Mark Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 You have to be really good to win more than one world title, he is obviously very popular with everyone in the sport, a really nice person but I wouldn't go out of my way to watch him race. His longevity is based on playing it safe. If every rider rode the same way as Greg Hancock the sport would be boring. If he misses the gate then he 99% settles for where he sits in the race. This post will get criticism from Greg's die hard fans but its just my opinion. If we had 15 Greg's in the GP there would be nothing to talk about. We will miss Nicki and Gollob more than we'll miss Greg when they are all retired. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Not only is Greg boring and has a fake grin he rode for O*ford and Reading .Are you serious? or is it a tongue in cheek comment.? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 No you wouldn't come up with 25 worthy World Finalists. 1981: Bruce Penhall Ole Olsen Tommy Knudsen Erik Gundersen Kenny Carter Jan Andersson Egon Muller Dave Jessup Hans Nielsen Michael Lee Chris Morton Larry Ross Dennis Sigalos Kelly Moran Bo Petersen Bobby Schwartz Billy Sanders Phil Crump Les Collins Gordon Kennett John Davis Edward Jancarz Zenon Plech Shawn Moran Peter Collins All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Are you serious? or is it a tongue in cheek comment.? Are break it down ....is Greg Boring ? yes. Has he got a fake Grin ? yes . Did he ride for O*ford yes . Did he ride Reading yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) No you wouldn't come up with 25 worthy World Finalists. You'd have a list, who apart from the top boys, would be full of riders of a lesser level who looked great because they were riding in a weak format and whom you rarely saw get beat. Schwartz would waltz into the GP's? Why would he? Based upon? He got a maximum in a World Pairs Final? That means he won 3 races of note in one meeting.. i.e. beating the Danes, English and the Aussies.. although you could only really call Sanders top class of the Aussie pair (Gary Guglielmi the other). The Finns, New Zealand and the Czechs.. nothing to write home about by beating them. As for the World Team Final... boy what a tough meeting that was! What with the mighty West Germany and Czechoslovakia being two of the four teams. You can just as easily point out storming meetings that riders such as Martin Vaculik, Bartosz Zmarlik, Troy Batchelor and Martin Smolinski have had in major events... none of them you would class as being amongst the 'big names'.... boy its tough these days... an EL reserve can win a GP less than 1 year later Back in those days you could finish joint 1st in a World Final without even racing in Europe, and having only had 1 years experience prior... That would never, ever happen now. The standard then was higher whatever you say,no doubt in my mind,and a rider like Schwartz now would have a field day in the EL.The GP series this year for example is missing at least three top class riders Emil,Laguta,Ward so this year is not the strongest like some of the one off finals.In my opinion Mauger,Briggs,Fundin would of won more titles in a GP format and looking at it NIelsen he could of won at least 8 world titles.?The one off final was harder to win in my opinion real pressure tough qualifying rounds and it took a different quality to win it so dont underestimate how tough it was. 1981: Bruce Penhall Ole Olsen Tommy Knudsen Erik Gundersen Kenny Carter Jan Andersson Egon Muller Dave Jessup Hans Nielsen Michael Lee Chris Morton Larry Ross Dennis Sigalos Kelly Moran Bo Petersen Bobby Schwartz Billy Sanders Phil Crump Les Collins Gordon Kennett John Davis Edward Jancarz Zenon Plech Shawn Moran Peter Collins All the best Rob Pretty good,fifteen world championship title wins in amongst that lot. Edited February 6, 2015 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 The standard then was higher whatever you say,no doubt in my mind,and a rider like Schwartz now would have a field day in the EL.The GP series this year for example is missing at least three top class riders Emil,Laguta,Ward so this year is not the strongest like some of the one off finals.In my opinion Mauger,Briggs,Fundin would of won more titles in a GP format and looking at it NIelsen he could of won at least 8 world titles.?The one off final was harder to win in my opinion real pressure tough qualifying rounds and it took a different quality to win it so dont underestimate how tough it was. It wasn't. The standard was considerably lower. Riders could roll up to a meeting with a bike on the back of a car and score well. Chances of doing that now, virtually non existent. Heat leaders had it easy. Decent riders were made to look like stars simply by the format. A rider such as Troy Batchelor would have been a 10pt rider in those days just as Schwartz was. Someone like Rory Schlein would have been a 9pter and so on. As said, the World Final was so tough you could not even race in Europe, fly in for the meets and finish joint 1st. This is one of the reasons why the Brits have lagged behind.. we're still very much in the patter of the 80's in terms of professionalism. The Polish League wipes the floor with anything the British League has ever had in terms of depth. 