Track Covers

[Najjer]

The issue is, try folding up 3500-4000m2 It takes up loads of room! And time! Anyone who has ever tried to fold up a 6x4 metre sheet will tell you that.

You wouldn't need to fold it - rolling it would be much easier, which can then be fastened to the top of the fence, and then undone so to speak to unroll it when required again.

 

And factor in the storage for it, and also the fact that it will only be good for about 4 meetings. I suppose the extra track labour will just appear every week to put it down and pick it up, that is if they are not already working on the track, putting sheets on the dog track, and the million and one jobs that fans don't see or know about but have to be done to get a meeting on.

Attach it to the top of the air fence, so that way you kill two birds with one stone. For a number of tracks this isn't even an issue as the air fence doesn't have to be taken down and put back up again before the next meeting.

 

Why would they only be 'good' for 4 meetings?

Edited January 20, 2015 by Najjer

[pugwash]

Whether they did or didn't is besides the point...what matters is do they have the cash or not. If they do then the argument about them not being able to afford it goes out of the window.

No. that is the point! The orange one has made off with the silver. BSPA don't have any funds.

[Tsunami]

You wouldn't need to fold it - rolling it would be much easier, which can then be fastened to the top of the fence, and then undone so to speak to unroll it when required again.

 

 

Attach it to the top of the air fence, so that way you kill two birds with one stone. For a number of tracks this isn't even an issue as the air fence doesn't have to be taken down and put back up again before the next meeting.

 

Why would they only be 'good' for 4 meetings?

Once again it is work that you have no labour to carry it out. If it is a one off affair, like Berwick's FIM meeting or Poole's TV meeting a couple of years ago, you can give it a go, because of the nature/importance of the meeting. To think that there is a latent workforce out there just waiting to be on standby all season just in case it rains, is idiotic and has no aspect of reality.

 

The 4 years quote came from the analysis after the Berwick FIM meeting. The material used was fit for farming purposes and relatively thin, so easy to handle, but suspect in winds. They estimated that, with care, it could only be used about 4 times. Alternatively, you could buy heavy grade material, and not be able to lift in without the help of machinery, but no doubt you will have a solution for that as well.

Whether they did or didn't is besides the point...what matters is do they have the cash or not. If they do then the argument about them not being able to afford it goes out of the window.

The monies are distributed to the promotions, and of course that is factored into their financial budgets. Why waste essential money on things that don't work , are expensive to supply all promotions, and need replacing regularly, and can only be used by a workforce that is unlikely to materialise.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Tsunami

[Ghostwalker]

A tarpaulin will definitely last more then 4 times. A standard 600-700g/m2 fabric* will last 5 years** at least and no they are not that heavy because

you make them in smaller sections to make to easier to handle. Obviously they need to be made so that they overlap each other in order to prevent

water from pouring down where the sections meet.

 

* The kind of cheap "Japanese tarpaulin" pictured on the ebay link is not of sufficient quality to be used as track cover though. It need to be a more durable tarpaulin fabric.

That also means that the covers will be much more expensive then the claimed ~£2000.

**depends mainly on how much time they are lying around unfolded in direct sunlight. A coated tarpaulin fabric will last longer then a non coated tarpaulin fabric.

 

I think the track covers debate is similar to the one regarding air fences. They are very expensive (they are) and they take allot of storage space (they do)

but in the end they became a necessity. I think the same applies to track covers. The weather in GB, DK, SE, FI and PL is very unstable and unpredictable

and if you look at the previous season, there was allot of postponed meetings. How many of these could have been saved by having the track covered?

[Bagpuss]

As a professional sport I think the authorities in this country should organise a pilot scheme of some description with regards to track covers to see how feasible the idea is. Najjers thoughts on the subject are sensible ones so why not try some ideas out at a couple of tracks who would be willing to take part as a trial? If it doesn't work then fair enough.

[Tsunami]

A tarpaulin will definitely last more then 4 times. A standard 600-700g/m2 fabric* will last 5 years** at least and no they are not that heavy because

you make them in smaller sections to make to easier to handle. Obviously they need to be made so that they overlap each other in order to prevent

water from pouring down where the sections meet.

 

* The kind of cheap "Japanese tarpaulin" pictured on the ebay link is not of sufficient quality to be used as track cover though. It need to be a more durable tarpaulin fabric.

That also means that the covers will be much more expensive then the claimed ~£2000.

**depends mainly on how much time they are lying around unfolded in direct sunlight. A coated tarpaulin fabric will last longer then a non coated tarpaulin fabric.

 

I think the track covers debate is similar to the one regarding air fences. They are very expensive (they are) and they take allot of storage space (they do)

but in the end they became a necessity. I think the same applies to track covers. The weather in GB, DK, SE, FI and PL is very unstable and unpredictable

and if you look at the previous season, there was allot of postponed meetings. How many of these could have been saved by having the track covered?

