What The Visa Issues Could Mean For Teams.

[doners1234]

 

I've seen the Edit Tsunami.

 

I've also been through every single squad in the entirety of Division 2, you can do so on Wikipedia if you wish, it's freely available information. It lists their nationality. The results are below.

 

Accrington Stanley 15 English, 2 Scottish, 5 Irish

AFC Wimbledon 27 English, 2 Irish

Burton Albion 18 English, 2 Scottish, 2 Dutch, 1 Irish, 1 Australian (possible Work permit!)

Bury 16 English, 2 Scots, 3 Welsh, 1 Nigerian

Cambridge Utd 24 English, 1 Irish, 1 Italian, 1 Scot, 1 Australian (qualifies as lived in UK since a child)

Carlisle 20 English, 1 Scot, 2 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Ghana (in England since a child, no permit needed), 1 Montserrat (English born so no permit needed)

Cheltenham 21 English, 2 Irish, 1 Welsh

Dagenham & Redbridge 19 English, 2 Irish, 1 Scot, 1 Trinidad and Tobago (Born in England, no permit needed)

Exeter 17 English, 2 Welsh, 4 Irish, 1 Scot

Hartlepool 27 English

Luton Town 26 English, 2 Welsh, 2 Irish, 1 Nigerian (moved to England when 18 months old, no permit needed)

Mansfield 22 English, 1 Bermuda (in England since a child), 1 Australian (moved to England as a child), 1 Swiss

Morecambe 21 English, 3 Irish, 1 Welsh

Newport County 15 English, 5 Welsh, 3 Irish

Northampton Town 17 English, 1 Scot, 2 Irish

Oxford United 23 English, 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 New Zealand (moved to England as a child)

Plymouth 25 English, 1 Irish

Portsmouth 23 English, 1 Austrian, 1 French, 1 Ghana (born in England)

Shrewsbury 17 English, 2 Irish, 1 French, 1 Australian (work permit guy perhaps!!)

Southend 18 English, 6 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Dane, 1 Antigua (born in England)

Stevenage 22 English, 1 Irish, 1 French, 1 Congo (moved to England as a child)

Tranmere Rovers 21 English, 1 Slovakian, 3 Welsh, 1 Scot, 1 Nigerian (moved to England as a child), 1 Sierra Leone (moved to England as a child), 1 St Lucia (moved to England as a child)

Wycombe 16 English, 1 Scot, 2 Welsh, 1 Jamaica (Born in England), 1 Portugal

York City 19 English, 1 Antigua (born in England), 1 Grenada (born in England), 1 Guadeloupe (qualifies as French), 1 Austrian

 

 

 

So, never mind what companies you have found, what you believe to be the case... above are the STONE COLD FACTS:

 

There is NO problem or issue with work permit players in League 2. Indeed there are only TWO possible work permit players. They are Australians and may well have relatives that qualify them anyway.

 

The figures for League 1 are very similar.

 

Thus, I wasn't talking rubbish

 

 

I've seen the Edit Tsunami.

 

I've also been through every single squad in the entirety of Division 2, you can do so on Wikipedia if you wish, it's freely available information. It lists their nationality. The results are below.

 

Accrington Stanley 15 English, 2 Scottish, 5 Irish

AFC Wimbledon 27 English, 2 Irish

Burton Albion 18 English, 2 Scottish, 2 Dutch, 1 Irish, 1 Australian (possible Work permit!)

Bury 16 English, 2 Scots, 3 Welsh, 1 Nigerian

Cambridge Utd 24 English, 1 Irish, 1 Italian, 1 Scot, 1 Australian (qualifies as lived in UK since a child)

Carlisle 20 English, 1 Scot, 2 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Ghana (in England since a child, no permit needed), 1 Montserrat (English born so no permit needed)

Cheltenham 21 English, 2 Irish, 1 Welsh

Dagenham & Redbridge 19 English, 2 Irish, 1 Scot, 1 Trinidad and Tobago (Born in England, no permit needed)

Exeter 17 English, 2 Welsh, 4 Irish, 1 Scot

Hartlepool 27 English

Luton Town 26 English, 2 Welsh, 2 Irish, 1 Nigerian (moved to England when 18 months old, no permit needed)

Mansfield 22 English, 1 Bermuda (in England since a child), 1 Australian (moved to England as a child), 1 Swiss

Morecambe 21 English, 3 Irish, 1 Welsh

Newport County 15 English, 5 Welsh, 3 Irish

Northampton Town 17 English, 1 Scot, 2 Irish

Oxford United 23 English, 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 New Zealand (moved to England as a child)

Plymouth 25 English, 1 Irish

Portsmouth 23 English, 1 Austrian, 1 French, 1 Ghana (born in England)

Shrewsbury 17 English, 2 Irish, 1 French, 1 Australian (work permit guy perhaps!!)

