as in any era, rises to the top. Hence a select few riders have great World Championship records and others don't. Once again, it all boils down to the format used at the time. The top two riders in a team would almost always score 9-12 pts from 4 riders.. indeed 9 would be deemed as a below par night. Last places were rare, very rare indeed Thus everyone had the impression that they were stars and the difference between the real top boys and those just below wasn't shown up that much... hence creating an impression there were more real 'top boys' than there were. However, that image is dispelled when we translate into World Championship performances where its a much smaller group (the real top boys) that dominate convincingly. Move into the modern era, the notion of riders being night on 'unbeatable' is far, far harder to obtain. Ignoring the format of last year in the EL which makes it harder still, there were two heats, 13 and 15 where in most cases you would have the top 2 riders from each team against each other. In every single meeting there were would be 2 last places to be shared amongst them. It's not long before their air of superiority is tarnished. Exactly the same would have happened had the format been used in the 80's. It's nothing to do with the riders abilities even then or now.. simply the format and the perception it creates. I've said this on another thread too... Maybe we see too much of the top riders racing each other now and take it for granted? Would it help the sport if the format was altered so that they didn't race each other as often, creating more 'big unbeatable stars'? Let's face it, one thing we ALL agree on was back then we would be excited each week because each team had two 'big names' that we rarely saw lose.. It's the format that creates the names, not the riders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillipsr Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 No way is Adams or Gollob better than Pedersen. You might not like him but he is far better. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Ask Norbold? Penhall was a great rider and how many titles could he have won? but I believe as one time winners Lee/Collins were on a par Lee had a decent record with Penhall head to head.Pedersen for me is not in the greats department i know he won three titles ( dirty sod got away with murder a rider bully in my opinion) Adams and Sigalos were better riders than him.But in his era he is behind Rickardsson,Crump,Hancock and Gollob all were better riders but the level is VERY high is today? Without Emil, Laguta, Ward the level is not great Johansson being an example. Forget your figures mumbo jumbo crap how good was NIelsen/Gundersen? In your opinion please tell me! I said that i was there Gundersen broke the track record, i agree the level was higher than today easily but don't mention the word fact ? to Witcher we both say that it is only our low opinion.!! Sidney stop talking nonsense again. In 1981 Nielsen and Gundersen were good riders. Not greats. FACT. If we take your argument, Chris Louis is better than Gundersen as he finished 3rd in his first World Final in 93.. I was there. I saw it, Louis was on the rostrum. Was Gundersen on the rostrum at your meeting? No he wasn't. What happened in later years is an entirely different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
customhouseregular Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Very little I have read on this thread today actually answer the OP question. The answer is...Very good indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Sidney who know your stuff are give you credit for that ...who was better out of Carter and Ashby ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Sidney stop talking nonsense again. In 1981 Nielsen and Gundersen were good riders. Not greats. FACT. If we take your argument, Chris Louis is better than Gundersen as he finished 3rd in his first World Final in 93.. I was there. I saw it, Louis was on the rostrum. Was Gundersen on the rostrum at your meeting? No he wasn't. What happened in later years is an entirely different story. Did i say that please about 81,i did not but they were more than as you say just PROMISING back down my memory i think is better than yours. Nielsen/ Gundersen were more more than just PROMISING riders in 81,not that you watched Speedway that much then?.Simple question even for you were Nielsen/gpGundersen greats yes or no ? a simple question even for you as Lucifer said you are tying yourself in knots the two riders YOU brought up you are making yourself look foolish.Admit defeat you are talking crap about Nielsen/Gundersen did you ever see them at there PEAK.