Good points, but :-

Air fences were for safety reason so basically not an option not to use them when some were introduced in the GP and EL.

Track covers are very optional and dubious benefits. Apart from their cost, there is labour issues, storage issues, track consistency probs,etc and of course if the weather is that bad, the crowd usually stay at home anyway. Much easier to cancel the meeting, which has little crowd and poor racing, and do it another day with better conditions.

 

If covers were that necessary, why weren't they standard track equipment in the glory days of big profits in say the 80's.

As a professional sport I think the authorities in this country should organise a pilot scheme of some description with regards to track covers to see how feasible the idea is. Najjers thoughts on the subject are sensible ones so why not try some ideas out at a couple of tracks who would be willing to take part as a trial? If it doesn't work then fair enough.

There is already experience out there from them being used at Voyens., which has worse than average rain. Surely if they were that necessary, we would all use them, given Voyens experience.

[Bagpuss]

Out of interest how have Olsen and Vojens got on with them?

[Najjer]

Once again it is work that you have no labour to carry it out. If it is a one off affair, like Berwick's FIM meeting or Poole's TV meeting a couple of years ago, you can give it a go, because of the nature/importance of the meeting. To think that there is a latent workforce out there just waiting to be on standby all season just in case it rains, is idiotic and has no aspect of reality.

 

The 4 years quote came from the analysis after the Berwick FIM meeting. The material used was fit for farming purposes and relatively thin, so easy to handle, but suspect in winds. They estimated that, with care, it could only be used about 4 times. Alternatively, you could buy heavy grade material, and not be able to lift in without the help of machinery, but no doubt you will have a solution for that as well.

 

The monies are distributed to the promotions, and of course that is factored into their financial budgets. Why waste essential money on things that don't work , are expensive to supply all promotions, and need replacing regularly, and can only be used by a workforce that is unlikely to materialise.

 

Estimates for 4 meetings, with no actual hardcore evidence of this being true then. As has been quoted above, the materials available should last alot longer - not to mention, realistically how many times are we expecting these to be used throughout a whole year? Probably not massively often.

 

How can you make a claim that they don't work, when a reasonable arguement is being put forward that hasn't even been trialled properly?

Track covers are very optional and dubious benefits. Apart from their cost, there is labour issues, storage issues, track consistency probs,etc and of course if the weather is that bad, the crowd usually stay at home anyway. Much easier to cancel the meeting, which has little crowd and poor racing, and do it another day with better conditions.

 

If covers were that necessary, why weren't they standard track equipment in the glory days of big profits in say the 80's.

 

There is already experience out there from them being used at Voyens., which has worse than average rain. Surely if they were that necessary, we would all use them, given Voyens experience.

 

Your first point about cancelling a meeting has no substance - how many times have we seen a forecast where it is rain all day long and set to brighten up at 7oclock? In normal conditions by then, the damage is already done and the track is waterlogged regardless of the weather in the evening and has to be cancelled. Track covers can solve that. They won't stop rain offs full stop but they will most certainly improve the likelihood of meetings going ahead.

 

I didn't realise a Swedish club also use them at their home meetings according to someone on this thread, so they must of had some success to continue with that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vojens and other tracks like Berwick I seem to recall, just had sheets down with tyres on top which is hardly a quick fix.

 

To completely rubbish the idea however, would be foolish.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Najjer

[Tsunami]

 

Estimates for 4 meetings, with no actual hardcore evidence of this being true then.

Not my opinion, but those from farming stock who were carrying out the work with materials that knew something about.

 

As has been quoted above, the materials available should last alot longer - not to mention, realistically how many times are we expecting these to be used throughout a whole year? Probably not massively often.

How can you make a claim that they don't work, when a reasonable arguement is being put forward that hasn't even been trialled properly?

They have been used many times and those who do it and have to pay for it and find the standby labour for it, not those in their armchairs, don't think it is worth pursuing

 

Your first point about cancelling a meeting has no substance - how many times have we seen a forecast where it is rain all day long and set to brighten up at 7oclock? In normal conditions by then, the damage is already done and the track is waterlogged regardless of the weather in the evening and has to be cancelled. Track covers can solve that. They won't stop rain offs full stop but they will most certainly improve the likelihood of meetings going ahead.

Yes, so every time it looks like rain, put the covers down with this spare set of workers, even if it is the previous day, and save some meetings. For the amount of times it would work and possibly justify them, does not warrant the time and effort especially with the variances in our weather forecasting systems.

 

I didn't realise a Swedish club also use them at their home meetings according to someone on this thread, so they must of had some success to continue with that.