Southend 18 English, 6 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Dane, 1 Antigua (born in England)

Stevenage 22 English, 1 Irish, 1 French, 1 Congo (moved to England as a child)

Tranmere Rovers 21 English, 1 Slovakian, 3 Welsh, 1 Scot, 1 Nigerian (moved to England as a child), 1 Sierra Leone (moved to England as a child), 1 St Lucia (moved to England as a child)

Wycombe 16 English, 1 Scot, 2 Welsh, 1 Jamaica (Born in England), 1 Portugal

York City 19 English, 1 Antigua (born in England), 1 Grenada (born in England), 1 Guadeloupe (qualifies as French), 1 Austrian

 

 

 

So, never mind what companies you have found, what you believe to be the case... above are the STONE COLD FACTS:

 

There is NO problem or issue with work permit players in League 2. Indeed there are only TWO possible work permit players. They are Australians and may well have relatives that qualify them anyway.

 

The figures for League 1 are very similar.

 

Thus, I wasn't talking rubbish

100% Facts on wikipedia..... Are you sure haha

 

Good post however in terms of idea nd content.

[SCB]

 

100% Facts on wikipedia..... Are you sure haha

 

Good post however in terms of idea nd content.

While I'd never claim Wikipedia is 100% fact - I'd certainly claims it's more accurate (by a long way) that Tsunamis estimates and guesses It's also a pretty good start point.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Mind you, it does appear that, at present, Australian Speedway Riders are having more trouble getting in to this Country than all of the Illegal Immigrants from other Countries - White or Black.

I'd like to know what evidence you present in favour that argument. However, once again, illegal immigrants are by definition illegal and don't follow the rules, either by sneaking into the country in the back of a truck or by overstaying after entering the country legitimately.

 

It's very difficult for the authorities to tackle this, in particular the overstayer problem. What they can do though, is ensure that the rules are applied to the prospective immigrants or seasonal workers they do know about, or are you suggesting the rules should simply be ignored for speedway riders?

[Cue Ball]

It seems to me that there are three standpoints, firstly that the rules are rules and they have to be applied regardless, secondly that the rules are rules, but they shouldn't be applied to speedway because it doesn't suit and definitely not to Australians because they speak English and therefore aren't immigrants really and thirdly that there may or may not be immigrants playing football in this country.

[YAMYAMBANDIT]

The way I see it is, there was a set of criteria set down by the authorities, the BSPA either were manipulating the rules or blatantly ignorant to them. The BSPA were caught out, and because of it made the situation much worse. As much as we may like our Antipodean friends they are foreigners without the EU, and should be treated in exactly the same way as any immigrant, the same as the Austrailian Authorities would treat us.

[ruffdiamond]

The way I see it is, there was a set of criteria set down by the authorities, the BSPA either were manipulating the rules or blatantly ignorant to them. The BSPA were caught out, and because of it made the situation much worse. As much as we may like our Antipodean friends they are foreigners without the EU, and should be treated in exactly the same way as any immigrant, the same as the Austrailian Authorities would treat us.

 

'in a nut shell',,, and as sad as may seem, you can't really argue with it :-(

[Ben91]

The joke wasn't funny. What was even less funny was trawling through the posts of nothing but petty squabbling on this thread which I was trying to read with regard to the visa situation.

[SCB]

Well I would have thought it funny if he had put they were from Australia and said white people with six kids.

 

You really are stretching things here BW.

 

Mind you, it does appear that, at present, Australian Speedway Riders are having more trouble getting in to this Country than all of the Illegal Immigrants from other Countries - White or Black.

The funny thing with this statement is that a few speedway HAVE been "illegal" in recent years.

[BWitcher]

The joke wasn't funny. What was even less funny was trawling through the posts of nothing but petty squabbling on this thread which I was trying to read with regard to the visa situation.

 

Then direct your displeasure towards the one trolling inaccurate information.

The funny thing with this statement is that a few speedway HAVE been "illegal" in recent years.

 

Very good point, I suspect the % of illegal Australian speedway riders vastly outweighs those from other walks of life.

[lucifer sam]

BWitcher, your stats are impressive.

 

However, I don't quite see what League 2 has to do with it.

 

In terms of level:

Elite League = football's Premiership

Premier League = football's Championship

 

The National League is then at a much lower level, maybe on par with the Blue Square Premier/Conference in football.