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) A list of 30 riders all taken from 1 year. Easily comparable with the list from 1981, again with the benefit of history behind some of the names on there. Er, but my list of riders from 1981 was taken from riders who could have graced the World Final THAT year. I missed out a whole load of riders who were beyond their best and yet to rise - e.g. Anders Michanek, Malcolm Simmons, Ivan Mauger, Simon Wigg, etc. Whether you like it or not, the level of speedway rider has dropped. Unfortunately, talented youngsters are more likely to take up another sport these days. One which is better paid. Speedway used to me fairly near the top of the totem tree. It's not any more. Some of the third heat-leaders in those years were better than the No 1's are now. Forget averages, because everyone knows it's a different format these days. Instead it has to be judged on ability. These days, we have a top division full of also-rans. Not just the reserves, but often the second strings as well. The standard has fallen. Sad but true, and no matter how long you try to argue black is white. All the best Rob Edited February 8, 2015 by lucifer sam 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) Move into the modern era, the notion of riders being night on 'unbeatable' is far, far harder to obtain. Ignoring the format of last year in the EL which makes it harder still, there were two heats, 13 and 15 where in most cases you would have the top 2 riders from each team against each other. In every single meeting there were would be 2 last places to be shared amongst them. It's not long before their air of superiority is tarnished. Exactly the same would have happened had the format been used in the 80's. It's nothing to do with the riders abilities even then or now.. simply the format and the perception it creates. I've said this on another thread too... Maybe we see too much of the top riders racing each other now and take it for granted? Would it help the sport if the format was altered so that they didn't race each other as often, creating more 'big unbeatable stars'? Let's face it, one thing we ALL agree on was back then we would be excited each week because each team had two 'big names' that we rarely saw lose.. It's the format that creates the names, not the riders. I have made that same point myself in the past. Resort to the old format and all of a sudden you have a 10 pointer in every side. Which also means every team has a full on number one who has an air of invincibility and can be a real hero for the fans. In a way I think the current format makes the league seem weaker. You can see comments quite regularly where people complain it is a weak league because there are no real heatleaders any more. Revert to the old format and suddenly you've got them. Edited February 8, 2015 by grachan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Sidney who know your stuff are give you credit for that ...who was better out of Carter and Ashby ?Did you ever see em saddo? a big No so shut up i won't react to your crap but as i have said before endless people have told me who you are and what a total P... you are so have a think eh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
customhouseregular Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Rose-coloured glasses I know but I could name a dozen riders from the 60's I would rather watch than most of today;s GP stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Ask Norbold? Leave me out of this! Oh, ok, since you've asked..... I think in reality it is impossible to compare riders of different eras and say riders in the 80s were better than riders of today or vice versa, even more so to compare riders from before the War or the 50s and 60s. Personally I can only go on what I have seen from 1960 onwards and on written records and oral testimony from people I have spoken to for pre1960. Just going on my own eyes and riders I have seen, I would always put Ove Fundin at no. 1. I hardly ever saw him race a bad race. He was skillful, determined, ruthless and had that indefinable something that makes a great champion. On his day he could (and did!) beat any and every body. I know riders like Mauger and Rickardsson have had better records since but they didn't have the likes of Briggs, Moore and Craven to contend with, all of whom could well be included in a top 10. And that is, of course, another aspect to this. The opposition. As has been said, in relation to Greg Hancock, although you can't deny his amazing record, he never quite made the heights when Rickardsson, Crump, Pedersen and Gollob were at their peak. Yes, he's 44 now, but where is the opposition? Although I didn't start going to speedway until 1960, some of my family were fanatical speedway supporters already, especially my two uncles, who had been going since before the War. They always maintained that Vic Duggan was the greatest ever. One of those uncles, who is now 91 and still goes to Lakeside occasionally, still mantains that view! And then there was Tom Farndon...... I think it all partly depends on what era you were brought up in and who your own personal heroes were. As the saying goes, there is no right or wrong answer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) Er, but my list of riders from 1981 was taken from riders who could have graced the World Final THAT year. I missed out a whole load of riders who were beyond their best and yet to rise - e.g. Anders Michanek, Malcolm Simmons, Ivan Mauger, Simon Wigg, etc. Whether you like it or not, the level of speedway rider has dropped. Unfortunately, talented youngsters are more likely to take up another sport these days. One which is better paid. Speedway used to me fairly near the top of the totem tree. It's not any more. Some of the third heat-leaders in those years were better than the No 1's are now. Forget averages, because everyone knows it's a different format these days. Instead it has to be judged on ability. These days, we have a top division full of also-rans. Not just the