What The Visa Issues Could Mean For Teams.

[foamfence]

Do you think if Ward Holder or Hancock had been World champ and racing in the EL, they would have banned them?........well probable, I presume as others have said, they will apply the same rules for other sports, the worst being F1, cricket, football , rugby (both codes) I could go on and on.......sport in the uk will take so much of a hammering

I think the rules would apply to them just the same. Those issuing visas won't even have heard of them.

[771neil]

Think people need to stop blaming riders or boarder agency if clubs had done nothing wrong then boarder agency could impose ban and how do we know that ice hockey, football and all of sports/businesses are checked or not checked as I m pretty sure speedway was way down the list to check when agency was started checking firms. It probably happens every day just we don t hear about it cause it doesn't affect us. Hope they sort it but not looking good.

[spin king]

Well after reading the latest press release things sound a bit more promising, with Agency agreeing to work alongside the clubs in getting the visa right.

 

This is something that has been brewing up for sometime where we have seen a selection of riders unable to ride due visa applications been turned down and it looks like the agency has finally taken a stand to get this mess sort out once and for all.

 

The loss of the Aussie rider would have been a hammer blow for the sport in this country, they are the one speedway nation that has been loyal to British speedway and stuck with us more than any other speedway nation.

 

But it looks as though clubs have been given a clear message, stop looking for the loopholes do it by the book and things will not be a problem.

[Tsunami]

Interesting that I'm just reading an article about Arsenal attempting to sign a player called Paulista who requires a work permit - which has been refused by the FA as he doesn't meet to required criteria for a work permit. This is a player rated at 6 million pound allegedly.

 

It says the FA act on behalf of the home office, just like the BSPA do - however they dish out work permit willy nilly it seems.

I'm going over to the Elite League Thread' shortly. You coming.

 

There is still foreign crap in the lower leagues legally.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Tsunami

[me2]

The clubs have been stretching the rules. They should have been complying to the letter and they've brought this shambles on themselves.

However, it's reassuring that the guardians of our borders are on the ball and a minibus crammed with Aussie Speedway riders has been busted. Considering the authorities haven't a scoobie how many people are in the country illegally, it's good to know they can take time out from rounding up those countless thousands of illegals to make sure a near bankrupt sport, whose combined weekly support wouldn't fill a non league football ground isn't taking liberties with the rules. We should be thankful their priorities are in order.

If I had a hat, I'd take it off to them.

[Humphrey Appleby]

However, it's reassuring that the guardians of our borders are on the ball and a minibus crammed with Aussie Speedway riders has been busted. Considering the authorities haven't a scoobie how many people are in the country illegally, it's good to know they can take time out from rounding up those countless thousands of illegals to make sure a near bankrupt sport, whose combined weekly support wouldn't fill a non league football ground isn't taking liberties with the rules.

 

The fact that speedway doesn't contribute much to the economy is even less reason to be lax. I'm sure many Indian restaurants are on the margins of existence and rely on cheap (and sometimes illegal) cooks, but they don't get much sympathy from those demanding that government get tough on immigration. Once again, illegals are not really relevant to this discussion because they are by definition working illegally, whereas speedway riders are fairly visible sportspersons about whom the question can quite easily be asked whether they're world class in their field.

Maybe the immigration authorities should also question how the Polish Speedway authorities can stop Polish riders racing in UK.The licence issue sounds like an excuse because surely there is supposed to be free movement of workers within the EU.

 

There's nothing to stop Polish riders racing in the UK if they only want to ride in the UK. Presumably its their contracts with their more lucrative Polish teams that restrict this, or the terms of their Polish licenses that state they have to give priority to Polish meetings.

 

There's nothing to say that an employer has to allow you to work for another employer at the same time. If you don't like it you can always resign.

Think their aim (UKIP) is to take us out of the EU to stop our borders being open to the EU migrants who come here claiming Unemployment, child & all the other benefits they can claim. Never mind the strain on the NHS & Education system. And lastly to stop all the billions paid into the EU every year.

 

And you don't think foreign speedway riders also put a burden on our healthcare system when they get injured?

 

UKIP wants to restrict all immigration, not just from the EU, which is also something popular with many of those who don't vote UKIP. The current government has responded by promising to reduce immigration, so is cracking down on just about every sector (especially education which generates billions for the UK economy). People are now getting what they asked for, and yet somehow at the same time think speedway should get some sort of special treatment.

