FAST GATER Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I'm trying to express my views as a fan and the reason I oppose so many things that the Bspa/SCB introduce is because they are no good but it dosent really matter if I like them or not the fact is 1000s have deserted the sport over the last few years and then we get revolutionary ideas like changing a helmet colour because "we have listened to the fans" . I know I boil the piss of promoters with my views because some have told me so but that doesn't make me wrong , I don't have a problem with anybody making money out of the sport as long as they put something back in , I know promoters put a lot back in but they won't speculate to acumulate (understandable maybe) but until it happens the sport won't go anywhere and all their decisions are short term plaster over ideas instead of future prospect , the sport needs to go one of two ways , either make it like F1 and all money and glamour with someone like Bernie exclestone at the helm and alienate its current fan base but apeal to a new breed of fan or it needs to take s step back to the garden shed type sport it has always been and go that that root making the sport cheaper for riders and fans and try to attract the former fans back who have become fed up with the current version of the sport which has become too expensive for itself and has a bit of "its a knockout" feel about it with stupid rules and formats, I would prefer the step back because to me that's what speedways apeal is and has always been but whichever way it goes we can't stay as we are Excellent post as always Dean is man after my own heart as a fan for 40plus yrs I know where he's coming from and believe that the sport should take a step back even though many feel that is looking at the past through rose tinted glasses . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Excellent post as always Dean is man after my own heart as a fan for 40plus yrs I know where he's coming from and believe that the sport should take a step back even though many feel that is looking at the past through rose tinted glasses . I think everyone will know where I stand on this one. Good Post Dean. :approve: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I'm trying to express my views as a fan and the reason I oppose so many things that the Bspa/SCB introduce is because they are no good but it dosent really matter if I like them or not the fact is 1000s have deserted the sport over the last few years and then we get revolutionary ideas like changing a helmet colour because "we have listened to the fans" . I know I boil the piss of promoters with my views because some have told me so but that doesn't make me wrong , I don't have a problem with anybody making money out of the sport as long as they put something back in , I know promoters put a lot back in but they won't speculate to acumulate (understandable maybe) but until it happens the sport won't go anywhere and all their decisions are short term plaster over ideas instead of future prospect , the sport needs to go one of two ways , either make it like F1 and all money and glamour with someone like Bernie exclestone at the helm and alienate its current fan base but apeal to a new breed of fan or it needs to take s step back to the garden shed type sport it has always been and go that that root making the sport cheaper for riders and fans and try to attract the former fans back who have become fed up with the current version of the sport which has become too expensive for itself and has a bit of "its a knockout" feel about it with stupid rules and formats, I would prefer the step back because to me that's what speedways apeal is and has always been but whichever way it goes we can't stay as we are I see you are still in denial that promoters actually lose a lot of money to keep the sport going, and like others you think it is still cash rich. Not a good start point for a discussion about the future. Certainly the F1 route is not feasible. Going backwards in sport just pampers to the old school, who you must agree, are not the future. The two 'likes' you received are testament to that. IMO the sport needs to look forward and embrace things which are popular and work in other sports. I know you and others blame the BSPA for everything, especially the losses of 1000's of fans over the last few years. There are lot more factors than that in terms of money in pockets due to cuts, and the fact that other sports are also losing fans because society changes. I feel you would ridicule anything, especially anything Briggo, and do you really think that changing helmet colours was said to be revolutionary. There were great revolutionary reasons in about 2002 to introduce the green helmet colour in the first case, the real reason for which you choose to ignore. The return back to Yellow/Black was never said to be revolutionary , just a tidying up from a few fans caught out by dodgy lighting, etc. These are minor considerations which are/were never attended to induce new fans. Plenty of things have been tried like Play Offs, Tac Sub, Fast track riders, Youth championships and youth training,etc, all modern thoughts to try and progress the sport. For those who think the old bikes, World Finals, black leathers, cinder tracks have a place in the future just shows how out of date people can be when criticising a modern sport. WE need to move on, and looking backwards is hardly going to make progress. