Bspa Meeting With Ukv&i?

[brewer]

People bleating on about not enough brits to fill the gaps, If the national league was set up and left to actually develop young talent, rather than use young lads as speedway slags to keep the EL alive and save money or let teams like Cradley last year take the mick.

 

We dont seem to be about development of good kids, mostly about the here and now... No vision, no loyalty and no help.... A few clubs do training schools,( hats off) but as a sport, and although better these past few years, the development in its youth is shocking to say the least imo.

and for the pl to bring in a draft system for said nl riders the chance to progress as opposed to many teams having journeymen 3-5 point foreigners year in year out

[Arson fire]

In essence we have been assisting developing young foreigners for years, far more than our own in a way...giving them the platform to come and develop their skills and further their careers and speedway education. How many other countrys have done that??... How many other speedway nations have welcomed our young riders with open arms before theyve developed as riders and men?? I cant think of any tbh.

 

Yes, obviously some had already shown great potential at an early age, but most of them ( even the top lads) probably wouldnt be where they are today.... would holder have progressed to world champ if he hadnt came to Britain for example?? I doubt it, because Britain is the gateway and a grounding that has opened up bigger and better things for almost all, british speedway owes them nothing... If only we offered our own the same oppotunities we might not be as down as we are today.

 

The sad thing is, its turned full circle in about 20 years.... Now we need them more than they need us, and weve only ourselves to blame.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Arson fire

[barncooseboy]

An important fact I havent seen mentioned, ALL Visa/Sponsored riders Must be paid the average of their previous 12 weeks points money,each week, when and if they are injured or dropped by a team. This is to prevent them claiming benefits from the UK Tax payer.

 

This has been the case since at least 2001

Edited January 22, 2015 by barncooseboy

[greyhoundp]

People bleating on about not enough brits to fill the gaps, If the national league was set up and left to actually develop young talent, rather than use young lads as speedway slags to keep the EL alive and save money or let teams like Cradley last year take the mick.

 

We dont seem to be about development of good kids, mostly about the here and now... No vision, no loyalty and no help.... A few clubs do training schools,( hats off) but as a sport, and although better these past few years, the development in its youth is shocking to say the least imo.

 

I agree with your second point, but your statement that Cradley took the Mick! How ? we operated under the rules as they allowed, Kent Kings, and Mildenhall both have there own Tracks and good attendances, and NO rent, so should have been able to compete with Cradley, why they didnt was down to them entirely, so show me where Cradley took the Mick. Stevie Worrall, Mat Williamson and Danny Phillips were there to be signed by anyone. Tom, Max, Cradley assetts, Paul and Nathan were at Cradley the previous season, so where is the problem ?.

[Tsunami]

In essence we have been assisting developing young foreigners for years, far more than our own in a way...giving them the platform to come and develop their skills and further their careers and speedway education. How many other countrys have done that??... How many other speedway nations have welcomed our young riders with open arms before theyve developed as riders and men?? I cant think of any tbh.

 

Yes, obviously some had already shown great potential at an early age, but most of them ( even the top lads) probably wouldnt be where they are today.... would holder have progressed to world champ if he hadnt came to Britain for example?? I doubt it, because Britain is the gateway and a grounding that has opened up bigger and better things for almost all, british speedway owes them nothing... If only we offered our own the same oppotunities we might not be as down as we are today.

 

The sad thing is, its turned full circle in about 20 years.... Now we need them more than they need us, and weve only ourselves to blame.

I agree with that, but I think you totally underestimate what is happening around the country involving youth development. The UK was always the main training ground for the riders wanting to be top of their trade. Fans wanted to see these top riders, so they were signed, Remember Nicki, Bjarne and KB. I read something a few years ago that the current level of new motorcycle road licences is down by about 80% in recent years. No road bikes, no scrambling, little grass tracking. Society has changed, even in football the number of kids playing football across the board is way down. Kids played everywhere at one time as you know, but they didn't have the many things that the kids can do now. The activities of youths is changing so speedway has to bid for their attention. In Denmark it is almost built into local society, which would never work or get supported in this country. It may be too late but there is still a lot happening. Eastbourne and Birmingham going NL is actually a good thing.

