Kenny Carter Dvd.

[stratton]

Im an Ipswich fan and Davey was a greta rider hampered by injury.

 

he wasnt as good as Chris Harris has been though

The quote from the late Great John Berry says it all surely you take what he said seriously.?

[E I Addio]

It should also be remembered, bikes are a lot harder to ride these days and it takes more skill to become a decent rider.

 

d.

Is that a fact? I stand to be corrected but I am sure I have heard a number of riders say the uprights were harder.

 

I think modern engines are a problem because these days they have a very narrow power band, but the chassis surely have to give a better ride with lay down engines giving a lower centre of gravity and modern leading link forks being less prone to twisting.

[moxey63]

As somebody who watches from the extreme comfort of the living room floor, I can't imagine today's riders have as much difficulty in riding their heavily fashioned for comfort bikes more than the boys of the 70s and 80, even the 90s. In decades gone by, riders used to have to battle with their machines and track conditions, often being thrown about like some rodeo passenger. Nowadays, the boys don't appear to be able to control their machines on the smoothest of circuits. If they can't rev and go, they usually end up on one wheel.

[BWitcher]

As somebody who watches from the extreme comfort of the living room floor, I can't imagine today's riders have as much difficulty in riding their heavily fashioned for comfort bikes more than the boys of the 70s and 80, even the 90s. In decades gone by, riders used to have to battle with their machines and track conditions, often being thrown about like some rodeo passenger. Nowadays, the boys don't appear to be able to control their machines on the smoothest of circuits. If they can't rev and go, they usually end up on one wheel.

 

Strange, you attempt to say it was more difficult in the old days and then present the opposite argument.

 

The facts are simple.. in by gone days, riders would 'pop along to a track' and be 'impress' in their first ever ride on a speedway bike. Within weeks they could be in a team.

 

Absolutely no chance of that happening now.

Is that a fact? I stand to be corrected but I am sure I have heard a number of riders say the uprights were harder.

 

I think modern engines are a problem because these days they have a very narrow power band, but the chassis surely have to give a better ride with lay down engines giving a lower centre of gravity and modern leading link forks being less prone to twisting.

 

Sam Ermolenko and Kelvin Tatum think so... especially since the new silencers came into play.

 

The margin for error is a lot less now, for a number of reasons.

[E I Addio]

 

Sam Ermolenko and Kelvin Tatum think so... especially since the new silencers came into play.

 

The margin for error is a lot less now, for a number of reasons.

I think they were referring to the way modern tuners anre getting more and more power from the engines resullting in an increasingly narrower power band. The new silencers undoubtedly make the situation worse because of the way the power comes in suddenly,but I am pretty sure modern chassis ride better , especially if set up properly.

 

Undoubtedly modern engines are more difficult to set up and, even the smallest adjustment can make a big difference to performance either better or worse, and that was at the root of a lot of Peter Karlsson's problems last season. He changed engines even chaged tuners but nothing worked. The other side of that coin though is that if an inferior rider gets his set up right he can beat much better riders. A classic example of that was Ben Morely at Lakeside who, once he got his home track set up sorted was beating some decent riders at Lakeside but he never really cracked it on away tracks needing different set ups.

 

I think modern tuning is one reason why it's very difficult to seriously compare riders. Greg for example has a terrific pit crew around him and does very well on it but I am not convinced he would ever be world champion in a previous era.

 

Fascinating discussion but nothing's provable so one can only say a rider was good in a particular era and enjoy them while they last.

[moxey63]

 

Strange, you attempt to say it was more difficult in the old days and then present the opposite argument.

 

 

 

I don't "attempt to say," it's what I actually said.

 

One of us may be right, the other wrong, and as we both are more likely to ride a mobility scooter than a speedway bike, we are throwing about opinions.

 

It could be true what you say, bikes are harder to ride now... but I bet my dad could beat your dad!

 

It's an argument that will never be resolved... unless you call The Myth-Busters and have done with it!

Edited December 30, 2014 by moxey63

[The White Knight]

I think they were referring to the way modern tuners anre getting more and more power from the engines resullting in an increasingly narrower power band. The new silencers undoubtedly make the situation worse because of the way the power comes in suddenly,but I am pretty sure modern chassis ride better , especially if set up properly.

 

Undoubtedly modern engines are more difficult to set up and, even the smallest adjustment can make a big difference to performance either better or worse, and that was at the root of a lot of Peter Karlsson's problems last season. He changed engines even chaged tuners but nothing worked. The other side of that coin though is that if an inferior rider gets his set up right he can beat much better riders. A classic example of that was Ben Morely at Lakeside who, once he got his home track set up sorted was beating some decent riders at Lakeside but he never really cracked it on away tracks needing different set ups.

