New Speedway Engine

[Bream]

Oil pump and water cooling could make engines more durable, but they also cause more resistance. And if you want an engine that goes fast as possible, you dont want anything fighting against it. Now days speedway engines are made from cast parts. Could engines be more lighter and durable when made from forged billet aluminium alloy with CNC? How much is the price difference with cast and CNC milled cylinder head? Also, you could make speedway engines more durable by adding different types of unobtanium parts, coatings etc. things but they would jump up the prices, a lot.

[theknow 2]

yes spread over 4 cilinders with a Rev limiter , you put all that power into one pot with no Rev limiter it will blow , motox engines regularly blow up and at half the revs of a speedway engine

Ever been to a supercross, 250f pro circuit 14000 permananlty on the rev limiter, F1 18000- WAS 22000RPM, V8 engines don't like to rev but have you seen what nascar/ Ferrari etc have them running at ? yes single cylinder 500 tends really not to like to rev to high, BUT were talking 60 second races.

To make a speedway engine last 8 months with a 4 month overhaul is easy with a decent design and all this rubbish is just tuners talk and a basic design going back 20 years with no real devolpment and poor design made of poor materials.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Ever been to a supercross, 250f pro circuit 14000 permananlty on the rev limiter, F1 18000- WAS 22000RPM, V8 engines don't like to rev but have you seen what nascar/ Ferrari etc have them running at ? yes single cylinder 500 tends really not to like to rev to high, BUT were talking 60 second races.

To make a speedway engine last 8 months with a 4 month overhaul is easy with a decent design and all this rubbish is just tuners talk and a basic design going back 20 years with no real devolpment and poor design made of poor materials.

in the last 5 years I rode I had 2 blow ups and one of those was because I went out with a cold engine , I used GMs with GM bits , I used 1rod 1 piston per engine per season ,that in my book is as reliable as is possible for any race engine ,at the same time i have a couple of mates that race ktm 250 motox and they have around 5 blow up per year although some were gearbox and some cause by cracked cases, you say poor materials but the rods Pistons and valves which are the parts that fail are made by the same company's and the same materials as other motorsports Edited January 13, 2015 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[Ray Stadia]

in the last 5 years I rode I had 2 blow ups and one of those was because I went out with a cold engine , I used GMs with GM bits , I used 1rod 1 piston per engine per season ,that in my book is as reliable as is possible for any race engine ,at the same time i have a couple of mates that race ktm 250 motox and they have around 5 blow up per year although some were gearbox and some cause by cracked cases, you say poor materials but the rods Pistons and valves which are the parts that fail are made by the same company's and the same materials as other motorsports

My understanding, is the 'off the shelf' engines when they reach the tuners of the top riders, virtually only the cases, barrel and bare head are used, everything else is discarded and replaced, i.e. con-rod, piston, maybe flywheels, maybe bearings and maybe valves. Also, I understand some of the machining can be poor and the tuners have to mate up the surfaces with further machining. If it is possible that an off the shelf engine is in development that will at least lengthen servicing intervals and is race ready from the box, that has to be good for the sport, doesn't it?

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

My understanding, is the 'off the shelf' engines when they reach the tuners of the top riders, virtually only the cases, barrel and bare head are used, everything else is discarded and replaced, i.e. con-rod, piston, maybe flywheels, maybe bearings and maybe valves. Also, I understand some of the machining can be poor and the tuners have to mate up the surfaces with further machining. If it is possible that an off the shelf engine is in development that will at least lengthen servicing intervals and is race ready from the box, that has to be good for the sport, doesn't it?

yea it would be good but it simply won't happen , apart from parts failing other parts like rings wear and carbon builds up and these things all lesson performance so they will still need serviimg and you can bet if an engine costs £6000 it's parts will also be expensive , the new silencers and everyone will. Be using them will lengthen service intervals

[Ray Stadia]

yea it would be good but it simply won't happen , apart from parts failing other parts like rings wear and carbon builds up and these things all lesson performance so they will still need serviimg and you can bet if an engine costs £6000 it's parts will also be expensive , the new silencers and everyone will. Be using them will lengthen service intervals

You hardly get carbon with methanol, not in my experience anyway. All said and done, I am a believer that speedway should be made cheaper, not dearer for the riders. A cheaper to purchase engine would be better and one that is reasonably cheap to service. And as you say Dean, reduce the power somehow.

 

Slightly off subject, but I have been watching the formula E racing car events, shown on Sundays and I am not sure of their lap times, but must be less than petrol engines, but the racing, in my opinion is excellent and entertaining. Therefore, speedway at a lower speed, can still be entertaining, in my opinion.