 

So, the obvious question is, non-British players in football's Championship? In particular, players on a visa. How many are there?

 

Even then, any comparison is just that... a comparison. As every sport is unique. Some are easy to play, with e.g. just a pair of boots. Others require far more equipment, skill, etc.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited January 26, 2015 by lucifer sam

[SCB]

BWitcher, your stats are impressive.

 

However, I don't quite see what League 2 has to do with it.

 

In terms of level:

Elite League = football's Premiership

Premier League = football's Championship

 

The National League is then at a much lower level, maybe on par with the Blue Square Premier/Conference in football.

 

So, the obvious question is, non-British players in football's Championship? In particular, players on a visa. How many are there?

 

Even then, any comparison is just that... a comparison. As every sport is unique. Some are easy to play, with e.g. just a pair of boots. Others require far more equipment, skill, etc.

 

All the best

Rob

Tsunami stated (and I'm paraphrasing here) that the lower football leagues were full of 3rd rate foreigners. Bwitcher has proved that not to be the case.

 

I'd also argue that with ENglish football having the PL, Championship, Lg1, Lg2, the Conference, Conf Nth and Conf South that in speedway terms the EL is the PL and Champinoship while Leagues 1 and 2 are the Premier League. Making the Conference and below out NL.

 

The point stands that footballers trying to get work permits have a damn hard time and frankly, you don't get many foreigners in league 1 and 2.

 

 

Surely you can see that that the governments statement from here "you’re an elite sportsperson or qualified coach recognised by your sport’s governing body as internationally established at the highest level" and "your employment will develop your sport in the UK at the highest level" don't apply to young, still learning PL second strings? It's pushing it for any PL rider as the higher level is the EL. So before we start moaning we're hard done by, we need to look at what the UKV&I expect and what other sports get.

[lucifer sam]

Tsunami stated (and I'm paraphrasing here) that the lower football leagues were full of 3rd rate foreigners. Bwitcher has proved that not to be the case.

 

I'd also argue that with ENglish football having the PL, Championship, Lg1, Lg2, the Conference, Conf Nth and Conf South that in speedway terms the EL is the PL and Champinoship while Leagues 1 and 2 are the Premier League. Making the Conference and below out NL.

 

The point stands that footballers trying to get work permits have a damn hard time and frankly, you don't get many foreigners in league 1 and 2.

 

 

Surely you can see that that the governments statement from here "you’re an elite sportsperson or qualified coach recognised by your sport’s governing body as internationally established at the highest level" and "your employment will develop your sport in the UK at the highest level" don't apply to young, still learning PL second strings? It's pushing it for any PL rider as the higher level is the EL. So before we start moaning we're hard done by, we need to look at what the UKV&I expect and what other sports get.

 

SCB, I see what you're saying, although I would say EL and PL are both at a very similar level... as many riders compete in both.

 

There are many riders in the PL who have competed at international level (e.g. Speedway World Cup, wildcards in the GP, etc), so I would say it's higher than League 1 or 2. The only football division with lots of international players other than the Premiership is the Championship. Since 1997 and the current the league set-up, the PL has been a cosmopolitan league, consisting of riders of many nationalities and not really like Leagues 1 and 2 in football at all. It's set at a higher level (if only the riders were paid at a higher level!!).

 

But yes every sport has to comply with the guidelines. It's clear speedway isn't alone here, and the problem does seem to be education rather than deliberate avoidance, hence the need for workshops before the Sponsorship Certificates are reinstated.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited January 26, 2015 by lucifer sam

[YAMYAMBANDIT]

Tsunami stated (and I'm paraphrasing here) that the lower football leagues were full of 3rd rate foreigners. Bwitcher has proved that not to be the case.

 

I'd also argue that with ENglish football having the PL, Championship, Lg1, Lg2, the Conference, Conf Nth and Conf South that in speedway terms the EL is the PL and Champinoship while Leagues 1 and 2 are the Premier League. Making the Conference and below out NL.

 

The point stands that footballers trying to get work permits have a damn hard time and frankly, you don't get many foreigners in league 1 and 2.

 

 

Surely you can see that that the governments statement from here "you’re an elite sportsperson or qualified coach recognised by your sport’s governing body as internationally established at the highest level" and "your employment will develop your sport in the UK at the highest level" don't apply to young, still learning PL second strings? It's pushing it for any PL rider as the higher level is the EL. So before we start moaning we're hard done by, we need to look at what the UKV&I expect and what other sports get.