 

I think modern tuning is one reason why it's very difficult to seriously compare riders. Greg for example has a terrific pit crew around him and does very well on it but I am not convinced he would ever be world champion in a previous era.

 

Fascinating discussion but nothing's provable so one can only say a rider was good in a particular era and enjoy them while they last.

But he was.

[BWitcher]

 

I don't "attempt to say," it's what I actually said.

 

One of us may be right, the other wrong, and as we both are more likely to ride a mobility scooter than a speedway bike, we are throwing about opinions.

 

It could be true what you say, bikes are harder to ride now... but I bet my dad could beat your dad!

 

It's an argument that will never be resolved... unless you call The Myth-Busters and have done with it!

 

Let's sum up some of the arguments..

 

It's claimed the British League was so much tougher in the 70's..

It's claimed the standard of rider was better in the 70's.

It's claimed the bikes were harder to ride in the 70's.

 

Yet in the 70's, folk who had never rode a bike could go down to the local track, have a go and instantly impress, within weeks appearing in a team. Many times such a tale has been told in Backtrack.

 

Would the same happen now? Absolutely no chance.

[The White Knight]

 

Let's sum up some of the arguments..

 

It's claimed the British League was so much tougher in the 70's..

It's claimed the standard of rider was better in the 70's.

It's claimed the bikes were harder to ride in the 70's.

 

Yet in the 70's, folk who had never rode a bike could go down to the local track, have a go and instantly impress, within weeks appearing in a team. Many times such a tale has been told in Backtrack.

 

Would the same happen now? Absolutely no chance.

You are probably right - there are no Second Half Events for youngsters to test themselves. The Second Half was a great learning aid to any young aspiring Speedway Rider. They now have to trail around the Country looking for Training Schools instead of getting a couple of rides a week at their local Track.

 

However - if Second Halves were taking place at every Track every week - in my opinion you would be wrong.

 

Simply put - there is not the Track time available these days for youngsters to develop. It is no coincidence, to me, that the demise of the Second Half and the rise of the Grand Prix Series seems to directly mirror the decline of British Speedway.

[E I Addio]

But he was.

I was talking about pre-1980

Let's sum up some of the arguments..

 

It's claimed the British League was so much tougher in the 70's..

It's claimed the standard of rider was better in the 70's.

It's claimed the bikes were harder to ride in the 70's.

 

Yet in the 70's, folk who had never rode a bike could go down to the local track, have a go and instantly impress, within weeks appearing in a team. Many times such a tale has been told in Backtrack.

 

Would the same happen now? Absolutely no chance.

So where does that take the discussion ? It seems to support your argument that the 70's BL was ,very competitive at the top end but weak in the lower regions hence a fair number of riders were on high averages and that would only be possible if others were on an particularly low average. That's what I would say from memory and apparently from statistics.

[BWitcher]

You are probably right - there are no Second Half Events for youngsters to test themselves. The Second Half was a great learning aid to any young aspiring Speedway Rider. They now have to trail around the Country looking for Training Schools instead of getting a couple of rides a week at their local Track.

 

However - if Second Halves were taking place at every Track every week - in my opinion you would be wrong.

 

Simply put - there is not the Track time available these days for youngsters to develop. It is no coincidence, to me, that the demise of the Second Half and the rise of the Grand Prix Series seems to directly mirror the decline of British Speedway.

 

You didn't read the post WK.

 

2nd halves and track time didn't come into it. Riders were able to get into teams in a very short space of time, without much track time. That suggests the standard wasn't very high.

I was talking about pre-1980

 

So where does that take the discussion ? It seems to support your argument that the 70's BL was ,very competitive at the top end but weak in the lower regions hence a fair number of riders were on high averages and that would only be possible if others were on an particularly low average. That's what I would say from memory and apparently from statistics.

 

It wasn't competitive at the top end. There were most of the worlds best riders, but the whole point is it wasn't all that competitive for them as they rarely raced each other. As we've discussed there are pluses and minuses to that.

 

The point of the post was just to point out some of the inconsistencies in the arguments put forward.

 

Don't get me wrong, I would much prefer there to be a large league now, with the number of teams/riders there were riding in the UK back in the 70's and I also miss the excitement that Sidney and others alluded to that you would have when a team visited with their top stars.. I'm just realistic enough to understand that the 'system' created more stars.