 

If UKIP gets its way and gets restrictions on EU migrants, then expect far more of this border bureacrazy in speedway.

Thing is though CC, it's not an immigration thing as HA and others would have you believe. With sportsmen, it is the right to play their sport to add quality to the sport. Footballers like Diego Costa, Suarez, Courtois, Alexis Sanchez, etc, are not emigrating into the UK, and in the same way, speedway riders should be treat in the same way, and accepted as being transient sportsmen not immigrants.

 

Of course it's an immigration thing, otherwise it wouldn't be dealt with by the UK Immigration Department. You could also argue that potato pickers and sheep shearers are also seasonal transient workers who don't intend to remain in the UK, but they're still affected by all of this.

 

I'd fully agree that elite actors, entertainers and sportspersons represent something of a special case when it comes to work permits, which is why there's always been specific rules for these categories of employment. However, the decisions should be based around whether a sportsperson is truly a top-flight performer, whether people will specifically pay to watch them perform, and how much value their industry adds to the UK economy.

 

That there's a load of dross playing in the lower tiers of the Football League is not really an argument in favour of letting speedway do what it wants. The top four football divisions sit at the top of a huge pyramid of thousands of clubs that's fully or semi-professional down to at least the 9th or 10th level. I suspect the number of work permit players represents a tiny percentage of all professional footballers in the UK, whereas the National League in speedway is more equivalent to the Northern Alliance or Wearside League in football. 22 riders out of 200-odd professional riders is over 10%, and many are not riding at the elite level.

 

No-one would disagree that Australians are usually good value for money, and it's extremely unfortunate for those caught up in all of this. I think it's very arguable from a work permit perspective though, that a British rider couldn't be found to do the job of a sub-6 point rider in the sport's second tier, far less third tier. Of course such a strict interpretation puts the likes of Newcastle and Edinburgh (amongst others) in a difficult situation, but that's the case with many struggling businesses in the UK that rely on immigrant labour.

[Najjer]

I'm going over to the Elite League Thread' shortly. You coming.

 

There is still foreign crap in the lower leagues legally.

What's your point? There are Aussies over here for speedway that shouldn't be probably. Edited January 23, 2015 by Najjer

[peterborough daz]

I will be done with the sport if any if the teams like my own who have named 6 Brits have to be dismantled due to this.

[TheScotsman]

I will be done with the sport if any if the teams like my own who have named 6 Brits have to be dismantled due to this.

Okaydoke

[Tsunami]

 

Of course it's an immigration thing, otherwise it wouldn't be dealt with by the UK Immigration Department. You could also argue that potato pickers and sheep shearers are also seasonal transient workers who don't intend to remain in the UK, but they're still affected by all of this.

 

I'd fully agree that elite actors, entertainers and sportspersons represent something of a special case when it comes to work permits, which is why there's always been specific rules for these categories of employment. However, the decisions should be based around whether a sportsperson is truly a top-flight performer, whether people will specifically pay to watch them perform, and how much value their industry adds to the UK economy.

 

That there's a load of dross playing in the lower tiers of the Football League is not really an argument in favour of letting speedway do what it wants. The top four football divisions sit at the top of a huge pyramid of thousands of clubs that's fully or semi-professional down to at least the 9th or 10th level. I suspect the number of work permit players represents a tiny percentage of all professional footballers in the UK, whereas the National League in speedway is more equivalent to the Northern Alliance or Wearside League in football. 22 riders out of 200-odd professional riders is over 10%, and many are not riding at the elite level.

 

No-one would disagree that Australians are usually good value for money, and it's extremely unfortunate for those caught up in all of this. I think it's very arguable from a work permit perspective though, that a British rider couldn't be found to do the job of a sub-6 point rider in the sport's second tier, far less third tier. Of course such a strict interpretation puts the likes of Newcastle and Edinburgh (amongst others) in a difficult situation, but that's the case with many struggling businesses in the UK that rely on immigrant labour.

 

 

What's your point? There are Aussies over here for speedway that shouldn't be probably.

Seems like others agree about work permit dross in lower football leagues. Except you of course. (See Arson's link below.)

 

Of course in any selection process there is a risk of failure by the individual, but again as HA says "they are usually good value".

Edited January 23, 2015 by Tsunami

[Arson fire]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/fa-intends-to-close-work-permit-loophole-to-protect-english-talent-9976354.html

 

 

Everywhere is closing loopholes up it seems.