[michaelcroucher]

Slightly off subject, but I have been watching the formula E racing car events, shown on Sundays and I am not sure of their lap times, but must be less than petrol engines, but the racing, in my opinion is excellent and entertaining. Therefore, speedway at a lower speed, can still be entertaining, in my opinion.

 

Formula E has been really entertaning but i dont think that running a speedway bike on Electric is the answer. GM in speedway world has it really and Jawa is kind of there but not as much as GM. Quite a few years ago Honda brought out an engine. It was cheap to run etc, but GM soon pushed them out. There use to be lots of compaines that built speedway and grasstrack engines that use to last so where are they now. All engines will blow if they are not looked after.

[foamfence]

 

Formula E has been really entertaning but i dont think that running a speedway bike on Electric is the answer. GM in speedway world has it really and Jawa is kind of there but not as much as GM. Quite a few years ago Honda brought out an engine. It was cheap to run etc, but GM soon pushed them out. There use to be lots of compaines that built speedway and grasstrack engines that use to last so where are they now. All engines will blow if they are not looked after.

I don't remember Honda specifically producing a speedway engine. I do remember this http://www.sheffield-tigers.co.uk/honda.html but it was only used in meetings especially for itself, so I don't think GM actually pushed it out.

[OveFundinFan]

If Honda HRC was involved I dont think a small firm like GM would push them out. If Honda want to do something I would think they have resources at hand to do it.

[Ray Stadia]

 

Formula E has been really entertaning but i dont think that running a speedway bike on Electric is the answer. GM in speedway world has it really and Jawa is kind of there but not as much as GM. Quite a few years ago Honda brought out an engine. It was cheap to run etc, but GM soon pushed them out. There use to be lots of compaines that built speedway and grasstrack engines that use to last so where are they now. All engines will blow if they are not looked after.

I think you have missed my point, with respect MC, I was merely saying 'slower' lap times can still be entertaining. I think many on the forum have said as much, in the past. At any one time, there has not really been any more than 3 speedway engines available, i.e. for a time, Weslake, Jawa and JAP. A bit later, Weslake, Jawa and Godden. A bit later still, GM, Godden and Jawa. And now Jawa (JRM) and GM. It would be good if one of the big production motorcycle companies got involved with speedway, but it is a limited market for them and they would need to shed the gearbox, or perhaps produce a unit which incorporated a counter shaft type arrangement. As I understand it, their involvement in Moto-X is a loss leader. They hope by being successful they will sell more road bikes. That's as I understand it!

[foamfence]

I think you have missed my point, with respect MC, I was merely saying 'slower' lap times can still be entertaining. I think many on the forum have said as much, in the past. At any one time, there has not really been any more than 3 speedway engines available, i.e. for a time, Weslake, Jawa and JAP. A bit later, Weslake, Jawa and Godden. A bit later still, GM, Godden and Jawa. And now Jawa (JRM) and GM. It would be good if one of the big production motorcycle companies got involved with speedway, but it is a limited market for them and they would need to shed the gearbox, or perhaps produce a unit which incorporated a counter shaft type arrangement. As I understand it, their involvement in Moto-X is a loss leader. They hope by being successful they will sell more road bikes. That's as I understand it!

I believe Nigel Boocock and some others had rides with BSA and Matchless engines but nothing much came of it.

[Vince]

I don't think Honda would be interested in building an engine especially for speedway. I would guess that there are dealerships in the states that sell more Honda mx bikes in a year than speedway engines are sold worldwide.

No way are Honda selling off road bikes as loss leaders, the world market is huge.

[Ray Stadia]

I don't think Honda would be interested in building an engine especially for speedway. I would guess that there are dealerships in the states that sell more Honda mx bikes in a year than speedway engines are sold worldwide.

No way are Honda selling off road bikes as loss leaders, the world market is huge.

I don't think you read my post properly, Vince, with respect, I said Moto-X bikes are developed and sold as loss leaders, based on success leads to more road bikes being sold, which have a bigger profit margin. That is what I was told. However, might be wrong, but Moto-X is also a limited market, compared to the R&D input that goes into developing the bikes.

[Vince]

To be honest Ray I think you are way off the mark, the off road market is important in it's own right to the Japanese manufacturers. They put a lot of money into running teams and affiliate programs in the states. The influence of Motocross success is minimal on the road market.

 

I couldn't find figures for Honda but to give you some idea of the scale North American sales of the Yamaha YZ450F for 2011 were 69000. That's just one model alongside that there is the WR450 Enduro bike which is almost identical and then the YZF and WR 250's as well as the YZ125 and that's just from Yamaha. Sales for Honda will be considerably higher. Worldwide the MX market is pretty big although dwarfed by the market for scooters.