An important fact I havent seen mentioned, ALL Visa/Sponsored riders Must be paid the average of their previous 12 weeks points money,each week, when and if they are injured or dropped by a team. This is to prevent them claiming benefits from the UK Tax payer.

 

This has been the case since at least 2001

I know. It's a bit like entering OZ in that you have to demonstrate you have funds or have a mentor to support you to a given level. Watch too much Border Control.

[Arson fire]

 

I agree with your second point, but your statement that Cradley took the Mick! How ? we operated under the rules as they allowed, Kent Kings, and Mildenhall both have there own Tracks and good attendances, and NO rent, so should have been able to compete with Cradley, why they didnt was down to them entirely, so show me where Cradley took the Mick. Stevie Worrall, Mat Williamson and Danny Phillips were there to be signed by anyone. Tom, Max, Cradley assetts, Paul and Nathan were at Cradley the previous season, so where is the problem ?.

i should have said allowing teams like cradley to take the mick sorry.

 

Being able to sign that team at NL level is a joke imo.... Surely Cradley didnt enter the league just to pumel everyone for a bit of silverware?? Thats not speedway man, imo its win at all costs, which again imo, the NL shouldnt be about.... What purpose did it serve worrall and Starke?? Established prem league riders?? It shouldnt be allowed i dont think...

 

It needs looked at as its hindering the chances of others.

[hrhbig]

In essence we have been assisting developing young foreigners for years, far more than our own in a way...giving them the platform to come and develop their skills and further their careers and speedway education. How many other countrys have done that??... How many other speedway nations have welcomed our young riders with open arms before theyve developed as riders and men?? I cant think of any tbh.

 

Yes, obviously some had already shown great potential at an early age, but most of them ( even the top lads) probably wouldnt be where they are today.... would holder have progressed to world champ if he hadnt came to Britain for example?? I doubt it, because Britain is the gateway and a grounding that has opened up bigger and better things for almost all, british speedway owes them nothing... If only we offered our own the same oppotunities we might not be as down as we are today.

 

The sad thing is, its turned full circle in about 20 years.... Now we need them more than they need us, and weve only ourselves to blame.

I agree somewhat with your comment regarding CH, and the World championship, but when he was riding for the IOW, did not the other riders in that team have the same opportunity to progress , where are they now ??

[Arson fire]

I agree somewhat with your comment regarding CH, and the World championship, but when he was riding for the IOW, did not the other riders in that team have the same opportunity to progress , where are they now ??

they did, but he was obviously better.... Would he have been though without the chance to come here?... Where would he have went?? Straight to poland, denmark? not many go that route..he'd probably have plodded around Oz and ended up with a real job.... For every Chris Holder there are 10-20 Mason camptons

[Ghostwalker]

Arson fire, in the Swedish Elitserien there is Swedish rider quotas (3 Swedish riders/line up required).

This have been respected since the rule/agreement was implemented a couple of years ago.

However for next season two teams have decided to sign one foreign rider each on a Swedish license

so that they can use that foreign rider as one of the mandatory Swedish rider.

 

I have nothing the against those riders but the agreement is there to provide Swedish riders with a place

in the lineup, it's not there for teams to exploit by using foreign riders on a Swedish license.

 

However the 80cc youth series and the lowest 500cc series, the Division 1 is exclusively for Swedish rider although

a Finnish team have been invited (for the second season) since there is only 9 Swedish Div1 teams and

both the federation and the other teams want to have an even amount of teams.

[Arson fire]

Arson fire, in the Swedish Elitserien there is Swedish rider quotas (3 Swedish riders/line up required).