[waiheke1]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/fa-intends-to-close-work-permit-loophole-to-protect-english-talent-9976354.html

 

 

Everywhere is closing loopholes up it seems.

would stuff any kiwis wanting to play in the uk.

assume it would mean the likes of winston reid and chris wood would be unlikely to get visas renewed.

 

In a non sporting context, the professional body I belong to sent out a letter regarding the tighter criteria for kiwis wantinng to work in the uk, though saying chsnces wrre still good as "highly skilled."

 

Of course I yhink most of those who say uk immigration should be severely tightened have no issues with kiwis/aussies working in the uk, its more directed at those who are "visibly" immigrants or are non native english speakers (just as in nz the anti immigration brigade couldn't care less about poms coming in, its the likes of asians, somalians and to a lesser extent pacific islanders that are targeted).

[Tsunami]

 

Of course it's an immigration thing, otherwise it wouldn't be dealt with by the UK Immigration Department. You could also argue that potato pickers and sheep shearers are also seasonal transient workers who don't intend to remain in the UK, but they're still affected by all of this.

I accept that.

 

I'd fully agree that elite actors, entertainers and sportspersons represent something of a special case when it comes to work permits, which is why there's always been specific rules for these categories of employment. However, the decisions should be based around whether a sportsperson is truly a top-flight performer, whether people will specifically pay to watch them perform, and how much value their industry adds to the UK economy.

 

Agree with the special cases. Whether someone can't come in unless they are truly world class is highly dubious, given work permit conditions for other professions, Football, Ice Hockey, etc. We are desperately short of riders, hence the reliance on foreign riders and D/U and D/D. Foreign riders from OZ cannot be deemed World Class just based on the few low key meetings in OZ. They have to show promise, and then be given the chance to mature as riders in something like our league structure, or another major speedway country. Doing that we are making world class performers, who people would specifically pay to watch and see the progression. if they don't, they go home. if there is too many of them that stifle the progress or placement of British riders, then the number is reduced as you should the same with any other profession.

 

That there's a load of dross playing in the lower tiers of the Football League is not really an argument in favour of letting speedway do what it wants. The top four football divisions sit at the top of a huge pyramid of thousands of clubs that's fully or semi-professional down to at least the 9th or 10th level. I suspect the number of work permit players represents a tiny percentage of all professional footballers in the UK, whereas the National League in speedway is more equivalent to the Northern Alliance or Wearside League in football. 22 riders out of 200-odd professional riders is over 10%, and many are not riding at the elite level.

Agree with that statement, but I can't see where I said I was in favour to justify speedway doing what it wants. My point was the football, with the dross in lower league, seems to have too low, and too broad, qualification requirements to play over here. They hardly bring people through the door, and as you imply below, there is a better case in football for them to be removed, and Brits move up a few notches and play at a higher lever. I believe, given the ratio of foreign players in our football leagues, especially the PL, that proposals are being considered to reduce our foreign percentage to a given norm to protect the strength of our National team and structure. See link in Arson's post above.

 

No-one would disagree that Australians are usually good value for money, and it's extremely unfortunate for those caught up in all of this. I think it's very arguable from a work permit perspective though, that a British rider couldn't be found to do the job of a sub-6 point rider in the sport's second tier, far less third tier. Of course such a strict interpretation puts the likes of Newcastle and Edinburgh (amongst others) in a difficult situation, but that's the case with many struggling businesses in the UK that rely on immigrant labour.

Don't agree, as if they were there now surely it would have been more viable to stick with them and let them matte and develop. It it was true we wouldn't need D/U and D/D and we could run squad systems. But the problem has been identified at last, and there is a lot of things going on to get Brit riders more opportunities and support. It could be too late though.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Tsunami

[Najjer]

Wasn't Ty Proctor signing for Sheffield in place of Adam Roynon mid season last year, the one that originally rocked the boat? This has been brewing since then, hence the BSPA clamping down on the 5.00 average and not a 7.00. Seems it was a little too late as they were still too lapse in other areas.

[Roger MARTIN]

Immigration, visa's, .. whatever. The thing is, this is only happening because theres an election soon, The British people have voiced their opinion, and the government are trying to show that they are doing something about it.... Only in a very "PC" way, because they don't want to offend the wrong people who have human rights.

Another thing, speedway at premier level cant afford the "elite" so fill their team with equal ability riders, to match. So some of these quotes of riders having to be this and that are all wrong. I would'nt mind an all british team, but there aint enough British riders to go around, so we need them as much as they need us. If they contribute to the system then whats all the fuss about.