1981: Bruce Penhall Ole Olsen Tommy Knudsen Erik Gundersen Kenny Carter Jan Andersson Egon Muller Dave Jessup Hans Nielsen Michael Lee Chris Morton Larry Ross Dennis Sigalos Kelly Moran Bo Petersen Bobby Schwartz Billy Sanders Phil Crump Les Collins Gordon Kennett John Davis Edward Jancarz Zenon Plech Shawn Moran Peter Collins All the best Rob Put 16 of those into a GP, and the rest of them into a format like the Elite League is now, you wouldn't be thinking over half of them were all that good. The John Davis's of the world would be around, or below Chris Harris level. It's the format of the leagues you see the riders race in that dictates how many 'star' riders there are.. Far more than the talent itself. This is why, then, just as it is now, you have a select group of riders who in each era stand out from the pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Surely Gundersen has to be in there somewhere. If we're limiting it to ten, I would go for: Fundin Mauger Nielsen Briggs Gundersen Rickardsson Craven Moore Olsen Penhall Crump, Hancock and Pedersen, along with Young, Duggan, Wilkinson and Collins, would come in the next sub-group in positions 11-17. All the best Rob Indeed. Fundin used to put "Norwich Track Spare No 2" on the back of his bikes as a bit of kidology. All the best Rob crump for me is the best of the three times world champs, on the basis of his 10 consecutive rostrum finishes.the thing with eric is that he was probably only the best rider in the world in one season. And arguably would have won less world titles if the likes of penhall lee sigalos hadnt been lost to the sport.against that, he may well have won more but for hid injury. Tbh I could place him anywhere 7th-14th depending on the day, id say he was my number 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 It wasn't. The standard was considerably lower. Riders could roll up to a meeting with a bike on the back of a car and score well. Chances of doing that now, virtually non existent. Heat leaders had it easy. Decent riders were made to look like stars simply by the format. A rider such as Troy Batchelor would have been a 10pt rider in those days just as Schwartz was. Someone like Rory Schlein would have been a 9pter and so on. As said, the World Final was so tough you could not even race in Europe, fly in for the meets and finish joint 1st. This is one of the reasons why the Brits have lagged behind.. we're still very much in the patter of the 80's in terms of professionalism. The Polish League wipes the floor with anything the British League has ever had in terms of depth. Put 16 of those into a GP, and the rest of them into a format like the Elite League is now, you wouldn't be thinking over half of them were all that good. The John Davis's of the world would be around, or below Chris Harris level. It's the format of the leagues you see the riders race in that dictates how many 'star' riders there are.. Far more than the talent itself. This is why, then, just as it is now, you have a select group of riders who in each era stand out from the pack. Nonsense and i did not select that group but it was a pretty good one.But everyone is entitled to THERE OPINION right! so what you have said is not FACT so please don't mention that word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Nonsense and i did not select that group but it was a pretty good one.But everyone is entitled to THERE OPINION right! so what you have said is not FACT so please don't mention that word. It's not nonsense. The standard then was lower, there's no argument about that. The sport is far more professional now, any old rider will tell you that. That doesn't mean to say riders from then wouldn't be able to compete now, most would adapt.. some wouldn't. The same goes in reverse. The group is fine, no different to selecting a top 25 from pretty much any other year.. What it has the benefit of is history.. You look at the names of Hans Nielsen and Erik Gundersen in that group and you think a lot more highly of them now than you would have in 1981 when they were good promising youngsters. It also has its selection of 2nd and 3rd tier riders. Decent in their own right, but never a threat to the real top guys on a consistent basis... again just like any other era. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 It's not nonsense. The standard then was lower, there's no argument about that. The sport is far more professional now, any old rider will tell you that. That doesn't mean to say riders from then wouldn't be able to compete now, most would adapt.. some wouldn't. The same goes in reverse. The group is fine, no different to selecting a top 25 from pretty much any other year.. What it has the benefit of is history.. You look at the names of Hans Nielsen and Erik Gundersen in that group and you think a lot more highly of them now than you would have in 1981 when they were good promising youngsters. It also has its selection of 2nd and 3rd tier riders. Decent in their own right, but never a threat to the real top guys on a consistent basis... again just like any other era. Your comment about Erik/Hans is a strange one at that time they were both learning there craft paying there dues also Nielsen at that time was picked by some to win a title so he at the time was more than just promising.Those two as examples would of found the Gps an easy experience now,semis most meeting's finalists regular a different pressure but an easier one in my opinion as a mistake in one round now is not terminal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Your comment about Erik/Hans is a strange one at that time they were both learning there craft paying there dues also Nielsen at that time was picked by some to win a title so he at the time was