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I see you are still in denial that promoters actually lose a lot of money to keep the sport going, and like others you think it is still cash rich. Not a good start point for a discussion about the future. Certainly the F1 route is not feasible. Going backwards in sport just pampers to the old school, who you must agree, are not the future. The two 'likes' you received are testament to that. IMO the sport needs to look forward and embrace things which are popular and work in other sports. I know you and others blame the BSPA for everything, especially the losses of 1000's of fans over the last few years. There are lot more factors than that in terms of money in pockets due to cuts, and the fact that other sports are also losing fans because society changes. I feel you would ridicule anything, especially anything Briggo, and do you really think that changing helmet colours was said to be revolutionary. There were great revolutionary reasons in about 2002 to introduce the green helmet colour in the first case, the real reason for which you choose to ignore. The return back to Yellow/Black was never said to be revolutionary , just a tidying up from a few fans caught out by dodgy lighting, etc. These are minor considerations which are/were never attended to induce new fans. Plenty of things have been tried like Play Offs, Tac Sub, Fast track riders, Youth championships and youth training,etc, all modern thoughts to try and progress the sport. For those who think the old bikes, World Finals, black leathers, cinder tracks have a place in the future just shows how out of date people can be when criticising a modern sport. WE need to move on, and looking backwards is hardly going to make progress. Three now...................................... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Three now...................................... :) It's not exactly a badge of honour though. Longing for the old days. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I see you are still in denial that promoters actually lose a lot of money to keep the sport going, and like others you think it is still cash rich. Not a good start point for a discussion about the future. Certainly the F1 route is not feasible. Going backwards in sport just pampers to the old school, who you must agree, are not the future. The two 'likes' you received are testament to that. IMO the sport needs to look forward and embrace things which are popular and work in other sports. I know you and others blame the BSPA for everything, especially the losses of 1000's of fans over the last few years. There are lot more factors than that in terms of money in pockets due to cuts, and the fact that other sports are also losing fans because society changes. I feel you would ridicule anything, especially anything Briggo, and do you really think that changing helmet colours was said to be revolutionary. There were great revolutionary reasons in about 2002 to introduce the green helmet colour in the first case, the real reason for which you choose to ignore. The return back to Yellow/Black was never said to be revolutionary , just a tidying up from a few fans caught out by dodgy lighting, etc. These are minor considerations which are/were never attended to induce new fans. Plenty of things have been tried like Play Offs, Tac Sub, Fast track riders, Youth championships and youth training,etc, all modern thoughts to try and progress the sport. For those who think the old bikes, World Finals, black leathers, cinder tracks have a place in the future just shows how out of date people can be when criticising a modern sport. WE need to move on, and looking backwards is hardly going to make progress. Good post Tsunami. We can agree Not that I am saying the BSPA is perfect, but what you say here I fully agree with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAST GATER Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) I see you are still in denial that promoters actually lose a lot of money to keep the sport going, and like others you think it is still cash rich. Not a good start point for a discussion about the future. Certainly the F1 route is not feasible. Going backwards in sport just pampers to the old school, who you must agree, are not the future. The two 'likes' you received are testament to that. IMO the sport needs to look forward and embrace things which are popular and work in other sports. I know you and others blame the BSPA for everything, especially the losses of 1000's of fans over the last few years. There are lot more factors than that in terms of money in pockets due to cuts, and the fact that other sports are also losing fans because society changes. I feel you would ridicule anything, especially anything Briggo, and do you really think that changing helmet colours was said to be revolutionary. There were great revolutionary reasons in about 2002 to introduce the green helmet colour in the first case, the real reason for which you choose to ignore. The return back to Yellow/Black was never said to be revolutionary , just a tidying up from a few fans caught out by dodgy lighting, etc. These are minor considerations which are/were never attended to induce new fans. Plenty of things have been tried like Play Offs, Tac Sub, Fast track riders, Youth championships and youth training,etc, all modern thoughts to try and progress the sport. For those who think the old bikes, World Finals, black leathers, cinder tracks have a place in the future just shows how out of date people can be when criticising a modern sport. WE need to move on, and looking backwards is hardly going to make progress. I find it a little harsh to say that some fans "old school" won't embrace change when I for one have stated many times change is needed how we go forward is another matter.I don't think promoters are making any money out the sport in the present climate but I do feel that they are like turkeys voting for christmas most of