This have been respected since the rule/agreement was implemented a couple of years ago.

However for next season two teams have decided to sign one foreign rider each on a Swedish license

so that they can use that foreign rider as one of the mandatory Swedish rider.

 

I have nothing the against those riders but the agreement is there to provide Swedish riders with a place

in the lineup, it's not there for teams to exploit by using foreign riders on a Swedish license.

 

However the 80cc youth series and the lowest 500cc series, the Division 1 is exclusively for Swedish rider although

a Finnish team have been invited (for the second season) since there is only 9 Swedish Div1 teams and

both the federation and the other teams want to have an even amount of teams.

we need to do something about our infestructure, it will take years but at least there would be light at the end of the tunnel...

[BWitcher]

People bleating on about not enough brits to fill the gaps, If the national league was set up and left to actually develop young talent, rather than use young lads as speedway slags to keep the EL alive and save money or let teams like Cradley last year take the mick.

 

We dont seem to be about development of good kids, mostly about the here and now... No vision, no loyalty and no help.... A few clubs do training schools,( hats off) but as a sport, and although better these past few years, the development in its youth is shocking to say the least imo.

 

Don't blame the EL.

 

The PL are the ones to blame for lack of progression of kids from the NL.

[Daniel Smith]

What does this VISA issue mean in terms of the SGP's???

 

With Holder, Batchelor and Doyle possibly having no UK residency would that mean them excluded from the series or will they have to apply for European VISA's and live in Poland / Sweden etc??

 

If the latter, couldn't they then still compete in the British leagues without residency??? Surely as part of the EU that VISA would take president over a UK VISA would it not??

 

Just thinking about potential loopholes

[Arson fire]

 

Don't blame the EL.

 

The PL are the ones to blame for lack of progression of kids from the NL.

it was an example of ' fast tracking' to save money not for their benefit, natural progression should be NL to PL imo.... Not jump up two steps to save me a few quid... How is the PL mainly to blame then??

 

Because without cheap lads at reserve, i doubt there would be an EL

Edited January 23, 2015 by Arson fire

[Humphrey Appleby]

If the latter, couldn't they then still compete in the British leagues without residency??? Surely as part of the EU that VISA would take president over a UK VISA would it not??

 

As far as I'm aware, a non-EU citizen holding a work permit in an EU country does not automatically entitle them to work in another EU country. I'm also fairly sure the condition of entering the UK either visa free or with a visitors visa is that no paid employment is allowed, which would preclude competing the British leagues.

 

The SGP is an interesting question, but the UK has so-called sports visitors visas that allow you to compete in one-off tournaments (as a professional or amateur).

People bleating on about not enough brits to fill the gaps, If the national league was set up and left to actually develop young talent, rather than use young lads as speedway slags to keep the EL alive and save money or let teams like Cradley last year take the mick.

 

There's all manner of reasons for the rider shortages, but most of these challenges are faced by other sports as well, and they've still managed to invest in proper youth training programmes. In fairness, some reasonable efforts have been made in speedway to address the issues as well, but the system still suffers from a lack of joined-up thinking, self-interest, and a lack of proper investment (partly because the sport lives hand-to-mouth). You only have to look at all the "PL shouldn't be used to prop-up the EL" arguments on the forum, when in fact the success of the sport (any sport) is entirely dependent on having a healthy top level and underlying feeder leagues that encourage progression.

 

We can all identity the problems even if we can't agree on the solutions, but it's hardly anything new and I don't see why it's the concern of UK Immigration when the visas are getting handed-out.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby

[robinsgirl]

It's concerning that the UKVI raise their concerns during the Christmas/ New Year period when many sports are not active, then throw down a mandatory workshop of the rules right during the time when clubs are re-meeting to plan ahead. surely the UKVI should have been doing checks and caught this and assisted the clubs back on track mid year. Then there is a chance clubs could 'clean up their act' as far as sponsorship of competitors is concerned. Someone who hasn't been doing their job has has a sudden 'wake up' and is using a big stick to right the ship in one hell of a hurry, with little concern for the timing!