 

I have no idea of the market for Speedway engines but I can't imagine it being much more than 1000 per year which is why I say that the Japanese would have no interest in developing an engine. Should F2 Speedway ever take off I would imagine one of them might well be willing to supply engines only though.

[Ray Stadia]

To be honest Ray I think you are way off the mark, the off road market is important in it's own right to the Japanese manufacturers. They put a lot of money into running teams and affiliate programs in the states. The influence of Motocross success is minimal on the road market.

 

I couldn't find figures for Honda but to give you some idea of the scale North American sales of the Yamaha YZ450F for 2011 were 69000. That's just one model alongside that there is the WR450 Enduro bike which is almost identical and then the YZF and WR 250's as well as the YZ125 and that's just from Yamaha. Sales for Honda will be considerably higher. Worldwide the MX market is pretty big although dwarfed by the market for scooters.

 

I have no idea of the market for Speedway engines but I can't imagine it being much more than 1000 per year which is why I say that the Japanese would have no interest in developing an engine. Should F2 Speedway ever take off I would imagine one of them might well be willing to supply engines only though.

I was told this many years ago now Vince and perhaps things have changed. It was on the basis, many riders changed their bikes annually for the latest model, no doubt still do and if the manufacturers charged the real price they should be charging, not many would be sold. Even then there were road bikes that were similar to Moto-X bikes, as you say, Enduro for example. The added benefit for the manufacturers then and now, must be introducing new ideas which can be tested on the track, before being introduced to road machines.

 

Maybe speedway should be knocking on the door of our own bike manufacturer, Triumph. And didn't someone on the forum say Godden were going to start producing engines again? I am not sure if it is realised, but the JAP engine is still made, the V twin version mainly, but I understand they can still produce a single. I think the company name is Cameron.

[PHILIPRISING]

To be honest Ray I think you are way off the mark, the off road market is important in it's own right to the Japanese manufacturers. They put a lot of money into running teams and affiliate programs in the states. The influence of Motocross success is minimal on the road market.

 

I couldn't find figures for Honda but to give you some idea of the scale North American sales of the Yamaha YZ450F for 2011 were 69000. That's just one model alongside that there is the WR450 Enduro bike which is almost identical and then the YZF and WR 250's as well as the YZ125 and that's just from Yamaha. Sales for Honda will be considerably higher. Worldwide the MX market is pretty big although dwarfed by the market for scooters.

 

I have no idea of the market for Speedway engines but I can't imagine it being much more than 1000 per year which is why I say that the Japanese would have no interest in developing an engine. Should F2 Speedway ever take off I would imagine one of them might well be willing to supply engines only though.

WHICH is exactly why Barry Briggs, who rode for Yamaha in America many moons ago, couldn't persuade them to produce a speedway engine. The market simply wasn't big enough.

Edited January 15, 2015 by PHILIPRISING

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Buts it's not to small for jawa who already produce a 2valve ice racing engine in either upright or laydown that has been adapted and tested for speedway the answer is already there in front of our very eyes ,shame we are to stubborn or stupid to see it

[Ray Stadia]

Buts it's not to small for jawa who already produce a 2valve ice racing engine in either upright or laydown that has been adapted and tested for speedway the answer is already there in front of our very eyes ,shame we are to stubborn or stupid to see it

I take it Dean, the 2 valve Jawa, is basically similar to the 4 valve version, i.e.ohc etc. Would this engine be cheaper to service? And would this engine last much longer between service intervals, than a 4 valve?

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

I take it Dean, the 2 valve Jawa, is basically similar to the 4 valve version, i.e.ohc etc. Would this engine be cheaper to service? And would this engine last much longer between service intervals, than a 4 valve?

the fact that it is only 2 valve mean it won't rev as hard and if nothing else your saving on the price of 2 valves and 2 springs and that's a saving of £150 straight away , jawa are making a 570cc version , with some input from the right people parts can be made for durability and all this can be done at the right price and the proper control from SCB as to parts and tuning through holomagation , unfortunately greed and a selfishness means it won't happen

[Ray Stadia]

the fact that it is only 2 valve mean it won't rev as hard and if nothing else your saving on the price of 2 valves and 2 springs and that's a saving of £150 straight away , jawa are making a 570cc version , with some input from the right people parts can be made for durability and all this can be done at the right price and the proper control from SCB as to parts and tuning through holomagation , unfortunately greed and a selfishness means it won't happen

I wonder whether it is necessarily 'greed and selfishness'. Speedway is very international and for there to be a radical change in the engines used, it would need co-operation from all concerned. It would need a massive administrative initiative to achieve this. Who would be willing to take this task on? and the cost, all round, would be very high.

 

The sensible way, would be to gently introduce a new/different engine, perhaps via the National League?