 

This has actually got me thinking over the last couple of days. You often see people posting they want to see a return to the old 13 heat formula.. something I was always against (2 races less for starters) as you wouldn't see the top riders against each other so often... but perhaps we see too much of it. It's even more the case under the new format we are seeing in the EL. There is no 'magic' surrounding the top riders anymore.. no 'aura'. Perhaps a return to a system where you rarely saw them get beat would bring that back?

[E I Addio]

 

This has actually got me thinking over the last couple of days. You often see people posting they want to see a return to the old 13 heat formula.. something I was always against (2 races less for starters) as you wouldn't see the top riders against each other so often... but perhaps we see too much of it. It's even more the case under the new format we are seeing in the EL. There is no 'magic' surrounding the top riders anymore.. no 'aura'. Perhaps a return to a system where you rarely saw them get beat would bring that back?

It's entirely personal preference of course but for myself I much prefer the 15 heat formula. I like to see the top men race each other more than once, but more importantly it gives a side more of a chance to get back into the match if they have a bit of bad luck midway, especially with the present scoring formula for league points. I find it keeps the interest if a side have a comfortable lead hat heat 12 but you know you still have to face the other sides big guns in heats 13 and 15 .

 

Again speaking personally , I don't necessarily share Sidney's view of the past . I am probably enjoying the sport as much now as I have ever done. I think what has destroyed the aura surrounding top riders is so much televised speedway, in fact I haven't bothered watching the SWC for a couple of years and I probably only watch about a third of the GP's.and half the Sky meetings these days.

 

For me, speedwáy is a sport you have to see live. The noise and smell creates atmosphere and the is not the same sensation of speed on the telly. Most importantly I don't think one sees the motorcycle skills the same through the lens of a camera. I know I keep banging on about Petr Karlsson but quite honestly I could enjoy watching him ride round on his own. I tend to look for details like the way he blips his throttle to find traction and the lines he rides. Matej Zagar and Mikkel Bech are others that have great control over their bikes that one doesn't appreciate on TV . Bomber is another one. People complain about him but I watch him a Lakeside where he always gets a bad start then he can ride inch perfect to get inside someone. To me these are all the signs of great riders in any generation but they are skills that don't really come across in TV broadcasts.

 

So for me good riders are good riders whatever, their era. They all have two arms two legs and a head, plus a certain amount of talent. What I don't believe is that in the 70's we had a league of supermen who had an abundance of talent that modern riders don't have.

 

To my mind though, the biggest threat to the future of the sport is the over exposure on TV which means that people can sit in their armchairs and watch a match almost every night of the week without ever going through the turnstiles.

[BWitcher]

While I agree with much of what you say E I, it should be noted that the decline of speedway, particularly in the UK began long before TV came along.

 

As regards PK, not going to argue with you at all on that point, although I would say, if only you had seen him on a weekly basis when he was younger

[moxey63]

 

Let's sum up some of the arguments..

 

It's claimed the British League was so much tougher in the 70's..

It's claimed the standard of rider was better in the 70's.

It's claimed the bikes were harder to ride in the 70's.

 

Yet in the 70's, folk who had never rode a bike could go down to the local track, have a go and instantly impress, within weeks appearing in a team. Many times such a tale has been told in Backtrack.

 

Would the same happen now? Absolutely no chance.

 

 

Before I go on... it should be "had never ridden a bike" not "had never rode a bike." But schools and education weren't as good in the olden days, I'm suppsoing.

 

Now, there aren't that many riders who, in the 70s, turned up with a bike and were in the team within weeks. Probably they had some form of motorcycle experience before hand and had to progress through second halves. Can't see any person being good enough to warrant a team spot within weeks.

 

Then again, the likes of Craig Cook, the Worralls (and many more) have managed to do so in this day of easier-to-ride machines and tracks. They have motorcycling backgrounds.

[BWitcher]

 

 

Before I go on... it should be "had never ridden a bike" not "had never rode a bike." But schools and education weren't as good in the olden days, I'm suppsoing.

 

Now, there aren't that many riders who, in the 70s, turned up with a bike and were in the team within weeks. Probably they had some form of motorcycle experience before hand and had to progress through second halves. Can't see any person being good enough to warrant a team spot within weeks.

 

Then again, the likes of Craig Cook, the Worralls (and many more) have managed to do so in this day of easier-to-ride machines and tracks. They have motorcycling backgrounds.

 

Always the sign of a losing argument when you have to resort to grammatical errors.

 

I suppose riders must have been lying in their Backtrack interviews then.