The secret answer is in the 'a' Swedish club not ALL Swedish clubs.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vojens and other tracks like Berwick I seem to recall, just had sheets down with tyres on top which is hardly a quick fix.

 

To completely rubbish the idea however, would be foolish.

Quite agree, but the current situation is after covers have been tried and tested and found not viable.

[Najjer]

Using the methods which have been used in the past, possibly - however, I've offered an alternative solution which would work much better I believe. The initial arguement was that the cost would be too high which I have already proved within 2 minutes of research that the original figures that were being quoted were about £3,000 off what it could actually be done for.

 

Your point about "just one club doing it, therefore it musn't work" is irrelevant - If I was the only person in a Maths test to put correct answer to 2+2 as 4, and the other 99 people put 5 doesn't make them correct.

 

The best point you make is would there be enough people to actually operate the 'covers'? I believe so, yes - I can't imagine any track curator and helpers turn up to the track an hour before start time. We are talking about the covers being used from the night before the racenight, or at some point during the actual day itself when they could be pulled over the track by a small number of people. Obviously the more, the quicker it would work. Whilst I think your point is valid and it will differ from track to track, I don't see it being a big enough issue to stop the cover idea being effective and worthwhile.

[Starman2006]

Think about how big an area a speedway track covers and so just how much sheeting you need. Let go low end estimate, a 300 metre track that is 8 metres wide. I've not allowed for the fact that going around the outside of the bend it'll go further so you can probably add on a good 140ish metres. So now you need 440 metres of sheet at 8 metre wide to cover a 300m track. Thats about £5-6000 based on a quick internet search.

 

I don't get all this fancy cut to size with velcro rubbish that Swindon used. Just have a load of 30-50m sections and over lap them on the bends! Over laps means less chance of water seeping under too.

 

The issue is, try folding up 3500-4000m2 It takes up loads of room! And time! Anyone who has ever tried to fold up a 6x4 metre sheet will tell you that.

 

Personally if I was a promoter, I might be prone to give it a try. If it all fails at least I have a load of tarpaulin to sell on ebay

We've tried it. 5 hrs putting them down, and 5 hrs taking them back up again in the pissing down of rain, ok call it 3 hrs if you don't roll them back up properly again and just shove them on the centre green.. But you still need the VOLUNTEERS to roll them up properly and put them away, Dogs won't have them sat on the centre green.. Any VOLUNTEERS ?? They don't grow on tree's nowadays.... Najier.. You should know, how many rakers do you have on the bends ??

Edited January 20, 2015 by Starman2006

[Najjer]

We've tried it. 5 hrs putting them down, and 5 hrs taking them back up again in the pissing down of rain, ok call it 3 hrs if you don't roll them back up properly again and just shove them on the centre green.. But you still need the VOLUNTEERS to roll them up properly and put them away, Dogs won't have them sat on the centre green.. Any VOLUNTEERS ?? They don't grow on tree's nowadays.... Najier.. You should know, how many rakers do you have on the bends ??

 

They can be rolled up onto the top of the fence or just behind, with some sort of fastener to hold it in place. Rolling tarpaulins (in the simpliest of scenarios) really isn't very difficult. Folding them is a complete different kettle of fish.

 

Without counting, I would say off the top of my head at Somerset there is at least 6-8 track staff on the centre green, with more away from the track itself.

[Starman2006]

 

They can be rolled up onto the top of the fence or just behind, with some sort of fastener to hold it in place. Rolling tarpaulins (in the simpliest of scenarios) really isn't very difficult. Folding them is a complete different kettle of fish.

 

Without counting, I would say off the top of my head at Somerset there is at least 6-8 track staff on the centre green, with more away from the track itself.

Your first point, it cannot be done, you felt how heavy they are and we are talking PROPER covers, not crap., And for you second point, you had 1 raker on the 1-2 bend last season. The rest were scraping the boards. I do watch !!!

[Najjer]

Your first point, it cannot be done, you felt how heavy they are and we are talking PROPER covers, not crap., And for you second point, you had 1 raker on the 1-2 bend last season. The rest were scraping the boards. I do watch !!

 

If it stops water, what's the issue?

[Tsunami]

 

They can be rolled up onto the top of the fence or just behind, with some sort of fastener to hold it in place. Rolling tarpaulins (in the simpliest of scenarios) really isn't very difficult. Folding them is a complete different kettle of fish.

 

Without counting, I would say off the top of my head at Somerset there is at least 6-8 track staff on the centre green, with more away from the track itself.

Do you really think anything through without just blurting it out. have you worked out the weight of even flimsy sheeting in the roll and only at owned tracks with no dogs could it be used. What about tracks like Ippy, Arena Essex, Eastbourne and all the dog tracks speedways. There is no chance of lifting it(too heavy) over the fence, and leaving it there in their stadiums, even if the covers did work. How many tracks would allow you to get on track the night beforehand, and where is this magic labour going to come from in a sport that is already desperately short on track staff.