 

What we haven't got enough rider to make one all British team ?

[Humphrey Appleby]

Of course I yhink most of those who say uk immigration should be severely tightened have no issues with kiwis/aussies working in the uk, its more directed at those who are "visibly" immigrants or are non native english speakers (just as in nz the anti immigration brigade couldn't care less about poms coming in, its the likes of asians, somalians and to a lesser extent pacific islanders that are targeted).

 

It's not an issue because there's hardly any Kiwis in the UK (something like 50K) and most have recent British ancestry. Equally though, no-one complains about all the Irish, Germans and Yanks in the UK, despite them being the first, fourth and fifth largest group of immigrants respectively. It's mainly those who speak funny or have coloured skin that people have difficulty with.

 

Australia is a bit different to NZ though, as you can't really make assumptions about the ethnic origin of an Australian these days. There's now lots of Australian citizens who were Indians, Chinese, Indonesians, Pacific Islanders and the like, so they not only do they not have a British background, but are not necessarily native English speakers either. Moreover, Australia does not give Brits any special privileges when it comes to immigration (although it is easier for us once you're actually in the country - e.g. UK driving licences are recognised), so can't really expect special treatment in return.

 

I personally think there should be freedom of movement between the UK, Australia and New Zealand because economic levels are similar and immigration tends to balance out, but no politician is going to be advocating that in the current anti-immigrant climate. There's no doubt this crackdown on speedway is the authorities being seen to be 'getting tough on immigration', because they've also been doing it in sectors that are far more valuable to the UK economy.

[BWitcher]

I'm going over to the Elite League Thread' shortly. You coming.

 

There is still foreign crap in the lower leagues legally.

 

So there isn't an issue.

 

Thankyou for admitting that and rendering your whole point null and void.

 

"Legally" is the key word you used there.

 

You are still banging on about the number of work permit players in the lower leagues. I've asked you to name some, you've not managed to name one as yet... I wonder why that is?

Edited January 23, 2015 by BWitcher

[Roger MARTIN]

would stuff any kiwis wanting to play in the uk.

assume it would mean the likes of winston reid and chris wood would be unlikely to get visas renewed.

 

In a non sporting context, the professional body I belong to sent out a letter regarding the tighter criteria for kiwis wantinng to work in the uk, though saying chsnces wrre still good as "highly skilled."

 

Of course I yhink most of those who say uk immigration should be severely tightened have no issues with kiwis/aussies working in the uk, its more directed at those who are "visibly" immigrants or are non native english speakers (just as in nz the anti immigration brigade couldn't care less about poms coming in, its the likes of asians, somalians and to a lesser extent pacific islanders that are targeted).

 

To be honest I don't think its about stopping anyone coming into this Country, its about employers understanding the rules, and it looks like the people running Speedway teams in this Country, don't understand them, and it looks like from now they will need to understand them, it seems that a dog is not just for xmas, applies to Speedway riders from none EU Countries, you may think you have him for one year, but it all depends on how long the riders Visa last for, if its a three year one, then your stuck with him, unless you let them know, and re-apply to change it.

[Humphrey Appleby]

=They hardly bring people through the door, and as you imply below, there is a better case in football for them to be removed, and Brits move up a few notches and play at a higher lever. I believe, given the ratio of foreign players in our football leagues, especially the PL, that proposals are being considered to reduce our foreign percentage to a given norm to protect the strength of our National team and structure. See link in Arson's post above.

Average attendance in League 2 is 4,500, which I suspect every BEL track would die for. In fact, there's the odd team in the Northern League round your way that probably draw crowds not far off some BEL teams these days.

 

The issue of the national team is more a problem with the top flight, because I'm sure how many England internationals really come through the lower leagues these days.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby

[Grachan]

Immigration, visa's, .. whatever. The thing is, this is only happening because theres an election soon, The British people have voiced their opinion, and the government are trying to show that they are doing something about it.... Only in a very "PC" way, because they don't want to offend the wrong people who have human rights.

i'll be honest. At first I was cynical about this whole thing, and wondered if nothing would get sorted until after the General Election as it was just a ruse to help doctor immigration figures.

 

But more and more breaches of the immigration rules have been flagged up by people - particularly on the thread in Speedway Dicussions - and, if correct, it seems the BSPA have brought this upon themselves.