more than just promising.Those two as examples would of found the Gps an easy experience now,semis most meeting's finalists regular a different pressure but an easier one in my opinion as a mistake in one round now is not terminal. No it isn't strange for precisely the reason you have given. In 1981 nobody would have rated Gundersen and Nielsen as highly as they are rated now. They were promising yes, but hadn't yet won any World Titles. Yes of course those two would have found GP's easy. They found the World Finals easy as well. You talk about there being more depth in 1981.. Chris Holder was 24th in the Swedish League Averages last year. Hans Andersen 34th... In Poland Troy Batchelor is 40th in the averages. There is just as much depth now in World Speedway. Edited February 6, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 No it isn't strange for precisely the reason you have given. In 1981 nobody would have rated Gundersen and Nielsen as highly as they are rated now. They were promising yes, but hadn't yet won any World Titles. Yes of course those two would have found GP's easy. They found the World Finals easy as well. You talk about there being more depth in 1981.. Chris Holder was 24th in the Swedish League Averages last year. Hans Andersen 34th... In Poland Troy Batchelor is 40th in the averages. There is just as much depth now in World Speedway. You are right but have a look at our old BL that was the envy of the world at one time riders like Penhall as a example new they had to ride over here to be world class.The level then was very high, ok not as professional Mauger changed that but the league racing here was in a very healthy state talent wise.As a example Belle Vue one year had Mauger,Pusey,Sjosten,Collins, as a spine of the team now we are just an afterthought for most top riders.Going back to Nielsen/Gundersen most of us could see they were going to be great riders ,at that time Nielsen was even tipped up to go very well in 1980 in the Lee year.The GPS is an enjoyable event to watch, but some of those past greats would of won more titles in that format.Because for me to win a one off final was harder to do than win over a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) This thread has become similar to this one : http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=78379 When judging the best of any given year, one must consider the strength of the opposition Mention was made earlier of champions who only had one bike and had a day job, or won on the track spare - if they weren't "professional" how "professional" was the opposition Compared with the current situation, the champions are very professional, so too are the bulk of riders around the top leagues So, how do you compare eras? Not easily I can only assess those I've seen, and my 10 were : 1 Nielsen 2 Mauger 3 Fundin 4 Rickardsson 5 Penhall 6 Briggs 7 Gundersen 8 Craven 9 Lee 10 Knutsson and, in answer the the thread question, my view is that Hancock, whilst very very good, is not superior to these champions Edited February 7, 2015 by Midland Red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommelier Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Sidney, how do you think Olsen would have done in the GP format ? I dread to think how good Mauger would have been in the GP format! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 This thread has become similar to this one : http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=78379 When judging the best of any given year, one must consider the strength of the opposition Mention was made earlier of champions who only had one bike and had a day job, or won on the track spare - if they weren't "professional" how "professional" was the opposition Compared with the current situation, the champions are very professional, so too are the bulk of riders around the top leagues So, how do you compare eras? Not easily I can only assess those I've seen, and my 10 were : 1 Nielsen 2 Mauger 3 Fundin 4 Rickardsson 5 Penhall 6 Briggs 7 Gundersen 8 Craven 9 Lee 10 Knutsson and, in answer the the thread question, my view is that Hancock, whilst very very good, is not superior to these champions Bit unfair to rate Lee + Knutson higher than Greg imo.No big fan of his and wouldn't rate him that highly in the all time greats of the sport.It is though I guess that exciting riders will get rated higher than so called boring riders of a similar standard.We pay to be entertained and for me riders like Hancock don't give me value for money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
customhouseregular Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 I am somewhat surprised at some of the anti-Hancock sentiment being shown. He is a really nice person, or seems to be, a triple WC with a GP record almost impossible to beat and the fact he has avoided serious injury for 20 years is no accident (excuse the pun). He knows what to do and when to do it which puts him right up there in my opinion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 You are right but have a look at our old BL that was the envy of the world at one time riders like Penhall as a example new they had to ride over here to be world class.The level then was very high, ok not as professional Mauger changed that but the league racing here was in a very healthy state talent wise.As a example Belle Vue one year had Mauger,Pusey,Sjosten,Collins, as a spine of the team now we are just an afterthought for most top riders.Going back to Nielsen/Gundersen most of us could