Are the arguaments on here, about who can and who cannot come to the UK to work irrelevant, as the rules in place were very clear to the employers. The problem has arisen because either they ignored the rules set down, or were ineptly ignorant of the rules. In both cases the members of the BSPA have created a problem that was not really there,

[lucifer sam]

Here's proof this is not a unique speedway problem:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/celtic_crusaders/8207827.stm

 

http://www.superleaguefans.com/rugby-league/2011/04/28/ukba-to-work-closer-with-super-league-clubs.html

 

Every sport has to comply, and every sport has misunderstood the regulations at times.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited January 26, 2015 by lucifer sam

[YAMYAMBANDIT]

Here's proof this is not a unique speedway problem:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/celtic_crusaders/8207827.stm

 

http://www.superleaguefans.com/rugby-league/2011/04/28/ukba-to-work-closer-with-super-league-clubs.html

 

All the best

Rob

The question is what problem ?

It was just an abuse of the rules in place

[SCB]

Here's proof this is not a unique speedway problem:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/celtic_crusaders/8207827.stm

 

http://www.superleaguefans.com/rugby-league/2011/04/28/ukba-to-work-closer-with-super-league-clubs.html

 

Every sport has to comply, and every sport has misunderstood the regulations at times.

 

All the best

Rob

All you seem to have done in your last few posts is agree with myself and BWitcher and disagree with Tsunami British Speedway at EL and PL level is and has been for a long time full of a multitude of nationalities - many of whom are great for British speedway (thought IMO theres more than a few who add very little). Speedway is NOT treated harshly and not getting any mucky end of the stick when it comes to visas as other sports have been found out in the past or stick to them already employing less foreigners (work permits or not).

 

Before we bemoan how bad we have it compared to other sports, as some have done. They should maybe do a little research as BWitcher and I did and you have done now. Then we realise as a sport, we don't get a bad deal (depending on your idea of good/bad - I'm still not sure the likes of Mason Campton having a 3rd season is "good" for GB speedway)

[Willowman]

Here's proof this is not a unique speedway problem:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/celtic_crusaders/8207827.stm -- 2009

http://www.superleaguefans.com/rugby-league/2011/04/28/ukba-to-work-closer-with-super-league-clubs.html -- 2011

Every sport has to comply, and every sport has misunderstood the regulations at times.

 

All the best

Rob

Speedway is just 4 years behind the times!

Edited January 26, 2015 by Willowman

[SCB]

Are the arguaments on here, about who can and who cannot come to the UK to work irrelevant, as the rules in place were very clear to the employers. The problem has arisen because either they ignored the rules set down, or were ineptly ignorant of the rules. In both cases the members of the BSPA have created a problem that was not really there,

The issue is that some clubs have employers riders incorrectly (so probably, technically, illegally) even where it was possible to employ them correctly at times. They have also allowed riders to double up "illegally" and take guest bookings. There are a number of things that as an employer of a work permit person an employer must do/provide and must clubs have not done that.

[lucifer sam]

All you seem to have done in your last few posts is agree with myself and BWitcher and disagree with Tsunami British Speedway at EL and PL level is and has been for a long time full of a multitude of nationalities - many of whom are great for British speedway (thought IMO theres more than a few who add very little). Speedway is NOT treated harshly and not getting any mucky end of the stick when it comes to visas as other sports have been found out in the past or stick to them already employing less foreigners (work permits or not).

 

Before we bemoan how bad we have it compared to other sports, as some have done. They should maybe do a little research as BWitcher and I did and you have done now. Then we realise as a sport, we don't get a bad deal (depending on your idea of good/bad - I'm still not sure the likes of Mason Campton having a 3rd season is "good" for GB speedway)

 

SCB, I'm not really sure who I've ended up agreeing and disagreeing with - unlike some, I don't come on here just for a good argument, but rather to make my own point.

 

But I do disagree with anyone trying to place the place solely at the door of the BSPA and the promoters. It's quite clear, after doing minimal research, that other sports have had similar problems e.g. Rugby League, which had to get its house in order. It's just taken UKBA/UKV&I a bit longer with the less high-profile sport of speedway.

 

All the best

Rob

[racers and royals]

 

SCB, I'm not really sure who I've ended up agreeing and disagreeing with - unlike some, I don't come on here just for a good argument, but rather to make my own point.

 

But I do disagree with anyone trying to place the place solely at the door of the BSPA and the promoters. It's quite clear, after doing minimal research, that other sports have had similar problems e.g. Rugby League, which had to get its house in order. It's just taken UKBA/UKV&I a bit longer with the less high-profile sport of speedway.

 

All the best

Rob

You might have thought that in that case the BSPA /promoters would have done more to ensure that their sport didn`t get embroiled in the problems the other sports had.