 

Cook and the Worralls is a fair comparison, after all, it wasn't long before they were in a team too.. at NL level ...

 

Anyway, I think we'll just go round in circles now Moxey.... I will say there is no denying that the 70's and early to mid 80's was a great era for speedway in the UK. Big crowds, the perception of their being so many fantastic riders around.made every meeting exciting. I think we can all agree that we would all be happy if the sport could return to such halcyon days.

[customhouseregular]

 

Always the sign of a losing argument when you have to resort to grammatical errors.

 

I suppose riders must have been lying in their Backtrack interviews then.

 

Cook and the Worralls is a fair comparison, after all, it wasn't long before they were in a team too.. at NL level ...

 

Anyway, I think we'll just go round in circles now Moxey.... I will say there is no denying that the 70's and early to mid 80's was a great era for speedway in the UK. Big crowds, the perception of their being so many fantastic riders around.made every meeting exciting. I think we can all agree that we would all be happy if the sport could return to such halcyon days.

Re your last paragraph BW...I'm with you there.

[The White Knight]

It's entirely personal preference of course but for myself I much prefer the 15 heat formula. I like to see the top men race each other more than once, but more importantly it gives a side more of a chance to get back into the match if they have a bit of bad luck midway, especially with the present scoring formula for league points. I find it keeps the interest if a side have a comfortable lead hat heat 12 but you know you still have to face the other sides big guns in heats 13 and 15 .

 

Again speaking personally , I don't necessarily share Sidney's view of the past . I am probably enjoying the sport as much now as I have ever done. I think what has destroyed the aura surrounding top riders is so much televised speedway, in fact I haven't bothered watching the SWC for a couple of years and I probably only watch about a third of the GP's.and half the Sky meetings these days.

 

For me, speedwáy is a sport you have to see live. The noise and smell creates atmosphere and the is not the same sensation of speed on the telly. Most importantly I don't think one sees the motorcycle skills the same through the lens of a camera. I know I keep banging on about Petr Karlsson but quite honestly I could enjoy watching him ride round on his own. I tend to look for details like the way he blips his throttle to find traction and the lines he rides. Matej Zagar and Mikkel Bech are others that have great control over their bikes that one doesn't appreciate on TV . Bomber is another one. People complain about him but I watch him a Lakeside where he always gets a bad start then he can ride inch perfect to get inside someone. To me these are all the signs of great riders in any generation but they are skills that don't really come across in TV broadcasts.

 

So for me good riders are good riders whatever, their era. They all have two arms two legs and a head, plus a certain amount of talent. What I don't believe is that in the 70's we had a league of supermen who had an abundance of talent that modern riders don't have.

 

To my mind though, the biggest threat to the future of the sport is the over exposure on TV which means that people can sit in their armchairs and watch a match almost every night of the week without ever going through the turnstiles.

Well I do.

 

I preferred the "noise and smell" in the old days too - I find Speedway very sanitized today. No individual colour any more, just boring Race Suits with all Riders looking the same and all Bikes looking the same - there is no colour in the Sport any more. :sad:

[BWitcher]

Well I do.

 

I preferred the "noise and smell" in the old days too - I find Speedway very sanitized today. No individual colour any more, just boring Race Suits with all Riders looking the same and all Bikes looking the same - there is no colour in the Sport any more. :sad:

 

Yeah because most team sports have players in random colored outfits don't they.

 

That is one area where speedway HAS progressed for the better.

 

Is there a professional team sport, other than speedway, where the members of a team don't wear the same strip/uniform etc?

[E I Addio]

Well I do.

 

I preferred the "noise and smell" in the old days too - I find Speedway very sanitized today. No individual colour any more, just boring Race Suits with all Riders looking the same and all Bikes looking the same - there is no colour in the Sport any more. :sad:

When I started going there were plenty of old timers telling me the sport was much better in the pre- war and immediate post war period periods when there was a variety of bikes and riding styles with leg trailers and foot forward mixed in the same races, and were of the opinion that it was boring seeing everyone on bikes that looked the same.

 

The point is that like many experiences in life speedway usually seems best when you are young and it is new, and that is what skews our recollection of the past . It's not necessarily riders of the past that were great, it's our memory of them.

[stratton]

Yeah because most team sports have players in random colored outfits don't they.

 

That is one area where speedway HAS progressed for the better.

 

Is there a professional team sport, other than speedway, where the members of a team don't wear the same strip/uniform etc?

They might all have lovely race suits to suit now, but go back to the 60s and 70s they certainly had more TEAM players riders who team rode and were proper team men today is not the same.