see they were going to be great riders ,at that time Nielsen was even tipped up to go very well in 1980 in the Lee year.The GPS is an enjoyable event to watch, but some of those past greats would of won more titles in that format.Because for me to win a one off final was harder to do than win over a season. You're defeating your argument somewhat by saying how many more titles would have been won by certain riders in the past if there had been a GP format. I thought it was meant to be sooo much tougher because of all the greats around? As I've said over and over, in every era you have your handful of standouts who will dominate... then there will be a tier below who on the day can beat them, but not regularly... then a 3rd tier below that etc. The old 13 heat format made the 3rd tier riders look almost as good as the very top tier, when the reality is and was they weren't close. The British League v current Elite League argument is irrelevant, in the context of the day of course the British League was stronger then as most of the worlds top riders rode here. That is why it can only be compared to either the Polish or Swedish Leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 You're defeating your argument somewhat by saying how many more titles would have been won by certain riders in the past if there had been a GP format. I thought it was meant to be sooo much tougher because of all the greats around? As I've said over and over, in every era you have your handful of standouts who will dominate... then there will be a tier below who on the day can beat them, but not regularly... then a 3rd tier below that etc. The old 13 heat format made the 3rd tier riders look almost as good as the very top tier, when the reality is and was they weren't close. The British League v current Elite League argument is irrelevant, in the context of the day of course the British League was stronger then as most of the worlds top riders rode here. That is why it can only be compared to either the Polish or Swedish Leagues. Good points,but you were totally wrong about Nielsen/Gundersen in 81,at that point they were more than just promising riders as i said Nielsen had been quietly fancied to ride well at Gothenburg Gundersen at Wembley( did he break the track record that year?) Sidney, how do you think Olsen would have done in the GP format ? I dread to think how good Mauger would have been in the GP format! 'sommelier' Olsen who only won three titles was twice the rider of a modern day Pedersen better than Nielsen in my opinion and he was a great to.Olsen had everything a great style smooth, he was tough could gate and come from the back.And often underestimated was a great team man rider helped loads of young riders over the years.Out of the greats he only won three titles but he was better than that, he was one of the few who could beat a peak PC at Hyde Rd at his pomp and PC then was buzzing nearly unbeatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommelier Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Good points,but you were totally wrong about Nielsen/Gundersen in 81,at that point they were more than just promising riders as i said Nielsen had been quietly fancied to ride well at Gothenburg Gundersen at Wembley( did he break the track record that year?) 'sommelier' Olsen who only won three titles was twice the rider of a modern day Pedersen better than Nielsen in my opinion and he was a great to.Olsen had everything a great style smooth, he was tough could gate and come from the back.And often underestimated was a great team man rider helped loads of young riders over the years.Out of the greats he only won three titles but he was better than that, he was one of the few who could beat a peak PC at Hyde Rd at his pomp and PC then was buzzing nearly unbeatable. Was you watching speedway at Swindon when Fin Thompson was ther ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Good points,but you were totally wrong about Nielsen/Gundersen in 81,at that point they were more than just promising riders as i said Nielsen had been quietly fancied to ride well at Gothenburg Gundersen at Wembley( did he break the track record that year?) 'sommelier' Olsen who only won three titles was twice the rider of a modern day Pedersen better than Nielsen in my opinion and he was a great to.Olsen had everything a great style smooth, he was tough could gate and come from the back.And often underestimated was a great team man rider helped loads of young riders over the years.Out of the greats he only won three titles but he was better than that, he was one of the few who could beat a peak PC at Hyde Rd at his pomp and PC then was buzzing nearly unbeatable. No I'm not. In 1980 Gundersen averaged 8.09 (including bonus), equivalent to about a 6pt average now at best, so going into 81 he was as I described, a young promising rider. In 81 he began to establish himself, lifting average to 9.71, finishing 4th in World FInal. However, he was still one who 'may' go on to be champion. There have been many riders who have not fulfilled their potential. As for your comments about PC and Olsen...what you still aren't grasping is ALL the no 1's were 'nearly unbeatable' as they rarely raced each other. It's no evidence at all they were better than riders from a later era. Of course they were good riders, but being 'nearly unbeatable' in the league was simply beating up on lower riders than themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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