[Humphrey Appleby]

Surely the UKVI should have been doing checks and caught this and assisted the clubs back on track mid year.

 

No, the onus is on the employer to know the rules and follow them, not for them to do what they like until the authorities enforce them. Promotions can't now grumble because they've been caught at an inconvenient time, but would they have been happier if visas had been cancelled mid-season?

[Najjer]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30945201

 

It's not just speedway!! Ironic that a foreigner should dictate who is allowed into our country to work!

Edited January 23, 2015 by Najjer

[ch958]

the work permit system is there to protect wages and jobs - careful what you wish for

[ruffdiamond]

I agree with that, but I think you totally underestimate what is happening around the country involving youth development. The UK was always the main training ground for the riders wanting to be top of their trade. Fans wanted to see these top riders, so they were signed, Remember Nicki, Bjarne and KB. I read something a few years ago that the current level of new motorcycle road licences is down by about 80% in recent years. No road bikes, no scrambling, little grass tracking. Society has changed, even in football the number of kids playing football across the board is way down. Kids played everywhere at one time as you know, but they didn't have the many things that the kids can do now. The activities of youths is changing so speedway has to bid for their attention. In Denmark it is almost built into local society, which would never work or get supported in this country. It may be too late but there is still a lot happening. Eastbourne and Birmingham going NL is actually a good thing.

I know. It's a bit like entering OZ in that you have to demonstrate you have funds or have a mentor to support you to a given level. Watch too much Border Control.

 

yes,,, it's all changed,,, along with our cotton wool society, kids often can't do dangerous, or noisy stuff, cos there's far to many people whinging about it,,, it's a sh!te state of affairs :-(

[barrow boy]

As far as I'm aware, the criteria for a Non-EU rider to be granted a Governing Board Endorsement (GBE) which is required in order to receive a visa, was set in 2009. As far as I am aware this has never been changed, and this appears to be the case as it appears under the "INFO" tag on the BSPA website. The criteria is as follows:

 

 

GOVERNING BODY ENDORSEMENT

 

 

The Governing Body Endorsement (GBE) requirements for non-European Economic Area (EEA) nationals to be employed in British Speedway in 2009 :

 

Any Speedway promotion wishing to employ an individual rider to participate in their team will be required to guarantee that, for the previous season, the rider for whom the application is made has fulfilled one of the following criteria.

 

a) Australia/ New Zealand/ U.S.A.

Finished in the first four in the state Championships

 

For the following countries which have professional speedway leagues:

Poland, the Czech Republic and Sweden

Achieved an average in excess of 6.00 points while competing in:Poland - Extra League and First Division

Czech Republic - First Division

Sweden - Elite League and First Division

 

c) For riders who have competed, in the previous season, in any country not listed above, the rider must be the current National Champion to be considered eligible.

 

Certificate of Sponsorships are normally approved for the speedway season which runs from 15th March to 31st October or for the contract period which can be for up to four years. Upon expiry of the permission granted by a Certificate of Sponsorship, a rider returning to the U.K. for the new season must have achieved the following averages in the previous U.K. season or have qualified by meeting the requirements of a) or or c) above.

 

Elite League - 4.00 points

Premier League - 7.00 points

 

No exceptions or extensions will be granted to riders failing to achieve the averages except in the case of injury, medical evidence of which must be supplied.

 

So how many of those riders awaiting Visas have met this criteria? I fear that there are a number of riders who fall well short of the standard set.

 

Perhaps the workshops that are being organised, are to provide certain officials / promoters with basic English and comprehension skills!!!!!!!

Is this government ruling no longer in force? I ask this because Jason Doyle is believed to be affected but he surely complies with the requirement to have finished in the top 4 in The Australian Championship having done so in the past 2.