reserves, but often the second strings as well. The standard has fallen. Sad but true, and no matter how long you try to argue black is white. All the best Rob No it hasn't, you haven't yet managed to prove in one way that it has. You keep talking about 'black and white' but are yet to back anything up. You conveniently ignore all the compelling evidence against what you claim, simply because there is no argument against it. You've given 25 riders. I've given you no 24 now as Chris Holder who is well above the standard of the 24th rider on your list. So if we're talking 'black and white' you've lost that particular debate. The overall standard of rider now IS higher. The lower riders are of a far higher standard than in years gone by. Not only that but all sports improve, competitors learn adapt and improve. This has happened in every sport there is from fitness based sports such as athletics through to skill based sports such as Darts and Snooker. The only debate to be had in these matters is the level of success riders had against their peers in their own particular era. Speedway is even worse as the sport was vastly different in 1980 to how it is today. Totally different bikes, different track surfaces, different rules. For you to insist you are right in your assertion that riders were better in the 80's is nonsensical arrogance. As I have said before, you are 100% correct there were more STARS in the 80's. And as I have said many times and quite simply cannot be argued with, that was the result of the system at the time. From reading your comments it seems we're also at cross purposes. I'm not just talking about the British EL, of course that is of a lower standard (by standard I mean in terms of its world standing) than it was in the 80's. However Britiain isn't the only place speedway is raced. The level of professionalism and indeed the overall standard of the top flight in Poland blows that of the 1980's British League away. PS.. to add.. If I had to choose an era to live, re-enjoy, it would have been back then over now too... so please don't think I am knocking the riders of that era! Edited February 8, 2015 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) No it hasn't, you haven't yet managed to prove in one way that it has. You keep talking about 'black and white' but are yet to back anything up. You conveniently ignore all the compelling evidence against what you claim, simply because there is no argument against it. You've given 25 riders. I've given you no 24 now as Chris Holder who is well above the standard of the 24th rider on your list. So if we're talking 'black and white' you've lost that particular debate. The overall standard of rider now IS higher. The lower riders are of a far higher standard than in years gone by. Not only that but all sports improve, competitors learn adapt and improve. This has happened in every sport there is from fitness based sports such as athletics through to skill based sports such as Darts and Snooker. The only debate to be had in these matters is the level of success riders had against their peers in their own particular era. Speedway is even worse as the sport was vastly different in 1980 to how it is today. Totally different bikes, different track surfaces, different rules. For you to insist you are right in your assertion that riders were better in the 80's is nonsensical arrogance. As I have said before, you are 100% correct there were more STARS in the 80's. And as I have said many times and quite simply cannot be argued with, that was the result of the system at the time. From reading your comments it seems we're also at cross purposes. I'm not just talking about the British EL, of course that is of a lower standard (by standard I mean in terms of its world standing) than it was in the 80's. However Britiain isn't the only place speedway is raced. The level of professionalism and indeed the overall standard of the top flight in Poland blows that of the 1980's British League away. PS.. to add.. If I had to choose an era to live, re-enjoy, it would have been back then over now too... so please don't think I am knocking the riders of that era! I have seen it from the late 60s have you? Sam also knows his era's longer than me ? i dont know and is making you look a mug.A simple question i have asked you maybe three times? were Nielsen/GundersenLegends? Border lining on the top 20 ever Yes or NO?a simple question!!!!! Edited February 8, 2015 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 I have seen it from the late 60s have you? Sam also knows his era's longer than me ? i dont know and is making you look a mug.A simple question i have asked you maybe three times? were Nielsen/GundersenLegends? Border lining on the top 20 ever Yes or NO?a simple question!!!!! Of course they are legends. They weren't legends in 1981, which is what we were discussing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) Did you ever see em saddo? a big No so shut up i won't react to your crap but as i have said before endless people have told me who you are and what a total P... you are so have a think eh! Who are these endless people .? why don't you name them and I will go and ask them ...I have the feeling a coward like you is not going to able to . Edited February 8, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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