the time .Please inform me as to what future I am to embrace other than tracks closing riders unable to pay huge tuning bills (even at NL level) and fans dropping away .This not just MY out of date opinion but the general consensus if you read the posts on here . Edited January 25, 2015 by FAST GATER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 I find it a little harsh to say that some fans "old school" won't embrace change when I for one have stated many times change is needed how we go forward is another matter.I don't think promoters are making any money out the sport in the present climate but I do feel that they are like turkeys voting for christmas most of the time .Please inform me as to what future I am to embrace other than tracks closing riders unable to pay huge tuning bills (even at NL level) and fans dropping away .This not just MY out of date opinion but the general consensus if you read the posts on here . In my opinion 'change', doesn't mean we have to go backwards. Coloured kevlars/leathers are here to stay, shale is here to stay, colourful bikes are here to stay, 4 riders going around a track without brakes, running on methanol is here to stay. What needs to change? As Dean has suggested, the cost to the riders. As Dean has said, the biggest cost is engine purchase/tuning, followed by continued tuning. If this can be pared back, I believe it will be a big start. Next big cost, must be travelling costs for the riders, which is a varied and probably complicated issue, especially when we have so many foreign riders. However, speedway does not have to go backwards to go forwards, I believe. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 In my opinion 'change', doesn't mean we have to go backwards. Coloured kevlars/leathers are here to stay, shale is here to stay, colourful bikes are here to stay, 4 riders going around a track without brakes, running on methanol is here to stay. What needs to change? As Dean has suggested, the cost to the riders. As Dean has said, the biggest cost is engine purchase/tuning, followed by continued tuning. If this can be pared back, I believe it will be a big start. Next big cost, must be travelling costs for the riders, which is a varied and probably complicated issue, especially when we have so many foreign riders. However, speedway does not have to go backwards to go forwards, I believe. As things are, everyone follows the lead of the GPs and they don't seem likely to change to more economic equipment, having your riders use something different would seriously disadvantage them against those countries (Poland in particular) who chose to follow the GP regulations. An alternative would be to break away and have your own competition with your own regulations, you might eventually see some other countries decide to join you but then again you might not. You would have to initially accept a lowering of rider standards as most continental riders would stick with their own federation. That all isn't likely to happen though and the chase will continue to keep up with the wealthiest, the only real alternative that I can see is something like F2 running along side as an alternative, you never know, that might prove to be the more popular and eventually take over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) As things are, everyone follows the lead of the GPs and they don't seem likely to change to more economic equipment, having your riders use something different would seriously disadvantage them against those countries (Poland in particular) who chose to follow the GP regulations. An alternative would be to break away and have your own competition with your own regulations, you might eventually see some other countries decide to join you but then again you might not. You would have to initially accept a lowering of rider standards as most continental riders would stick with their own federation. That all isn't likely to happen though and the chase will continue to keep up with the wealthiest, the only real alternative that I can see is something like F2 running along side as an alternative, you never know, that might prove to be the more popular and eventually take over. Perhaps a reason why F2 doesn't appear to be popular, is due to MX engines being used. I think most speedway supporters like the current bikes, i.e. methanol running 500cc engines, with a countershaft and running on castor oil to give us that lovely smell! Perhaps F2 could be 'out of the crate' engines only, Jawa/GM, without any other alteration. However, I have heard it said that out of the crate engines are basket cases, due to poor engine build. I am not sure if this is true or myth. If we assume it is myth, F2 perhaps should be run just using these standard engines and not fettled. If we assume they are basket cases, then perhaps F2 should be limited to being fettled using the standard engine and standard components, but stripped and properly rebuilt to a better standard. In addition, F2 riders maybe should be limited to just one bike at the track, but a track spare being made available. Edited January 27, 2015 by Ray Stadia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAST GATER Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 As things are, everyone follows the lead of the GPs and they don't seem likely to change to more economic equipment, having your riders use something different would seriously disadvantage them against those countries (Poland in particular) who chose to follow the GP regulations. An alternative would be to break away and have your own competition with your own regulations, you might eventually see some other countries decide to join you but then again you might not. You would have to initially