BTW. Even in your world track staff can't just turn up to do track work/ air fence etc, 1 hour before a meeting. Most of the day is already spent on track preparation and other essential jobs involving the air fence. I am one of them. You want to start thinking more, or finding out more, about how a club functions on race meeting day before the actual meeting.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Tsunami

[Starman2006]

 

If it stops water, what's the issue?

If you put crap covers down the water will seep through, if you put decent covers down it won't, but whichever way you do it the track is going to sweat, unless you raise them off the ground and that is not as simple as it sounds and is..

Do you really think anything through without just blurting it out. have you worked out the weight of even flimsy sheeting in the roll and only at owned tracks with no doge could it be used. What about tracks like Ippy, Arena Essex, Eastbourne and all the dog tracks speedways. There is no chance of lifting it(too heavy) over the fence, and leaving it there in their stadiums, even if the covers did work. How many tracks would allow you to get on track the night beforehand, and where is this magic labour going to come from in a sport that is already desperately short on track staff.

BTW. Only in your world do you think track staff just turn up to do track work/ air fence etc, 1 hour before a meeting. You want to start thinking more, or finding out more, about how a club functions on race meeti ng day before the actual meeting.

And Swindon and KL.. Ours a Somersets are 2.99 and Somersets is 300 !! So it doesn't take an expert to work that out.. Just not practical..

No mate, sadly Najier does know how a track works or how much work goes into getting a meeting ready,,, Safely. As i said, VOLUNTEERS don't grow on Tree's nowadays..

Edited January 20, 2015 by Starman2006

[Tsunami]

If you put crap covers down the water will seep through, if you put decent covers down it won't, but whichever way you do it the track is going to sweat, unless you raise them off the ground and that is not as simple as it sounds and is..

And Swindon and KL.. Ours a Somersets are 2.99 and Somersets is 300 !! So it doesn't take an expert to work that out.. Just not practical..

If you and me agree on that, it MUST be true.

[Starman2006]

If you and me agree on that, it MUST be true.

Definately, believe me !!

[Najjer]

Multi quoting takes too to sort through on my phone, so in reference to the previous replies:

 

I've used tarpaulin for plenty of things over the past few years so know at least two things about it - 1) it's waterproof (take note Starman) and 2) it's light weight and is not heavy in the slightest (take not tsunami).

 

With regards to the track sweating (take note Starman) then refer back to some of my earlier postings on a solution so this isn't an issue. And even if it was, surely a track 'sweating' is better than a track flooded?

 

I know very well that track staff don't turn an hour before a meeting (hence my earlier post which also said that - which tsunami has read incorrectly clearly) and know how many hours gets pumped into it. I can't speak for every track across the country but I'm well aware of the time Ez, and the others put in at Somerset thank you very much.

 

I wish you had mentioned Tsunami you were a member of the track staff at Newcastle - I've never heard you mention it before

 

I appreciate as I said previously the issue with some tracks having to remove and reinstall the fence etc etc - but still doesn't the question why clubs where this isn't an issue haven't used or don't use covers upto now?

Edited January 20, 2015 by Najjer

[Starman2006]

Multi quoting takes too to sort through on my phone, so in reference to the previous replies:

 

I've used tarpaulin for plenty of things over the past few years so know at least two things about it - 1) it's waterproof (take note Starman) and 2) it's light weight and is not heavy in the slightest (take not tsunami).

 

With regards to the track sweating (take note Starman) then refer back to some of my earlier postings on a solution so this isn't an issue. And even if it was, surely a track 'sweating' is better than a track flooded?

 

 

Its a big issue, and totally impractical. And tarpualin is a waste of time, you keep banging on about that, but its worse than PROPER covers.. Hang them over the fence, clearly you are clueless. As for your other point, no when the track sweats it can make it like an ice rink, which is even worse. Perhaps you'd like to VOLUNTEER to put these covers down, for 5 hrs, then spend 3 taking them up..

Im glad you realise how long it takes to set up for a meeting, and its not just down to putting the airfence up and Ez running round a few times with the grader... Clearly you got your nose put out of joint with your remarks hence your sharpness in your posts. Its not all beer and skittles, or getting your boatrace in the programme. Ask your 3 blokes that spend the winter up the OTA taking the kickboards down and re-painting and re-placing them, and re doing the netting on the straights. Give them a buzz ask if you can go up and volunteer...Im sure they'l give you a paint brush. That includes getting the airfences back out and setting them out and D clipping them , properly Then you'l realise how hard it is, and how heavy they are... Its not a walk in the park Tusunami will tell you the same.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Starman2006