accept a lowering of rider standards as most continental riders would stick with their own federation. That all isn't likely to happen though and the chase will continue to keep up with the wealthiest, the only real alternative that I can see is something like F2 running along side as an alternative, you never know, that might prove to be the more popular and eventually take over. I would say the void between GP and league racing already exists but i take your point that every rider will want a setup like Hancock's but will that voidnot increase as the number of tracks and riders diminish as cost escalate beyound control .Why would top riders not be happy to ride in a league with lower running costs at the end of the day some riders ride s/way ,longtrack and grasstrack so they must have the ability to adapt to slightly less powerful ( if that be the result ) engines in the British league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 I would say the void between GP and league racing already exists but i take your point that every rider will want a setup like Hancock's but will that voidnot increase as the number of tracks and riders diminish as cost escalate beyound control .Why would top riders not be happy to ride in a league with lower running costs at the end of the day some riders ride s/way ,longtrack and grasstrack so they must have the ability to adapt to slightly less powerful ( if that be the result ) engines in the British league. Riders are already disadvantaged here because they ride smaller and more grippy tracks. In long track and grass track you aren't quite comparing like with like. I should think you are right about adapting but getting that extra edge needed to be truly world class, might be a different thing. We all have theories on how we can credibly reduce running costs and until someone actually takes steps to do something, all we'll have are theories and lessening profit margins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Perhaps a reason why F2 doesn't appear to be popular, is due to MX engines being used. I think most speedway supporters like the current bikes, i.e. methanol running 500cc engines, with a countershaft and running on castor oil to give us that lovely smell! Perhaps F2 could be 'out of the crate' engines only, Jawa/GM, without any other alteration. However, I have heard it said that out of the crate engines are basket cases, due to poor engine build. I am not sure if this is true or myth. If we assume it is myth, F2 perhaps should be run just using these standard engines and not fettled. If we assume they are basket cases, then perhaps F2 should be limited to being fettled using the standard engine and standard components, but stripped and properly rebuilt to a better standard. In addition, F2 riders maybe should be limited to just one bike at the track, but a track spare being made available. Sadly, not as much as it used to. :sad: Bloody Health & Safety. :mad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sotonian Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 H&S had nothing to do with the reduction in the use of castor oils. It just that better options appeared be they mineral or synthetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 H&S had nothing to do with the reduction in the use of castor oils. It just that better options appeared be they mineral or synthetic. Right - but the strong smell of Methanol and Castrol 'R' is still a big miss in my opinion. :sad: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 H&S had nothing to do with the reduction in the use of castor oils. It just that better options appeared be they mineral or synthetic. Another example of speedway shooting itself in the foot. The smell of castor oil, I would contest, is a big part of the meeting experience. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Another example of speedway shooting itself in the foot. The smell of castor oil, I would contest, is a big part of the meeting experience. Absolutely right!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theknow 2 Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Another example of speedway shooting itself in the foot. The smell of castor oil, I would contest, is a big part of the meeting experience. Would you run your car on Castor oil ???? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Would you run your car on Castor oil ???? Would it work? It did in Speedway Bikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Would you run your car on Castor oil ???? As TWK has said, it works/worked in speedway engines for decades, what has changed? I remember hearing years ago that Gary Havelock was using Mobil 1 synthetic and thought then.....here we go, the end of the intoxicating castor oil smell. I imagine and don't know for sure, the trend to use non-castor oil was based on sponsorship deals, but has now become a fashionable alternative. It is possible that 40w oil, as in Castrol R 40, is a bit thick these days for close bearing tolerances and with Nikasil bores. However, speedway engines get hot very quickly and the oil soon thins out and I know from the 'total loss' days, the oil was like water when it was discarded! It could also be thought, that with engines recirculating the oil, castor oil doesn't protect the engine as well as synthetic. If it is the recirculating issue, engine development has created an unintended consequence, to the detriment of the fans.....but then speedway probably feels..'bugger the fans'. In answer to running castor oil in my car?......BSA, I believe, recommended Castrol R for the Gold Star single cylinder engines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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